Talk:Upper Canada College/Archive 1

UCC Canada's premier school.
69.194.224.121:

Please identify your source that proves that UCC /is/ Canada's leading private school. I don't know how familiar you are with Canadian private schools but I am sure many would argue that schools like UTS, TCS, Ashbury, and Appleby (and those are just schools in Ontario) can compete with (and beat UCC) on many fronts. So, again, please substantiate your claim, otherwise I don't see what is being served (other than perhaps UCC recruitment interests) by insisted on the distinction between "one of Canada's leading..." and "Canada's leading". Carruthers 03:06, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I find the Group of Seven and real estate holding claims rather suspicious. One wonders how a school could justify the security risk/insurance costs of housing an art collection worth $x00 Million. Also, if this mysterious real estate in New York, London, etc. is not being used for operational purposes it would be included in the $30 mil endowment figure and it has rather difficult to see how this is possible. Also, I note that these claims continue to be made by anon posters. Can anyone confirm these two claims? Carruthers 16:13, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * UCC does have landholdings apart from the Toronto campus, namely their wooded science school in Norval, just outside of Georgetown, Ontario (181 hectares, not 680). They also do have a collection of Group of Seven paintings, of which the principal has 12 in his office (and presumably others elsewhere in the school).  As for the rest of it, I was not able to verify any of that information.  Maybe someone could contact the school to confirm?  Darkcore 18:03, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * I found the same information through a Google search as you mentioned above. I know of the Norval property but because they use if for operational purposes it would not be reported as part of the endowment.  On the other hand properties generating revenue elsewhere would.  On the issue of the Go7 paintings would anyone think it unfair to change the statement to "a large collection of original Group of Seven works" or something similar?  It seems difficult to objectively define what "the largest collection" of anything would be (total value, number of pieces, or aggregate size of pieces?). Carruthers 18:12, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * The Norval property does generate some revenue. My private school (which will go unnamed) rented the property from UCC in order to run some of its class-specific activities and I know that other schools did the same thing.  As for the Go7 paintings, the McMichael Art Gallery in Kleinburg, Ontario houses the largest collection of their paintings in terms of numbers.  Darkcore 18:37, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I believe UCC was ranked the as the third best private school in Canada, after Ashbury and a school in Vancouver whose name slips my mind. That report is several years old however. Regardless, your phrasing is preferable. I'm not sure about real estate other than Norval, but they certainly do have a large collection of Art. Somebody needs to get up there and count the sports fields though. I can only think of 9 (as opposed to the 12 previously listed) and that's only if you split up the big ones. The number of tennis courts were also wrong. --Caliper 21:55, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * To which report are you referring, Caliper? I've never seen a comprehensive ranking of Canadian private schools before.  I know the Fraser Institute has a ranking of Canadian secondary schools, but that includes public and separate schools. Darkcore 22:51, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * It's quite possible that that was it, and I just assumed that it was private schools. I didn't see the actual report; it was referenced in a UCC information booklet 5 years ago when I was applying to secondary schools.  It's funny that rankings are so important... if you want go into humanities or languages, the school you want to go to probably wasn't even listed in the top 20. --Caliper 00:59, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

While BSS is a located a few blocks from UCC, I was always told during the duration of my time at the College that Branksome Hall (located to the East, on Mount Pleasant) was UCC's sister school.


 * This Globe article names BSS as UCC's sister school: Darkcore 14:52, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Wow, so many UCC old boys.... --Madchester 03:15, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Sources:

"Upper Canada College, the most exclusive private school in the country." http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20040911/UCC11/TPEducation/

"Upper Canada College, the province’s oldest independent school, will celebrate 175 years as what many consider the foremost private academy for boys in Canada." http://www.ourkids.net/school/artcl2004_ucc175years.shtml

"(he) attended Canada's most elite and prestigious school: Toronto's Upper Canada College." http://www.thespiannet.com/actors/F/fraser_brendan/index.shtml

"A sexual-abuse scandal that has engulfed Canada's most prestigious private school, Upper Canada College." http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/v4/sub/MarketingPage?user_URL=http://www.theglobeandmail.com%2Fservlet%2FArticleNews%2FTPStory%2FLAC%2F20031231%2FUCC31%2FNational%2FIdx&ord=2488099&brand=theglobeandmail&redirect_reason=2&denial_reasons=none&force_login=false

"sending your son to Upper Canada College, the most prestigious boys' school in the country..." http://www.moneysense.ca/planning/education_planning/article.jsp?content=20031107_143425_800

Gents,

I am a student at the school and so I can clear much of this up for you. Before coming here, having spoken to principals of other Canadian schools which we new, and alumni of the school, the school is widely considered among those familiar with it and it's reputation for being an elite playground, as being the best private school in Canada. There are several reasons for this, and not only the press coverage the school receives:

1) It is the oldest 2) It has the largest endowment 3) It dominates in sports

etc..

I could ask the school's archives, press office, etc. for validation of much of what is on this site..

The Principal's office does indeed have 12 Go7 paintings in his office. Other paintings from Go7 are displayed in other prominent areas in the school, such as the Colborne room which is a Victorian-style room for state-type entertaining and meetings as well, attached to the Upper Dining Hall. With respect to Norval, it is used on a regular basis. My orientation to the school was a day at the property, for example, and the younger years spend staggered weeks there later in the year as their academic programs are not as rigorous as ours. Granted, some of the numbers may be exaggerated, such as the number of fields. There is the football field, the cricket pitch, the baseball diamond, Commons field, New field, Lord's field, and the Prep school field. That is only 7, but I don't know how they further split the fields, as many of them are multi-purpose, soo.. Also, I would be careful about questioning holdings like art and such of the school. These are difficult to quantify. I can tell you however that the school does have a large possession of this type of thing, for example, outside Laidlaw Hall is a folded flag that flew at the World Trade Center.

Regarding the "3rd best" report, I have heard that the school's result in the IB are within the top three year after year. The IB average is down one point from last year, however. Also, I can positively tell you that BSS is UCC's sister school. It says it in the BSS handbook, and is well-known by the students here. Relations have been strained recently, yes, but that does not change anything. We do by far more with BSS than any other school. 25 BSS girls came over tonight to play intramural sports with guys from the boarding community (which I am part of.)  Travisritch 03:26, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Travisritch, BSS's HISTORICAL brother school is Trinity College School (TCS) in Port Hope, Ontario (TCS is now co-ed). I think it might have to do with religion, as both schools are High Anglican. Writerchick 02:01, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This is not the leading school. To remain neutral, I do not believe that you can say anything is the best. Are we to make an article saying movie A is the best because one magazine said so? There is no agreemence that this school is the best in the country, but there is one that it is one of the leading schools in the country. Kstingily
 * Well you have already made a mistake. UCC is not the oldest school. I know a school that is older, St. John's-Ravenscourt School. And I know for a fact there is a school even older then SJR, although the name escapes me. Nice try. You cannot justify the bias of saying a school is the best, and this is simply not wiki behaviour. Drop me a line on my talk page. TDS (talk • contribs) 02:29, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Re-doing the page
After looking at UCC's page and that of other top schools such as Eton College and Harrow School, I suggest we re-do this page in format. We should have an opening paragraph, with a picture on the right as there is now, followed by a table of contents with History, Noted alumni, Customs, etc...I would be able to provide a lot of information as well, and I am going to get a copy of the school's crest from the I.T. department to make a section on as well. What do you think?

Travisritch 18:49, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Travisritch, it may be morth worthwhile to do it in the WikiProject_Education_in_Canada project standard. TDS (talk • contribs) 02:27, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Marketing Tone
Some of the content of this piece has a boosterish, marketing-type tone. I am a graduate of the school and am attempting to make the piece more frank and objective. Above all, the entry should be complete, accurate and fair.

I have entered much of the historical information that some boosters would see as negative, but I have also repeatedly removed the childish vandalism that we have seen here in recent days. There are many remarkably positive things about this school - I think these are more than addressed already - but I am trying to balance out the entry with critical viewpoints.

There is a lot of superlative, sales-oriented language in here that I believe detracts from the objectivity of the article.

To the current student - I understand and respect your desire to defend the school from unfair detractors, but this is not a sales or recruitment brochure. Also, to compare UCC with Eton or Harrow is somewhat plausible but a definite stretch.

December 15 - 17:45 - GMT-8


 * I think that Travisrich's point with the comparison was to show how the formatting of the UCC page is different than that of the other pages of top schools. Also, I agree with your point of how that there is a lot of the sales-oriented language as you put it, however those paragraphs have been there, practically unchanged, for quite a long time. So I agree with what Travisrich proposes above, since it appears to be a major overhaul of the article and to also synchronize the formatting with that of other top schools. And to your idea about balancing the viewpoints, one thing that could be done is to move the paragraph about the lawsuits up to the main part of the article, currently it is easily missed by the reader because of the long alumni list. --Colonel Cow 18:40, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * And only about 35 minutes after that comment Darkcore starts redoing the page. Nice job so far Darkcore --Colonel Cow 23:30, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * I think what has been done so far by Darkcore is fairly good work, however I question the need to eliminate the section on the capital building campaign. Granted some of the tone was consistent with the "marketing tone" of the article; however keeping the major jist that UCC is in the process of a large capital building projected, in paticular as it is the largest capital building programme in the school's history - if not the history of Canadian private/independant school history. Thoughts to consider.


 * That's hardly significant. If every school article on here listed how many gyms it had, people would want to kill themselves out of boredom. Besides, the only people that would care about any "capital building program" or whatever are current students/staff and alumni. Darkcore 02:54, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Big kudos to Darkcore for vigilance against the (pathetic, homophobic) vandalism and (unctuous) UCC promotion that plague this entry. --Chen24 20:56, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * UCC is not a "private school," it is an "independent school." The major difference in Canada is that a "private school" is defined as a school which operates in the attempt to make a profit for the owners of the school (for example: Mentor College in Mississauga, or many of the Montessori schools in Canada) or in the very least is owned by a single person or a group of persons.


 * Conversely, an "independent school" operates not to make a profit for any single person or groups of person - they are not owned by anyone but are rather public trusts operated by a Board of Governors/Directors on behalf of a wider community.


 * To quote from the UCC website: "The College is an independent, non-denominational school for boys, incorporated under an Act of the Legislature of the Province of Ontario, and is administered by a seventeen-member Board of Governors as a public trust." To label it as a "private school" might be viewed as correct by most - as not many people in Canada or elsewhere know the difference - however from a factual basis it is not truthful nor accurate. -Happy Holidays, Jim.

Comments
Well, I see someone has taken it upon themselves to begin editing the article. Perhaps we could add some information about the school's traditions. I agree that the page has (had) a bit of a marketing tone to it, but it's not like your usual marketing then is it? It's all true (save for some hyperbole.) I think the page is missing a lot of it's bulk now though, and some are not going to bother to click on the link to the list of alumni. To leave out graduates such as Ted Rogers and Vincent Massey from the main page would be to ignore a significant part of the school's reputation and history, just because it sounds impressive. Much more could also be added to the history, such as the information about the first lacrosse game played at UCC. The school is also known as a school for sports scouts as well (a graduate of the school is a member of the Canadian National Rowing Team, for example.) We could say a few things about some of the school's traditions, such as "stewards," 16 senior students who operate different parts of student life, ten of these being the head of their house. We could mention that these stewards wear tuxedo-style creme-coloured jackets in formal dress, just as Harrow talks about the different ties or waist-coats that its different posts wear. We could then also list the school's ten houses. We could put up the school's crest (I'll get a good quality copy from I.T.,) and talk about the school's motto: "Palmam ferat qui meruit," which loosely translated from Latin means "those who deserve/earn shall receive." I don't know if anyone else has any ideas, but similar information is provided about other top schools. I just like the graduate want the page to contain a fair viewpoint but feel that important things about the school are being left out. Also, lastly, it's not really that much of a stretch to stack UCC up with Exeter, Harrow, Eton etc., it certainly belongs in that ring in terms of it's historical importance, facilities, results, notable graduates and the impact they have had on the world, not to mention the shared archetype of students studying at the school and the background they tend to have. It would be like saying that Cornell is not Ivy League (even though it is) just because it's not quite Harvard.63.130.194.234 06:32, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * The reason I separated out the alumni list was because it was getting too long and unwieldy. This is standard Wikipedia convention. Let's all be mindful of the fact that this is an encyclopedia; it is not free PR for UCC's purposes.


 * If you want to add something about UCC's history, go ahead. But, boosterish, marketing-style text will be removed. Darkcore 09:44, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Darkcore, the reason I am only giving suggestions and not making edits is because I am not versed in Wikipedia markup, nor do I intend to spend my time learning it. I have a life to run, as opposed to being a encyclopedic vigilante. To use the fact that anyone can edit an article as a reason for taking it upon yourself to decide what content will be displayed in a specific context amounts to no less a bias than was previously present in the article. I thought we wanted to constructively re-order and trim the article, but you have just butchered it. You should keep in mind that an institutions' eminence depends on the amount of attention paid to it. Anyone who reads the current article that is not familiar with the school would now probably not consider the school very impressive, and excuse me for having that opinion as a current student enjoying all of those gyms that would make people "kill themselves out of boredom." *Sigh*. I have looked at other edits you have made, however, and it appears there is no stopping you. So, trim, chop, cut, hack and flatten away, buddy. I give up.Travisritch 19:03, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * There's a difference between Wiki markup and standard convention, but whatever... it's just common sense.


 * As for UCC's "eminence" - this encyclopedia is not here to boost your school's prestige. If you think that by exaggerating facts and adding UCC rhetoric is going to endear your school to the rest of the world, then you are sadly mistaken. This is an encyclopedia. Deal with it. If you want to make your own little pretty website that talks about how wonderful UCC's gyms are, then have at it - no one is stopping you. But many, many people felt that this article lacked balance and much of the hyperbole and PR needed to be removed. Darkcore 21:19, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

My goal was to make it like Eton's page. Plain and simple. It still isn't there, although the format is better. I don't know where this other guy came from to make that comment, and I don't know who the mystery people are that think the article was unbalanced, but basically, I am not pleased with the edits that have been made here. I also don't know why you pay so much attention to UCC's page, you appear to have no connection to the school. I used this page to sell the school's reputation to those interested to know where I was studying. I can no longer do that, and thus I am unhappy. I accept the fact that I can't do anything about it, but, life moves on and I'm not here to start an argument. Do as you please. I'll just enjoy actually having the privilege of attending the school while you write articles about it.Travisritch 06:39, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * I really dislike this bickering - so maybe we can cut it out and everyone can work in some sort of unison to making this encyclopedia entry better. I tend to agree with Darkcore that there existed some PR and hyperbole - so I'm happy that, that has been removed. However, I also think that the article has been somewhat torn apart. A discussion about the College's current facilities is warranted, as well as an expanded section of the history of UCC, and while we're at it: If other school's articles can mention capital building projects, than UCC certainly can as well...


 * Also for the record, Darkcore, (and honestly this is begining to really irk me), UCC is an independent school - NOT a private school. Please stop redoing my edits in regards to that topic, when there is a plethora of information proving that I am correct and you are not. If we want this to be an accurate article, then you also need to understand that your edits are often incorrect.


 * Anonymous person - I only changed that independent school thing once. I don't know what you're talking about, so calm down.


 * Travisritch and others: Just because I have no connection to school does not mean that I don't know something about the topic. As I have said time and time again, this is an encyclopedia. It is not here to "sell the school's reputation." I will continue to edit in the name of POV, and if you have a problem with it, too bad. Darkcore 22:41, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * A couple more things: the layout is consistent with other schools, with a history section, etc., etc.; the previous layout had no flow whatsoever, and was extremely confusing. Also, Travisritch, you can enjoy the privilege of attending high school while I can be a graduate of a top American prep school and an Ivy League university, making a six-figure salary. Darkcore 22:48, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I have complemented you on the layout of the page, I think it's great and I think it's great that you know all of this markup. I certainly don't. Of course, you wouldn't be interested in historical/research/informational services and topics of interest such as top schools and this encyclopedia if you weren't of a certain cultural status anyway. I just merely have a very very different bias because I am currently attending the school and am very proud to do so. So, perhaps we can find the right balance here.Travisritch 00:02, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Recent comments = tacky snobbery. Which contributor attends the most "eminent" high school? Who has the highest salary? Who cares? Wikipedia deserves a real discussion, not a display of feathers, over a page as apparently controversial as this one. Otherwise, Darkcore is doing a pretty good job overall. --Chen24 17:10, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Also, the marketing tone is creeping back in. UCC, like its host city, is a notable but not first-tier entity (or barely first-tier if one desperately pushed the point). Despite this, it has more length and detail than Eton, some of which is devoted to the obviously promotional "capital building campaign." This campaign gets as much ink as the sex scandals that plague the school. But which issue gets more ink in Toronto newspapers? UCC fans, have you never heard of countersignaling and understatement? The laundry lists of gyms and swimming pools are thinly-veiled advertisements. If UCC truly floats godlike over the Canadian educational sector, thou dost protest too much. --Chen24 17:26, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Look, *I* don't even care about where I went to school. But I don't appreciate being essentially told that my contributions are somehow not valid because I have no connection with UCC. Current students and alumni of the school are not the only people that are able to contribute to this article. Personally, I find that a lot of the UCC people that have been contributing reek of tacky snobbery more than I ever could. At least I can see my high school in a critical light.


 * Secondly, this is *hardly* a controversial article. I don't see any controversy here at all. It is just a situation of students and alumni wanting to put their school's best foot forward, and other people (such as myself) wanting to give Wikipedia articles a necessary balance and NPOV. I see a situation where UCC-connected people are desperately trying to add positive material, while other people are trying to give a better, more general picture of the place. Clearly, UCC people are not willing to respect the fact that (a) this is an encyclopedia and not a UCC marketing device, and (b) people who are not or have never been affiliated with UCC can still contribute to this article. Darkcore 18:33, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

If you look at the Eton page, and check its discussion, there are only 1 or 2 things said there. I would consider this article to be controversial in the sense that there has been much more bickering stretching back for months about some of the things said in the article. Outside of Canada, the school may not have the same fame as the British public schools, but it is just as much a part of Toronto and by extension Canada, as those schools are to their countries. Eton produce Prime Ministers, and UCC produces Lieutenant Governors. Hardly something worth arguing about. Heck, Bill Graham's nephew is in my English class, as well as Lieutenant Governor of Ontario James Bartleman's youngest son, Alain. This is a top-tier place, if not a top-tier educational institution. Anyway - I think this debate is a bit stagnant to be honest with all of you, and I think it has gotten too personal, so, if anyone responds along these grounds, I won't be answering you back.


 * This whole discussion is getting old and is not going anywhere. I'm growing tired of people's whining and complaining. I'm not going to dignify your "UCC is important too!" comments with a response, because it's old, boring, and stupid. Darkcore 18:44, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I, for one, don't like the "laundry list" of facilities and I think it needs to be removed. Sounds like something right out of a promotional video. I think one or two phrases (after talking about the fees and the fact that they are the highest of any school in Canada,) about how they fund state-of-the-art facilities, such as the Learning centres, etc, would be ok. THEN move into the information about the archives and the endowment, etc. It won't feel like such a laundry list if it is logically re-ordered.


 * So now you don't like the "laundry list" when before, you were fighting for this laundry list to be in the article? Now you are complaining just for the sake of complaining. Darkcore 18:44, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I think it has no place in the article given how the tone has changed, although I still think a mention of the College's current facilities is warranted. But I'm not going to bother editing it because you will change it, so from now on I'm just going to give my input.

Possible Copyright Stuff...plus a debunk!
http://www.ucc.on.ca/A01000_moreaboutus.html

Take a look: a lot of the text in our Wikipedia article is taken verbatim from the UCC website. I'm new, and not sure what the process with this is. I was extremely impressed with this high-school level writing (despite the fact that I pride my skills at 15), and pleasantly surprised to find that it has been directly plagiarised. This is obviously the most important part of my comment, hence creation of a new comment.

The Canadian Educational Standards Institute stated in June 2003 that "Appleby College has set a benchmark for excellence among the independent schools." Appleby has also published that the CESI chair said "Appleby is the best private school in Canada"-- this is printed on publicly available (even publicly solicited) documentation, which would prove it's veracity.

I'd like you all to take note on the fact that while providing reasons for why UCC is ostensibly the best prep school in Canada, the writers in this discussion cited a) money, b) elitism, c) history, d) sports...I thought a school was meant to be about development, education, etc. Should the schools not be judged by the same principles upon which they were founded? I'm not going to expan on my argument because it's simple enough to understand.

In arguing that the history and prestige of alumni of UCC is not far from that of Eton, we read "Eton produces Prime Ministers, UCC produces lieutenant governors [sic]" Eton has produced 19 Prime Ministers compared to 1 lieutenant-governor from UCC. I would encourage you to look at the articles List of famous Old Etonians born before the 18th century, List of famous Old Etonians born in the 18th century, List of famous Old Etonians born in the 19th century, and List of famous Old Etonians born in the 20th century before you continue with your alumni rationel; however, they're extremely lengthy and stock-full of ornate titles, appointments and positions, so you might get bored.

Can you give any documentation on this supposed $90,000,000 capital campaign?

While I do agree that UCC is an outstanding school with great history in Canada, I have two main points to prove:
 * The argument that UCC ranks among the very top in the world is simply silly
 * This is no place for shameless promotion and inflation of truth. We are an encylopedia.

Response to: Possible Copyright Stuff...plus a debunk!
Okay, so basically we've gone from an overly pro-UCC bias to a pro-Appleby and anti-UCC one. The above attempt at mentioning a copy right infraction was possibly accurate and I will personally see that if such a copy right infraction has occurred that it is changed as soon as possible.

However in regards to the wild claim by the user that UCC has witnessed "falling standards" is absurd. UCC maintains itself as easily the independent school with the highest academic standards. These standards originate from the usage of the IB programme at the College. The IB - universally accepted - as the most challenging and prestigious of high school programmes in the world, continues to add a much higher standard to the academics of Upper Canada. Moreover, UCC annually ranks as one of the top IB schools - and some would argue, the top school - in the world. This ranking, and the fallout from its prestige, allows UCC to claim extremely high academic standards. Whereas, schools like Appleby, follow academic programmes which are usually locally-run and administered; and therefore receive no exterior mark supervision. Therefore, there allows the ability for mark inflation and blatant favouritism towards certain students. Programmes like the IB which call for a fully externally marked papers, exams and assignments eliminate such a bias.

Now, the issue of Appleby College, a wonderful school and without a doubt one of the leading schools in Canada. However, there exists no evidence which gives any hint that Appleby, has according to the edits of the main article by the above user, “surpassed” UCC. Let’s deal with these quotes:

1)	"Appleby College has set a benchmark for excellence among the independent schools." – Let’s point out here the importance of semantics. The quote says “a benchmark” not “the benchmark.” It is extremely vital to point that difference out. Moreover, if you read the CESI reports they sing praises about every single school they report on. If we were to trust the CESI reports, we’d believe that ever private school in Canada is the epicenter of enlightenment.

2)	“Appleby is the best private school in Canada.” A fairly wild and nonsensical assertion with no factual base, as is evident by the lack of a source. Well actually, the author cites “Appleby” says as the source (similar, to “Simon says.”). How ironic that a school should in their own publications, as the author is alluding to, that they are “best.” This is like McDonald’s publishing an ad saying that “Our burgers reign supreme.” They don’t. Appleby is a fine school, however if they are the only ones saying they are the best, then I would contend the validity of that source. UCC on the other hand, has a plethora of sources which claim that the College is the most exclusive, prestigious and “best” school in the country.

Now moving on to the second argument presented, the issue of UCC being the best prep. school in the country. The user claims that the entire discussion page of this article has summed up UCC in the following 4 categories: i) money; ii) elitism; iii) history; and iv) sports. (Naturally, he/she forget the significant number of sources, cited above, which clearly state that UCC is the premier school.)

i)	Money: Prep. Schools by definition tend to be ranked in regards to how large their endowment is. The trustworthiness of this statement, I’ll admit, might be wrong in theory. However, in practice, it is very much how people view prep. schools and how they are stacked up against each other. Here UCC wins versus Appleby. ii)	Elitism: I think it’s fair to say UCC is full of elitist people, because it simply is very synonymous with the elitist members of society. It’s fair to say that when looking at a prep school they do weigh the factor of how elite they are – UCC wins this battle too. iii)	History: To be the best prep. school in the country means you need to have an illustrious history. UCC has such a history; most other schools in Canada do not. UCC is a school which has made unbelievable contributions to Canada and the world. It is that history which shows a significant portion of the importance and role of UCC. iv)	Sports: I agree it doesn’t play a huge role. However, College teams have always performed, on average, to be the best amongst Canadian independent schools. Moreover, when the College competes internationally, they also do extremely well. If you’re an athlete, looking at the College’s overall athletic record (ie. All teams) it is fair to say that UCC is a powerhouse when compared to any other school – with the possible exception of SMCS.

The user/author asks: “Should the schools not be judged by the same principles upon which they were founded?” The answer to that is an incredible and enthusiastic “yes!” UCC’s founding in 1829 was to be the premier educational institution in the colonies – and to this day, 175 years later, it remains.

UCC Old Boys: This probably had the least sense of any attempted argument by the user. Old Boys of UCC have contributed more to Canada and to the world than graduates of any other single school in Canada and most in the world. Eton College is a tremendous exception in the world – very few institutions and organisations are even within the same planetary orbit as that school. Though: Out of the alumni links to UCC the following is true (though the numbers are most likely higher, but Wikipedia is restricted in access to full information):

-	The school has produced at least 4 Lt. Governors of Ontario -	1 Lt. Governor of Manitoba -	1 Governor General of Canada -	5 of the world’s great authors -	6 of Canada’s billionaires -	3 Chief Justices of the Courts in the last 2 decades -	3 current federal cabinet ministers -	4 Presidents or ex-Presidents of the University of Toronto -	Numerous business and academic positions.

UCC graduates have made a spectacular and lasting impact on Canada and the world. For being 175 years old the school’s contributions have been extradionaire and leave the other Canadian schools in the metaphorical dust. The list here on Wikipedia does not give a fair sense of the true power and success of Old Boys from UCC.

The last two points won’t even being discussed…because well, they are well established facts that certain people have been trying to fix. However, what you did, in paticular with your rant about the supremacy of Appleby, showed none of the so-called “inflation of truth” that you were apparently such a defender of. All you did was turn the tables from "pro-UCC" to "pro-Appleby."

To conclude: “The health of UCC is very important for the health of the country." – Michael Wilson, Minister of Finance

A fierce debate between two anon posters - that's not going to help us much.

It appears to me that UCC has a difficult time arguing its significance without a real understanding of the College's Old Boys and the things they have done. However, if it wouldn't be in violation of anything, there are huge wall-mounted parchment-looking inscriptions all over the school noting down notable graduates of the school and honours students have won - every Rhodes Scholar, every Victoria Cross, etc. I would be more than happy to make notes of people on these and pass them along for inclusion in the article. If you look at those Eton lists, the criteria for being listed is quite low, even military commandants are included on the list - one could hardly call those of such rank famous. As UCC keeps these records as well, who's to say I/we can't?  The school is open to visitors as a historical building in Toronto, so it's not to say that the information is meant to be hidden or copywritten. Would this be of help? Travisritch 18:42, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Goodness! I never realized that UCC and Appleby were rivals like that...I don't know why, but I always thought that it would be between UCC and another "Little Big Four" school (TCS, SAC, Ridley).


 * Writerchick shudders* and hopes that there won't be a BSS/Havergal catfight in the near future 01:56, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Appleby would be lucky if they could even consider themselves UCC's rivals.


 * January 20th, AC 3 - 2 UCC on your home ice.  You were just torched.

Student-to-teacher ratio
"The current student-to-teacher ratio is 1:8."

Are there really 8 teachers for every one student? ;) Somebody who knows the real ratio should fix this. -Frazzydee|&#9997; 23:12, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This is the offical College published number... (It's clearly a lie, MBB)

I am a student and Ambassador (tour guide) at UCC and I know that the student-to-teacher ratio is 18:1. I've edited it. Travisritch 23:41, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

UCC Jargon
I recommend removing this section, its far too incomplete (fixing this would make it too exhaustive). It takes away from the professional look of the page, and its general relevance, by giving little that is of any help to anyone looking up UCC. As well, since when is Applby considered a rival?

Cheers, MB

Appleby is not a rival - it was the talk of a mad man! Nevertheless, the jargon should be gone!

I agree, it is just useless.

There has recently been a profileration of the fact that UCC has a wikipedia article. Students have taken to editing it at their leisure, thus resulting in the poor-quality UCC jargon and "houses" sections. I believe they should both be removed or thoroughly changed in format and content. Travisritch 23:41, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I am removing the Jargon bit; I will copy and paste it in here. It is a poor quality addition to the main page, adding nothing of real value and is far too limited.

UCC students and staff alike often sport a language of their own as is common in many schools. For example:

Steward - A prefect

Red rocket - A message sent by a teacher to a boy's housemaster or advisor notifying incomplete work or failure to complete other academic responsibility (named after the red paper on which these messages were written).

Gating - A detention on Saturday

Year - A grade

House Advisor - Academic counsellor responsible for a few students within a house

Mentor - A senior student who takes care of a new boy for the first few weeks of the term

Prep - The junior school

Remove - The top grade at the Prep

First Dress - The most formal dress, used for special occasions or trips

School Dress - The regular dress, consisting of a dress shirt, house (or school) tie, slacks, and polished dress shoes

Spring Dress - The dress during the summer, consisting of a UCC golf shirt, khakis, and topsliders

Slacker Six-pack - The "easiest" set of courses in the I.B. programme; they include Standard Level Mathematical Studies (the lowest maths course), SL Envrironmental Systems (considered to be the easiest science), SL French, Higher Level English, HL Geography and HL Theatre

Asian six-pack - Essentially, the opposite of the "Slacker Six-pack", the hardest courses in the I.B. programme. The courses include Higher Level Mathematics, Higher Level Physics and Higher Level Chemistry, and a set of standard level courses, usually SL English, SL French and SL Economics. It is named for the fact that it is a science-driven programme.

Houses Issue
I believe, as many also do, (those both working for the site and others in general) that the House's articles are problems, despite the fact they are valuable additions to the UCC site. They should be remade in a more informative, structured and grammatically sound fashion - akin to the Jackson's House article. Until then, I have redirected the latest 3 houses back to the UCC page until they are improved. (The other three houses were redirected by Carruthers a few months back I believe.)

WikiProject Standards
As I have never edited this page, I don't want to barge in here and begin a full scale remodelling of this page. However, I am wondering if there is any support for using the standards set in Canadian Education WikiProject. For examples of this template applied to private schools see Collingwood School and SJR.

Cheers,

TDS (talk • contribs) 02:17, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Group of Seven paintings
Do we actually have evidence that all of the Group of Seven paintings the school had in its possession have been sold? The only reference to these I can find is a Globe and Mail article which states: "The school has also ordered an appraisal of many of its assets, which include Group of Seven paintings, Canada's first Victoria Cross and Norval, a vast plot of land near Georgetown. Despite this, school officials insist that the school is not in danger of being forced to sell off assets to cover its legal costs." 1 Nowhere can I find a categorical statement that UCC has disposed of any of the paintings, let alone all of them. --gbambino 17:11, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I found an article which says the school auctioned off "at least one" of the Group of Seven paintings 2. Still nothing about all of them. --gbambino 17:22, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

70.26.184.193, whether you go to the school or not is irrelevant (and the fact that you think it somehow makes you an expert on the topic of the Gof7 paintings is more than a little arrogant). Currently there is no debate around the fact that the school owned Gof7 paintings, and it is a known fact that "at least one" of the paintings was auctioned. There exists no concrete proof that every one of the paintings has been sold, despite your having been in Grant House (and at least some of the paintings were in the Principal's office, last time I saw them). So, until someone can provide unequivocal evidence that UCC no longer owns a single Gof7 painting, then there's no dispute to the information as it exists in the article. --gbambino 19:35, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

New userbox
I've created a userbox for UCC students/faculty/staff/Old Boys, available here: Template:User Upper Canada College. Cheers, --Madchester 07:26, 29 January 2006 (UTC)