Talk:Unreal Engine/Archive 1

Few minor changes
I thought Unreal Engine was a name, why doesn't "Engine" start with a capital E?


 * I was thinking the same thing. It is the engine for Unreal, making it the Unreal engine, but since that is the actual name the second E should be capitalized in my opinion as well. Retodon8 09:48, 24 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I changed my mind due to what Kuronekoyama said in the "Few minor changes" section below. In general it is just an "engine", no capital needed, but when referring to a specific incarnation, where it is the actual name, it's "Unreal Engine X". Retodon8 16:45, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Since the name Unreal is both used for the game as the engine. That uis why they also say: Built on Unreal technology. But my discussion is about mentioning the Unreal Runtime engine. It is a very good visualization engine for anything else than game development.
 * On their website, it is written UnrealEngine in CamelCase style. I think we should rename the title. 16@r 20:09, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Four minor changes:
 * NCSoft is headquartered in Seoul, South Korea--not Austin, TX. NCSoft Austin, a wholly-owned subsidiary, is based there.
 * Webzen has recently announced a pending MMORPG project entitled Endless Saga which also uses Unreal Engine 3. This is the same studio that is developing Huxley, another game listed in this article.  Interestingly, Huxley is being developed for PC and XBox 360, while Endless Saga is being developed for PC and PlayStation 3.
 * The correct terminology (as dictated by Epic Games, at least) is Unreal Engine 3, not the Unreal 3 engine. It's a matter of word order, not capitalization, so I left the capitalization alone...  However, it is so named because it's the third iteration of the Unreal engine (Unreal Engine 3) as opposed to because it's the engine that will be used by the game Unreal 3 (Unreal 3 engine).  So far, there has been no official word on the existence of an Unreal 3.
 * To that effect, I also changed a reference from Unreal 3 technology demo to Unreal Engine 3 technology demo. The screenshots most people have been attributing to Unreal 3 seem to actually come from Gears of War. --Kuronekoyama 05:24, August 3, 2005 (UTC)

Postal 3
Running With Scissors recently announced Postal 3 powered by the Unreal Engine 3. Should this be added? --Mincetro 06:18, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Whyever not? I've added it. But if you could add a reference for that (ie. the url of whatever you read), that would be great. ··gracefool |&#9786; 12:16, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Reality Engine
I'm not sure the "Incorporates Artificial Studios's Reality Engine" fact on UE3 listing is correct. Epic hired Tim (who created the Reality engine) to work for them (and probably incorporate whichever existing or new techniques that make sense to the engine since it's part of his knowledge), not to merge the engines or something. It doesn't "incorporate" the reality engine. --zeh 02:08, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Minor Changes Made to Section "Unreal Engine 3.5"
Reformatted the section, fixed grammatical errors and removed unwarranted speculations and duplicated information. Please use the history tab for comparison. ME$ENGER 00:12, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Someone re-added the speculations. I removed them again. --asqueella 20:38, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

took out "deus ex: the conspiracy"
This is the same game as "deus ex," obviously. If it is written because it is referring to the console port, then shouldn't it be tabbed underneath it?

Someone added in "deus ex: the conspiracy" again without explaining why. Please state your reasoning for doing so as this is clearly the same game as "deus ex." Again, if it's because you are referring to the console version, then it is in fact the same game, just ported; both even link to the same page.

Unreal Engine 3.0 Section
I'm not an expert on the engine, but can somebody confirm my suspicion that the section is shoddily written at best? I'm fairly certain on at least one instance the author confused the same entity with different colloquialisms as separate entities entirely (the bit about virtual displacement mapping - aren't offset mapping and parallax [which he misspells as "palallax"] maping the same thing?), not to mention the missing spaces before the parentheses and the unecessary capitalization in his list. Don't want to edit it on the off chance that I am mistaken. --RpgActioN 13:46, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I fixed up that section, there were a ton of redundancies. It's now in a list.

The huge list of "Unannounced titles" is pretty ugly, and doesn't provide much useful information. Should it be removed, or maybe put into a block list? Beasticles 19:35, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Unreal Engine 1.0(build 1~226)
Unreal 1(build 220~226f) Star Trek The Next Generation : Klingon Honor Guard(build 219)

Unreal Engine 1.5(build 300~436)
Unreal Tournament(build 400~451) Wheel of Time(build 300~333)

Unreal Engine 2.0(build 500~2227)
Unreal Warfare(build 633~927) Unreal Tournament 2003(build 2107~2225) Unreal Engine 2 Runtime Edition(build 2226~2227) UDN code(build 1107~2227) = pure Unreal Engine 2.0 code. Unreal 2(build 829~2001) Unreal 2 XMP(build 2226)

Unreal Engine 2.5(build 2500~3369)
Unreal Tournament 2004(build 3186~3369) Unreal Engine 2.5(build 2500~3369) = pure Unreal Engine 2.5 code.

Unreal Engine 3.0(build 3500~????)
Unreal Engine 3.0(build 3500~????) = pure Unreal Engine 3.0 code. Unreal Tournament 2007(build ????~????) Gears of War(build ????~????)

Unreal Engine 3.5
after version of the UT2007 final patch. Unreal 3 and Epic's next titles.

unannounced titles
How important are these sections? They seem pretty content-free, and if they're unannounced, that suggests the question of how they're cited to be listed on this page. I propose deleting both the single unannounced license and multiple unannounced license sections. Nysin 12:32, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I waited a while, saw a few other edits indicating other editors had the opportunity to respond to this, observed no objections, and thus have removed the aforementioned sections. Further, I removed the utterly pointless "and a few other projects" that terminated the list of games using each of the engine versions. This was reverted previously with no explanation. These final list items should be justified if they are to be re-added. Nysin 07:25, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * My edit at was reverted, again, in, without any explanation whatsoever. I have provided reasons for their removal. Why should they stay? Nysin 08:59, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Some more issues with the bits I keep removing: the "some ..." and "many ..." violate Wikipedia guidelines (other portions of the article violate Avoid_peacock_terms, as well, but that's not so prominent in what I'm dealing with at the moment.). They don't cite their sources either, which "is mandated by No original research and Verifiability, which are policy. This means that any material that is challenged and has no source may be removed by any editor". Maybe the third or fourth time attempt, I can elicit more than a commentless revert on the part of User:Unico master 15. Nysin 17:41, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * True to form, User:Unico master 15 has again reverted with no comment: . Maybe, in some beautiful future, this talk section can become a dialogue rather than a monologue. I've now provided several reasons for my edit, and gotten no response. Nysin 21:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yet another commentless revert: . Nysin 17:22, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Api style or not
Regarding the citation of not being an api-style engine.

Something along these lines has been said by Michael V. Capps, the president of Epic Games, on the mailing list of Unreal technology. I don't think I can copy his mail here, because it's a closed mailing list.

Engine generations naming conventions
There's no such thing as the Unreal Engine 1.5 or 3.5. All pre-UE2 games are based off "Unreal Engine 1", while GoW uses Unreal Engine 3, which was designed for PC and consoles alike. The only special console version is Unreal Engine 2.X for Microsoft's Xbox, which is used in Unreal Championship 2: The Liandri Conflict.

To quote the Unreal Technology Licensing FAQ: I'm confused – is this the UT2004 Engine, the Unreal Warfare Engine, or the Unreal 2 Engine?

The Unreal Engine encompasses three generations of technology, each focused on a major generation of console platforms and PC hardware. Unreal Engine 1 powered Epic's original Unreal and Unreal Tournament games. Unreal Engine 2 powers Unreal 2, UT2003, and UT2004; and an Xbox-exclusive enhanced version of it is powering Epic's upcoming Unreal Championship 2. Unreal Engine 3 is the basis of an unannounced next-generation title from Epic Games, aimed at upcoming consoles and 2006 PC's. Wormbo 14:26, 2 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It's not just an issue in this article. Follow the wikilinks to some of the games listed as using UE 1.5, for example, and they also claim UE 1.5 here. This is distributed over dozens of Wikipedia articles. Further - what are the sources for any of those claims of some specific game using a specific engine? If they can't be produced, those entire sections might need to go. Nysin 14:34, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Three points to be noted...
81.211.217.36 09:48, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Is the UE 3.5 confirmed/verified to use DX11? Do you have a clear vision of what MS is planning for DX10? Do you realize that, in the actual form the whole thing is contradictory? Gears of War is XBOX360 flagship title and XBOX360 is not even fully DX10 (consider it DX10-) as far as I have heard of it.
 * Since there are already titles annunced for unreal engine 3, targeting DX10 would be a bit too risky (in business terms) since there's not an instelled base yet. No doubt a DX10 renderpath could be provided as option but this would not be a target. Is this verified?
 * Supporting SM4 seems a better choice for 3.5
 * Are there some good references on the formats used? People used to hack Q3 .bsp a lot. In the actual form, this page reports pretty little value.

Unreal_Engine_technology
Starting from the top of the article: what's the source for this section? seems to discuss only UE2 and newer (though it does undermine the other talk page comments about x.5 intermediate versions not really existing), and ditto. , from the wiki source cited, discusses something of the versions, and appears to be the predominant source here, but emphatically is not a reliable source: "Posts to bulletin boards, Usenet, and wikis, or messages left on blogs, should not be used as primary or secondary sources. This is in part because we have no way of knowing who has written or posted them, and in part because there is no editorial oversight or third-party fact-checking. In addition, in the case of wikis, the content of an article could change at any moment."Unless either one can find the sources behind that page, or find the information elsewhere, it looks like the bulk of this article has to go. In fact, it looks like this article might run afoul of WP:COPYVIO. Nysin 12:34, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Copyvio comparison
Complete with the silly "etc"s that I've finally (with some appreciated help) managed apparently to extricate from this article:

Is this (and those interested can continue) sufficiently convincing, or? I'm starting to lean towards an AfD actually. Nysin 13:18, 4 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Their copyright statement doesn't allow this sort of copying. Nysin 14:45, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

that's unrealwiki's unreal engine pages copyright by my friends. he's a game programmers of uses unreal engine games. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Unico master 15 (talk • contribs) 17:28, September 4, 2006


 * Your permission to copy something your friend(s) has copyright over doesn't seem likely to be legally binding. You've produced no documentation of said relationship anyway, nor of your friend's (or friends? I can't tell whether it's sloppy grammar or plural) having copyright over said material. Thus, given the statement in the wiki's copyright statement that "Basically, authors retain ownership. Permissions are extended to Fair Use on the World Wide Web. Permission is granted to reference, or link to, content on this site. Do not copy content on this site unless within the bounds of Fair Use."Your statement looks rather ill-founded, unless every potential editor on UnrealWiki is your friend. Finally, regardless of copyright issues, wikis are not reliable sources; see my response in the previous talk page section for more detail. Either by copyright infringement or lacking a reliable source, the bulk of this article is utterly unsupported to Wikipedia's standards. My edits were perfectly justified. Nysin 17:59, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Unesco master 15: First, please sign your talk-page edits by typing four tildes -- like this: ~ -- which will get automatically converted into a signature and timestamp when you save the edit. Thanks. Second, Nysin is right about two things:
 * Wikipedia only accepts text that is released under the GFDL. We can't take copyrighted text, even if it's your friends'. If they want to explicitly release the text under the GFDL on their wiki, then we could in theory use the text, with attribution.
 * Note that I said "in theory". Nysin is also right that that an article on another wiki is not a Reliable Source. The core Verifiability page says that information not verifiable from reliable sources does not belong in Wikipeida. &mdash;Bunchofgrapes (talk) 19:01, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I am a UnrealWiki documentator - 3d engineer


 * Okay, and? The salient responses have already been made here. Nysin 20:24, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Specifically, please please read No Original Research and Verifiability. Wikipedia can't accept information you just assert to be true, and you also still have unaddressed copyright concerns. &mdash;Bunchofgrapes (talk) 20:38, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Available reliable sources
So far, I've found: Unrealtechnology.com has pages on Unreal Engine 2, Unreal Engine 2x, Unreal Engine 3, a list of games released partitioned into first-generation (UE1? It doesn't really say though.) games and everything else, and finally some disambiguation between "the UT2004 Engine, the Unreal Warfare Engine, or the Unreal 2 Engine" at their FAQ.

DevMaster (don't know anything specifically about it, but it looks plausible as a reliable source) has fairly detailed engine information pages on UE2 and UE3 (though not UE1 or any of the UE x.5 versions).

Epic Games has a couple of additional pages which describe, again, UE2, the UE2 runtime, and a roadmap which makes the only reference to any x.5 version I've seen in an official-looking source (still, I've seen no reference anywhere but that unrealwiki site to 1.5, and the actual link to the portion of the site in question requires a login I don't have to check).

Beyond those, there are a smattering of specific sites with press releases of some game or another using licenced Unreal Engine code, but those couldn't really form a core of an article, so I'm ignoring them for now.

Thus, it appears there's sufficient sourced material available for an article of a similar structure and approximate content as the current one, if only the rampant copyvio could be culled (which would remove nearly the entirety of the article, though I'm not sure about how Wikipedia the notion of copyrighting lists of games - I guess similarly to other text?).

However, I would propose removing entirely the 1.5 section and the the 3.5 section, reducing the 2.5 section to the stub-paragraph or so it seems to be worth from the reliable sources I can find (if someone else can find sources for those, great...), and looking rather carefully at, for example, the UE2.0 summary text which appears to be a sort of permuted version of the unrealwiki (pretty much the same sentences in a somewhat different order). Nysin 21:07, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Unreal Engine 2.5


 * Okay. What about 1.5 and 3.5? Further, do you agree that the sections clearly infringing copyright (see the table in this section) should be removed? Nysin 13:44, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Another question:, as mentioned above, does divide the games into "first-generation" (is that UE1?) and others, but not with any finer granularity, and certainly nothing approaching the .5-granularity the article uses now. Can you provide a reliable source for any other such lists of games? Nysin 23:10, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I ask because a couple of days ago I began editing User:Nysin/UE_Draft which aims to remove copyvio material and leave only material supportable via reliable source. If, as far as I can tell, no such source for any distinction finer than UE1/other in reliable sources exists, then I'll reorganize material there accordingly (for example, one-to-one engine version <-> list of games structure wouldn't work anymore), but I'd like to get a response of some sort before I do it. Eventually, of course, I'll go ahead regardless. Nysin 20:59, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay. I'm proceeding under the assumption, supported by my not finding any sort of reasonably populated list and not being pointed to one, that the article should thus be reorganised so not as to rely on such a list. Nysin 16:43, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Correcting build numbers for UE 2.5
The final UE 2.5 build was actually 3371, which fixed support for that one Logitech keyboard with the small display, as the engine would crash when the keyboard driver would attempt to get information from the game. (I forget which keyboard that was.) Torinir  ( Ding my phone  My support calls   E-Support Options  ) 03:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Unreal 1 source code

 * called Unreal Engine
 * available only on PC
 * build start ~ 226

Unreal Tournament source code

 * called Unreal Tournament engine
 * available PC, Dreamcast, PlayStation 2
 * build 300 ~ 436


 * mid 2003, Unreal Engine called "First Generation Unreal Engine" or "Unreal Engine 1" or "Unreal Engine 1.0"
 * mid 2003, Unreal Tournament engine called "Second Generation Unreal Engine" or "Unreal Engine 2" or "Unreal Engine 2.0"


 * late 2003, Unreal and UT engine called "First Generation Unreal Engine" or "Unreal Engine 1"

Unreal Warfare source code

 * called Unreal Warfare engine(released to licensees)
 * available PC, Xbox, PlayStation 2
 * build 500(licensee point start 633). final codedrop is a 927(I develpoed this version for making Sephiroth)
 * bonus : Unreal Championship source code(an offer to licensees)


 * Unreal Warfare cancelled

Unreal Tournament 2003 source code

 * called Unreal Tournament 2003 engine
 * build 1107(released to licensees point 2110) ~ 2225
 * available only PC(this builds are not released consoles)

Unreal Engine 2 Runtime Edition source code

 * called Unreal Engine 2.0
 * build 2226
 * available only PC
 * after bug fixed version released 2227

Unreal Tournament 2004 source code

 * called Unreal Engine 2.5
 * build 2500 ~ 3369(I am take part in Priston Tale 2)
 * available only PC

Unreal Championship 2 source code

 * called Unreal Engine 2X
 * version 100~313(port of UE2.5 and some visual improvements)
 * available only Xbox


 * mid 2003, build 500~2226 called "Third Generation Unreal Engine" or "Unreal Engine 3" or "Unreal Engine 3.0"
 * late 2003, build 500~2226 called "Second Generation Unreal Engine" or "Unreal Engine 2" or "Unreal Engine 2.0"
 * early 2004, UT2004 engine called "Unreal Engine 2.5"
 * early 2004, UC2 engine called "Unreal Engine 2X"

Unreal Engine 3.0 source code

 * called Unreal Engine 3.0
 * build 3500 ~ developing
 * available PC, Xbox 360, PlayStation 3


 * the Unreal Engine 3.0 is not mixing game code, it's pure Unreal Engine 3.0 code

Unreal Engine 3.5

 * after massive upgrade version of UE3 called Unreal Engine 3.5(really)
 * UDN guy says "after UT2007. Epic Games will be using UE3 for Epic's next big PC project. next big enhanced version of UE3 is a significant enhancements. called UE3.5"

I am korean Programmer using Unreal Engine for many titles. making the sephiroth(using UE2, 2001~2002) and take part in priston tale 2(using UE2.5, 2004~2005) and unannounced korean major UE3 titles currently(2006~now) developing it. - 3d engineer


 * Personal knowledge is not an allowed source for articles. Full stop. Please read and understand No original research and Verifiability. If you cannot understand these core policies, you should not edit Wikipedia. If you continue to revert the article to your preferred version, you may be blocked from editing (though it wouldn't be me who does the blocking, since I've been involved in the content dispute here.) &mdash;Bunchofgrapes (talk) 15:26, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Revert again
Leave the cited material in the article, please. Torinir  ( Ding my phone  My support calls   E-Support Options  ) 07:00, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * As far as your own addition, of UT2k4: I don't doubt it uses the Unreal engine, and presumably a similar UE engine as 2k3, can you find a specific citation for that and add the reference, or show which current cited reference states that? It's not (last I checked) in the unrealtechnology.com released games list. Nysin 14:11, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * How about the Unreal Engine Licensing FAQ? Torinir  ( Ding my phone  My support calls   E-Support Options  ) 15:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Looks good. Nysin 15:54, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * BTW, FWIW, the licensing FAQ also notes that the original UT used UE1, and there's no mention of UE1.5. Torinir  ( Ding my phone  My support calls   E-Support Options  ) 02:24, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Found an image that compares the models from UE1, UE2 and UE3
The image shows the Malcolm model from Unreal Tournament, Unreal Tournament 2004 and Unreal Tournament 2007 side by side as a comparison of the engines' model rendering. I think it could work in the article without any issues. Torinir  ( Ding my phone  My support calls   E-Support Options  ) 08:21, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I've uploaded the image and included it in the article. I think it could replace the other three Fair Use Images already included. Torinir  ( Ding my phone  <small style="color:green;">My support calls <sub style="color:blue;">  E-Support Options  ) 09:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * If that image is indeed "part of Epic Games' promotional package of screenshots and concept art for UT2007" then its fair-use argument seems at least as strong as the others' (none are terribly strong though) and having it replace the others seems like a good idea. &mdash;Bunchofgrapes  (talk) 15:16, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It was one of their first promotional images to sell the UE3 engine, and give some extra hype to the upcoming release of 2k7. Torinir <sub style="color:red;"> ( Ding my phone  <small style="color:green;">My support calls <sub style="color:blue;">  E-Support Options  ) 15:19, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Sounds great. &mdash;Bunchofgrapes (talk) 16:16, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I commented out the three older FUI's in the article. I think it's in WP's best interest to restrict the number of fair use images in the article, and one beats three when it shows all three renderers at once. :) Torinir <sub style="color:red;"> ( Ding my phone  <small style="color:green;">My support calls <sub style="color:blue;">  E-Support Options  ) 19:58, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Audio portion of the Unreal Engine 1 features
Any citation about the various audio formats supported by UE1? The original UT and Unreal used proprietary UMX file formats. UMX was a modified MOD audio format with a custom header. The retail version of Tactical Ops and Deus Ex both used UMX files for musical scores as well. Torinir <sub style="color:red;"> ( Ding my phone  <small style="color:green;">My support calls <sub style="color:blue;">  E-Support Options  ) 23:31, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Another thing - UT2kX, Deus Ex: Invisible War and other UE2.x engine games moved to the Ogg Vorbis audio format for in-game music. I cannot say for certain if all the UE2.x games went to OGG or not, however. Torinir <sub style="color:red;"> ( Ding my phone  <small style="color:green;">My support calls <sub style="color:blue;">  E-Support Options  ) 23:34, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Regarding UE1, I'm not sure - but I want to point out that per Talk:Unreal Engine technology, I couldn't find much reliable information on the UE1 engine at all, never mind the audio... I'd like to see sources for anything about it. Nysin 01:06, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmmm... About all I can provide is possibly screenshots of the directory structure of UTx and Deus Ex:Invisible War. If I can find a copy of the original Deus Ex, I could SS its Music folder as well. But other than that, there's not a whole lot to cite. The demos of the UT series games will confirm the music files, however. Torinir <sub style="color:red;"> ( Ding my phone  <small style="color:green;">My support calls <sub style="color:blue;">  E-Support Options  ) 01:12, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It's already referenced in the Unreal article as far as the module format audio. Torinir <sub style="color:red;"> ( Ding my phone  <small style="color:green;">My support calls <sub style="color:blue;">  E-Support Options  ) 04:17, 15 September 2006 (UTC)