Talk:University of Virginia/Archive 3

Removed some promotional material
I have removed some promotional material from one of the picture captions. It is a picture of two students tuxedos with a "Yall Come" sign above their heads. The caption read: "The University's students have a reputation for being from upper class and white collar backgrounds. Yet tuition rates are low, minority enrollments and graduation rates are high, and grants to replace all loans are now guaranteed up to twice the poverty level with AccessUVa." This has #1: no relation to the picture other than some sort of implication or association with elitism, #2: would be considered POV under any standard. Feel free to restore it, but change the tone and make it less vague.

--IRelayer 19:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Everything in that caption is NPOV and sourced in this article. I see no reason to change the wording, or to re-source everything over again. Also, a direct relationship to the picture is not necessary at all on Wikipedia. Uris 23:21, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry...I completely disagree. Referencing some campus program in such a manner is dangerously close to advert/promotional material.  I never said it was unsourced, as it is easy to source an advertisement for a service, although now that you mention it, I do not see a citation either in the caption or in the section that discusses AccessUVA (although I could easily be mistaken).  Since I was obviously not clear enough in my previous comment, the following constitutes a specific breakdown of my complaints about the wording of this caption:


 * "The University's students have a reputation for being from upper class and white collar backgrounds."


 * This is an ongoing issue on this page, it seems. I won't touch it other than to say that without the rest of the text, it does not belong in the caption, so it needs to be reworded.


 * In sourced material by U.S. News. Uris 06:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * "Yet tuition rates are low"


 * Low compared to what? The national average?  This needs to be spelled out.


 * Already spelled out in sourced material by U.S. News. Uris 06:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * ", minority enrollments and graduation rates are high,"


 * Again, high compared to what? The national average?  This also needs to be spelled out.


 * And again, Already spelled out in sourced material by Journal of Blacks in Higher Education. Uris 06:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * " and grants to replace all loans are now guaranteed up to twice the poverty level with AccessUVa."


 * Blatant promotion of the program. "with AccessUVA" is particularly problematic in that it sounds like adspeak...like "checking is free with Washington Mutual's AccessChecking.  This should be deleted or reworded.


 * Okay, I'll remove the "program" from the sentence. So-called "Blatant promotion" of the fact that grants are guaranteed to replace all loans is not a bad thing, as it is encyclopedic. Uris 06:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The implication (to me) is that, despite the "reputation" (going back to the first sentence) of elitism, UVA thinks poor people and minorities are welcome. Do you see my problem with this?  It is automatically POV in my opinion.


 * Strange implication to you, sorry you feel that way. Uris 06:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Thus, I am rewording the text myself. Thank you for your opinion and your genuine desire to address the issues that I presented.  I know this seems like a nitpick to some people, but I am trying my best to keep WP's university pages from becoming recruiting tools and extensions of the university's own website.


 * Reworded it back, minus the AccessUVa mention, as these other points lack substance. Uris 06:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * --IRelayer 23:55, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Distinguished alumni
Why have Malkmus and Kerney been taken out of the distinguished alumni section? They are certainly as well known as, e.g., Albright, Olsen, and Eskandarian. Also, is the sentence "Those involved in the sciences have helped to cure yellow fever, and to "crack the code" of DNA." necessary? It doesn't identify any distinguished alumni (and in fact doesn't make clear whether it is referring to faculty or to alumni). Cka3n 00:54, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd also like to endorse myself as someone who should be listed as a distinguished alumnus. ;-) --EEMeltonIV 01:14, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree that they are as well known as those soccer players, but that probably means the names of the soccer players should be removed. Malkmus and Kerney aren't distinguished enough to make this list either (IMO we should at least limit it to "all-stars" in their respective professions, or those with Platinum records, etc.) Uris 12:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I've removed the names of the soccer players but left their accomplishment, similar to how the 3 astronauts are listed.Uris 13:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree that the sentence "Those involved in the sciences have helped to cure yellow fever, and to "crack the code" of DNA." is unnecessary (and unusually ostentatious).--IRelayer 04:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Already removed it, forgot to mention here. Uris 06:30, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, my--DISAGREE, DISAGREE, DISAGREE. At the very least Malkmus should be in there. He was a founding member of one of the most influential indie rock bands of all time (Pavement). Pavement absolutely meets the standards for notablility and therefore so does Malkmus.--Velvet elvis81 15:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Looking over the Pavement page, I think there's enough there now to include Malkmus. Added him back in. Uris 23:56, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I really wonder if Katie Couric demands a picture, and if she's going to get a picture, I think at the very least Ted Kennedy should get a picture. It is just odd that the picture lineup is currently: a president, former attorney general, secretary general of the EU, a former host of the Today show.

Rhodes scholars?
While I realize that UVa may have more produced Rhodes than other state-affiliated universities, I have some concern that the current version (which cites a UVa news release) is perhaps a little too close to advertising.

1. Although the service academies are clearly different than the traditional public university, they too are "universit[ies] that [are] predominantly funded by public means through a national or regional government." That UVa would not include them (and thereby arrogate for itself the top-ranked position) is not terribly surprising. In any case, it seems to me that the article is only helped by including additional context, e.g., information about U-Va's spot in the overall rankings.

2. Why is 45 historic? Although that is the most of any non-academy public university, it is nowhere near the most overall, and indeed I think it is less than a fifth of the total of the leading school overall.

Cka3n 05:09, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Historic there as the adjective didn't mean a "historic number" as in "great"... just the historical number, like the number of Rhodes Scholars U.Va. has had in its history. Maybe it is ambiguous, so I've changed the wording to make it clearer.


 * As for using a U.Va. source, I think that's fine. We trust the U.S. Census Bureau to keep us up to date with the demographics of its own country, so we should be able to trust U.Va. with measuring its own internal statistics. I don't think there are many outside press releases about each university's Rhodes Scholars. Uris 00:00, 9 December 2006 (UTC)


 * A source is a source, and U-Va is about as good a source as you can find on this information. My concern was mostly that U-Va is (ostensibly) promoting itself, and so by taking only information from U-Va and not providing any context for it, we permit Wikipedia to be used as an advertising forum (akin to when newspapers run press releases).  It is a shame that there is no useful and comprehensive repository of rhodes data.


 * In any case, two of your recent changes (re: public and re: historic) resolve my specific concerns. Cka3n 00:50, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Board of Visitors
As best I can tell, most of the Virginia public schools' BOVs have actual authority - see, e.g., http://www.vmi.edu/show.asp?durki=542, http://www.bov.vt.edu/, and http://bov.gmu.edu/.

Moreover, there are some schools outside of Virginia whose BOVs have actual authority - see, e.g., http://www.citadel.edu/r3/bov/about/index.shtml.

Finally, it certainly appears that most of the BOVs with authority are in the state of Virginia. However, I can't tell whether this is a meaningful distinction, or if Virginia just calls its BOVs what other states call their Regent boards, etc. If the article is going to include a reference to the BOVs relatively unique nature, it should explain the source of the distinction.

Cka3n 22:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

picture of the "honor code"?
Hoping that some Hoos (or other people who've been to the university) will come across this page once in a while... Could you possibly take a picture of one of the signs with the honor code from one of the classrooms? (Or any other good picture visualizing the honor code or generally UVa traditions... :o)) If you could, uploading your picture directly to the Wikimedia Commons would be great. If not (if you have a picture and don't want to upload it yourself, don't know how, etc.), feel free to contact me, I'll be happy to help you and/or upload it in your place. It goes without saying that you'll be attributed authorship of your picture in either way (unless you don't want that). Thanks a lot for your help!! --Ibn Battuta 20:44, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

... or other pictures, esp. of the pavilions?
I've entered the German article into the current writing competition at the German Wikipedia. So if any of you has (or could take) pictures of other parts of UVa and would be willing to publish them on Wikipedia--thanks a lot! (I'd be esp. interested in the pavilions: I'm dreaming of getting pictures for each of them in order to set up a table structure representing the lawn and to point to the architectural differences etc. -- but nor do we have so far pictures of North Grounds... etc. etc.) Please feel free to contact me for any infos, help, whatever! Publishing pictures here is easy, and I'll be happy to help you with the upload as well as choosing a license you like. In short: Go for it :o)) --Ibn Battuta 19:08, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Student count
Please keep in mind that "because article X does(n't) have information Y" is not a compelling reason (not) to include information in an article. Far-reaching changes get made all the time to the numbers, statistics and other information covered by various templates and article classes. --EEMeltonIV 06:54, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Chardonnay
The picture of "the Rotunda in the reflection of a glass of Chardonnay" is absolutely pointless. I am removing it, as it has nothing to do with the article whatsoever. --MosheA 18:49, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I totally agree. Keep it removed.--Velvet elvis81 17:59, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't say it was "absolutely pointless" (I took it as an illustration of drinking, albeit not the best one), but I agree with you that the removal is nothing to be mourned :o) ... --Ibn Battuta 23:23, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Church and Education
I made an edit a few days ago saying that the University of Pennsylvania was America's first secular institution, because it accepted students of all faiths and did not make religion part of its core curriculum. My edit was reverted, saying that UVA is in fact America's first secular institution, because it did not teach religion as part of the curriculum at all. I am just confused - I can accept that "secular" means "not teaching religion," but it seems dubious to claim that because of that fact, UVA was the first to "separate religion from education." It seems that if UPenn didn't force religion on people, then they effectively did that as well. Right? Chiwara 22:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

GA comment
For the article to maintain its GA status, the copyrighted images need detailed fair use rationales. Look to other passed GA/FAs for examples. Let me know on my talk page if you have any questions. --Nehrams2020 07:04, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:UVa-official-logo.png
Image:UVa-official-logo.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 04:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

german wikipedia
note that the German article is a featured article. Maybe someone can have a look at it and suggest some improvements for the English one... --217.235.39.164 20:07, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * That page has a lot of images that this article doesn't. Would anyone be opposed to me starting a gallery at the bottom of the English page?  —jakarr 20:58, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Grounds
I just did a revert on a contribution from a JMU IP that changed Grounds to Campus. I'm in the unfortunate position, however, of having no reliable source explaining why the UVA "campus" is traditionally called Grounds. Can someone help? Tjarrett (talk) 03:09, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I just restored text in this selection deleted in revision 197874002 by Special:Contributions/204.111.211.76. There may be a case to be made for moving some of this to its own article but I think this should be discussed here before the content is deleted. Tjarrett (talk) 12:41, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

List of Fraternities and Sororities
Almost every other college and university on Wikipedia has a separate section about their Greek life (or a section within Student Life) and a list of each fraternity and sorority as well as greek-lettered honor societies, such as Phi Beta Kappa and Tau Beta Pi. This is an addition to the page that is needed in the near future. ~ Triberocker (talk) 16:22, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


 * While there is probably some merit in this idea, I wonder whether it needs to go into the main article, which is quite lengthy already. Perhaps a separate list article? This is how the secret societies are handled today. Tjarrett (talk) 03:25, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

"At Charlottesville"?
I don't believe that the official name of the University includes "at Charlottesville"; accordingly I'm reverting the anonymous edit by 71.77.39.161. If we're going to make this change, we should cite a source. Tjarrett (talk) 13:29, 17 March 2008 (UTC)


 * You are correct, there is no location specified in the name. It's one reason why the renaming of Clinch Valley College was so controversial. Unlike the State University of New York system, or the University of California system, there is only one University of Virginia. 1995hoo (talk) 15:08, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Linkspam
The photos by Steven Gong linked on this article are beautiful, but to my eye the link fails the style guidelines for external links. Unless there is a strong reason to keep the link I'm going to remove it. Tjarrett (talk) 19:26, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Honor system
Just removed two edits--one changed a factual description of an honor referendum to a non-NPOV perspective, and the other contained unencyclopedic content (a phone number to call to join the honor committee). Additional content about the UVA honor system is welcomed, but it needs to follow the rules. Also it may be more appropriate in an article dedicated to the subject. Tjarrett (talk) 14:33, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

How is it highly selective?
If the University accepts 34 % of applicants how is it selective. That is 34 out of 100 people getting in which is a very very high number. All top universities which are ACTUALLY Selective accept far lesser than 20%. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.99.178.192 (talk) 17:35, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I think we need to check the figures. The source for the 34% figure cites it as a "selectivity rate," but it doesn't jibe with the math: 18,013 applications for 3170 spots in the Class of 2011 makes a 17.5% acceptance rate. 34% must factor in transfers and applicants for graduate programs. We should clean up the paragraph about admissions, and then we should either support the introductory sentence or remove the phrase "highly selective" from the opening. Tjarrett (talk) 19:18, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

34% is selective. Just by using the definition of selective, the fact that they decline people makes it selective. If you want to use the idea of selective as "hard to get into," then, yes, UVa is hard to get into. It isn't the MOST selective school in the country, but it's likely in the top 50 out of over 1000 or so colleges and universities. That's "selective" to me. Also, % accepted doesn't necessarily translate into selectivity. A school which has an average SAT score of 900/1600 and average GPA of 2.5 with a 10% admission rate is less selective than UVa. Finally, not everyone who gets into UVa chooses to attend. Thats why the admission rate is 34%. Only about half of those selected go to the school. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.116.209.255 (talk) 03:37, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

UVA Seal
I reverted the UVA seal substitution because the original image came from the official UVA logo site--also please note the above discussion about non-free images. Tjarrett (talk) 01:36, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Literary Societies
Jefferson Society is not the oldest such organization in the country. I think Phi Kappa at University of Georgia is the oldest (in any case, I'm sure it's older since it was founded in 1820). Furthermore, that would make the Jefferson Society at least the 3rd oldest Greek-lettered organization, after Phi Beta Kappa and Phi Kappa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.111.193.150 (talk) 07:03, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the Dialectic & Philanthropic Societies at UNC are the oldest... founded in 1795, long before UVA ever even existed. The Jefferson Society is at best the fourth oldest debating/literary society in the country, after the Dialectic Society, Philanthropic Society, and Phi Kappa. I'm deleting the offending phrase. 213.1.210.26 (talk) 09:35, 7 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Did either of you bother to read the passage? It says "continuously-existing".  Both UNC and UGa were shuttered for several years during the Civil War.  U-Va. (and this society) have never stopped operating. Omnibus (talk) 14:01, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The Whig-Clio of Princeton also claims to be continuosly operating, and is certainly older. Either way, I'm not sue that the Jefferson Society is a central aspect of the University of Virginia deserving a lede. I am going to be WP:BOLD and delete it for now unless it can be shown that it is in fact true from non-UVA sources, and perhaps after a discussion about whether this is oneof the two or three most important facts about the university. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TNplinko (talk • contribs) 05:34, 21 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree that while it deserves mention somewhere, it doesn't deserve to be in the first couple of paragraphs. It's not THAT big a facet of student life. 1995hoo (talk) 13:18, 21 May 2009 (UTC)


 * the oldest literary society I'm aware of is the Philolexian Society(Dolemite74 (talk) 01:46, 9 April 2010 (UTC))

UVA's Endowment
The endowment of 5.1 billion listed in this article is based on a page that includes the University's equity in its total worth. This includes the real estate value of all of the school's properties and comprises over 70% of the 5.1 billion mentioned on the page. The school's actual endowment is between 1 and 2 billion dollars though I don't have a reference for that fact.


 * This is simply not true, which is why you don't have a reference. :( Omnibus (talk) 02:43, 3 February 2009 (UTC)


 * From I understand that there is an "endowment pool" and there is a "general endowment." I'm not familiar enough with the conventions to suggest which to use, but the current figure listed on the page seems to be the total value of the "endowment pool". Iman2464 (talk) 21:39, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

From article: "the endowment of the University of Virginia is the second largest among public universities."

Texas, Texas A&M, California, and Michigan all outrank Virginia. See: https://chronicle.com/article/CollegeUniversity/136933/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.54.90.227 (talk) 08:29, 24 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Okay. So its the fifth largest. Say so and hang this cite on that sentence. ElijahBosley  (talk &#9758;)  12:16, 24 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I went ahead and made the change. Does seem odd though, that the number keeps changing depending on which newspaper reports it. U Va just completed a $3 billion capital campaign (late, but they did get the $3 billion they wanted) so I suppose that should be mentioned too. ElijahBosley (talk &#9758;)  12:29, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

School Pages
Is there any coherent work at bringing together the elements of school pages? 137.54.5.14 (talk) 16:25, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Enrollment numbers
Would someone please explain why they keep reverting the enrollment numbers to the current incorrect numbers in the info box? The numbers do not match the numbers in the citation--they are nearly 5000 students off. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.116.208.58 (talk) 03:19, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Because we're reporting the full-time students. U-Va. is unique in its reported stats in that they include a unique Semester at Sea program... those students are U-Va. students for that time, but never visit Charlottesville. To include them in the size of the university would be incredibly misleading, since the program is so large and since they don't take any classes at the actual school. Omnibus (talk) 14:04, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Hello, Perhaps we should upload a photo of the Dalai Lama and Archbishop Tutu during the 1998 conference at UVa? There is a great photo of Tutu sitting in a rocking chair on the Lawn, with the Dalai Lama rocking his chair. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.218.174.250 (talk) 16:12, 17 May 2009 (UTC)