Talk:Upper Peninsula English

Untitled
This article seems somewhat inconsistent with American English. -- Cyrius|&#9998; 20:54, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Most likely because this article specifically discusses only Yooper, which is a very distinct subset of the article in question. Why it was moved to this name is beyond me.  It should be at Yooper where it was originally.  Tomer TALK  09:55, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * Ah. Look at that. I've moved it to Yooper dialect, changed the opening sentence there, and turned the North Central American English into a stub clarifying that Yooper is a subdialect thereof. Tomer TALK  10:06, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

Unique Words
I've always been a bit leery of the list of unique words and phrases here. Some are legit, but mostly they seem to be a result of either changing 'th' or 't' to 'd' (Hart, Teer, Kart, Nort, Dem) or "v" to "f" (Taffern). This makes them differently-pronounced english words, possibly influenced by German or Scandanavian accents, but not German loan words or otherwise unique terms. The same pronunciations are used in many rural areas of the Midwest. In addition, I can vouch that some of these are used in the rest of Michigan (Kyot, Chicago) if not much of the midwest. I'd like to see some sources indicating a history of these words, or I'll be reorganizing this section to reflect that they are simply pronounciation differences. &mdash;dcclark (talk) 16:21, 3 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I just went ahead and tore out a bunch of things which are wrong or not verifiable. I was pretty hard on some parts of it, so if anyone has a problem with my edits, please post here and we can haggle. :) There's a lot more to be done before this article is really up to snuff, though. &mdash;dcclark (talk) 03:13, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Since when is this definition of "pop" unique to The U.P.? It is ubiquitous in Canada as well as parts of other northern states such as North Dakota and Minnesota.
 * &#9773; Zippanova  07:45, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Not totally true to my experiences as a Yooper
The current article is not quite true to my experiences as a Yooper from Houghton. This article melds the UP and Wisconsin into one unit, but the differences between the dialects of a L'anse native and a Milwaukee or even Green Bay native are distinct. The emphasis on the German influence on the dialect may be more true of Wisconsin than the UP, while the lumping of Finnish in with the other Scandinavian languages minimizes the influence of Finnish too much. Finnish affects sentence structure even to this day in the Copper Country area, with examples such as the removal of "to the" in constructions like "going doctors" or "going camp."

This article needs significant revision to be true of the Yooper dialect, which is distinct from the general Midwestern, including Wisconsin, dialects.


 * What it really needs is to have its sources cited and to be swept clean of original research. --Angr/undefined 10:25, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I am doing some research right now to back some things up, as well as to take away the foundation for so much German infuence. I have come up with a few academic articles but the amount of research is admittedly thin. Either way, it seems pretty clear that this page needs help re: sources, citations, and a reappraisal of the role of German influence. I'll see what I can come up with. On a side note, I have lived my whole life in the UP and I think we need more yoopers to get directly involved in this page. As it is, I think this is much more of a Northwoods Wisconsin page and that is a big leap from the UP. Tm83 17:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Where are the Finns?
In "Upper Peninsula" article there is impressed how much Finns have contributed to Yooper culture... so isn't it the same in the dialect? This page contains no signs about Finnish influence.


 * This article seems to contain a lot of original research (which it shouldn't), and as I've commented above, inaccuracies or misrepresentations. On the other hand, the Finnish influence is mostly at the west end of the UP, so there's an argument to be made that it's not an integral part of the dialect. Either way, it does need to be added. &mdash;dcclark (talk) 21:38, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

English Dialects List
Why does the List of English Dilaects on the Yooper Page not include Yooper? Is there a Way of changing the Contents of the List [I'm assuming that changing the List would change it on every Page it appears...]?

WAY overvalues German influences.....Where is the Italian influence?
German may be important in Northern Wisconsin, but never in my entire life (all spent in the UP, with the exception of college) have I experienced a German immigrant community. Not in any town, be it Ironwood, Bergland, Iron River, Ishpeming, or Eben. Notice that 3 of these 5 towns have strong Italian communities, while not a one of them has a strong German presence. Face it, there are few strong German communities in the UP, at least not in the central and western UP.

Meanwhile, the Italian influence on the Yooper dialect is not mentioned. I grew up with the understanding the I spoke "North Iron Mountain" Italian "brogue." Don't ask me, that's what I was told. I believe there are two main facets of "Yooper." The Finnish "sing-songy" influence and the Italian influence of tying the last syllable of words to the first syllable of the next word are the two streams of Yooper, as I have known them. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.241.231.182 (talk &bull; contribs).


 * If you know about the Italian influence on the Yooper dialect, please feel free to add it to the article -- always, of course, citing sources! (The article needs a lot more sources in general.) I'm not happy with the article as it is either, but don't know enough to seriously overhaul it. Also, you may want to sign your comment with four tildes. -- dcclark (talk) 05:48, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. I'm hoping to fix this article soon, along with any number of other things on my to do list :-p  Tom e rtalk  16:50, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

2 Things
I -- This page seems more like a Northwoods Wisconsin Page than a Yooper Page. Lots More German influence there, but still similar... Mabye it should be changed to "English of the Northwoods" Or something... Or not... Whatever

II -- Mabye can we a few Quotes or Examples be put up, like that Michigan Study one in the Link, or Something from "Escanaba in Da Moonlite," so People can see how it sounds. I'd do it, but I'm not really sure about copyright Laws...63.247.34.81 05:13, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay, this is the Link I was talkin about, I think It pretty Much Sums Yooper up...

"NOTIS YOU

WHOS TO GIVE IT YOU PROMISS FOR HUNT IT MY LAN? BETTER YOU LOOK OUT ELSE

I SOOT IT YOU WIIT DA 2 PIPE SOT GUN.

AND DATS TO BE NO PULLSIT."

Can It be put up if it's Cited? 63.247.34.81 05:13, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Mountain and Houghton

 * ''The dropping of some t's, for example, mountain would be pronounced moun-in, and Houghton would be pronounced Hough-in

Is this meant to indicate a glottal stop where the hyphen is? If so, this is also VERY common in Canadian English....Skookum1 08:04, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah this article is way wrong - I'm from a more rural area of lower Michigan. The accent of a resident of say, the Detroit suburbs is completely different from a Yooper accent - and the term pop is not unique to the Midwest, much less to the Yooper-speak. The dropping of t's was also common in more western areas of lower Michigan. I'm knit:n some mit:ens fer my kit:n -- ekm02001 8 July 2006

Yoopers don't always talk like that anymore we tend to still hold our accent but we also mainly. use yooper dialect to make fun of and mauk what other people think of us.

German definite articles
What is meant by the item "German definite articles (The = Da, Dem, Die)"? The definite articles in German are der, das, die, and dem is the dative form of das. I'm not familiar with Yooper, so someone needs to clarify or correct this. &mdash;a reader 06:24, 11 March 2007 (UTC) $$Insert formula here$$

new book: American Voices
There is a chapter in it about the Yooper dialect. I'm probably going to upload much of the text of it here. Seems to have a lot of excellent info. I'll also add heavily to the article. I don't know about how to cite properly so I'll just somehow reference the book title, author, and pages of where I'm getting info and/or direct quotes from. It does seem to suggest what I've been thinking, that some of you seem to have been misled on, that in reality the western UP, mostly the Keweenaw, has far more dialect than the rest of the UP, which is relatively more standard English. Peoplesunionpro (talk) 01:25, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

From "American Voices: How Dialects Differ From Coast to Coast", softcover, 2006, Chapter 21 titled "Saying Ya to the Yoopers (Michigan's Upper Peninsula)", starting on page 130, by Beth Simon

(beginning and ending quotations are mine)

p131: " Upper Peninsula speech, especially that of the Western UP, is an excellent example of a "focused" dialect - perceived as a distinct entity by its speakers and by those who come into contact with it. The English spoken on the western side of Michigan's UP, and especially on the Keweenaw Peninsula, is a dialect replete with evidence of multifaceted social interactions, economic change, and cultural complexity.  "

p131: " The population of the "Copper Country" (as it is still called today) rose from approximately 25,000 in 1880 to over 90,000 in 1910 when more than two-thirds of residents were born either outside the US or to foreign-born or non-citizen parents. The English spoken in the Keweenaw was English English, Cornish English, Irish English, and the English of the Scottish Lowlands. "It was English," said one descendant of Cornish immigrants, "but not the King's English. Not the Queen's English." "

p131: "  After the Civil War, mine-owners recruited workers from Europe, because, as the General Manager of the Keweenaw's largest mining conglomerate wrote, they preferred men who had "just arrived in this country... We would rather make American citizens of those people in our own way than have anyone else do it." Copper Country residents understood the cultural complexities of the UP. "My father used to say, forty nationalities, a church for every one and every church full... In school there were Polish, Italian, Irish, Finnish, English, Cornish," recalls the Keweenaw native.   "

Due to growth in jobs out west, and the Great Depression, the local population was "less than 60,000" by 1930.

p131-132: "   Of those who remained, most were Finns, who continued to use Finnish (usually alongside English) at home and in social organizations.  Other residents were native English speakers and other immigrant groups who no longer maintained their first language. Because they were able to maintain their ancestral language, the speech of people of Finnish background has had the stronger influence on the English dialect of the western UP.   "

I'll add more later. Peoplesunionpro (talk) 02:20, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Luckily I just added this article to my watchlist. Great job on finding a source. You can cite sources using the cite book template. Here's a great example of the template in use in the Tamil language featured article. It is best if you stop pasting copyrighted text here if you are willing to write the text into this article. Let me know if you want a deeper explanation or for me to do some examples. Royal broil  03:30, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

that map
is covering words —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.9.129.11 (talk) 04:52, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

this article is pretty fucking untrue
Ummm, I live in Milwaukee and I have no fucking idea what the hell this artice is talking about. You seriously think we say "I am going store"? Maybe in the middle of bumfuck nowhere, but 95% of people will not have that bad of an accent. 174.102.176.183 (talk) 04:51, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah I live in a small town in bumfuck no where and I have never heard anyone talk like that. It pisses me off to think that everyone that reads this that is not from around here is going to think we are some kind of back woods hicks which we are not, like you said its only a small amount of people.

I hope you're joking, as Milwaukee is not in the Upper Peninsula of MICHIGAN. It's nearly 200 miles away in southern Wisconsin, where Inland Northern American English is the predominant dialect. Sumanuil (talk) 05:02, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

"eh" pronounced as "heh"
I've never seen "eh" pronounced as "eh," only as "heh." Can anyone explain why this came to be? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.238.194 (talk) 15:58, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

This article should have some audio
__meco (talk) 09:11, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

How are Finnish words pronounced?
Are they still pronounced like in Finnish? Or is their pronunciation anglicised now?--93.32.72.201 (talk) 17:38, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Name
I'm interested in renaming the "Yooper dialect" page to something ending in "English," as in "Yooper English," "Upper Michigan English," "Upper Peninsula English," etc. Thoughts? This seems to follow WP: NCL, which recommends using the "PLACENAME English" format in cases whether there is not yet consensus on the name of the dialect/variety in the academic literature (in fact, see the Remlinger [2015] quotation below). I'm not sure that "Yooper dialect" is the most common name. Here's what I've found to be the primary name used in each of these articles I found about the variety: "Saying Ya to the Yoopers" is another significant article, though I can't find it anywhere to read up on it.... Wolfdog (talk) 20:54, 1 November 2015 (UTC) [updated: Wolfdog (talk) 03:01, 14 November 2015 (UTC)]
 * "Copper Country English" (though, also, "While there is no specific name for the particular local variety, often both it and its speakers are identified as Yooper" [119])
 * Used here: Remlinger, Kathryn. "Everyone Up Here: Enregisterment And Identity In Michigan's Keweenaw Peninsula." American Speech 84.2 (2009): 118-137. Communication & Mass Media Complete. Web. 25 Oct. 2015.
 * "(Michigan) Upper Peninsula (UP) English"
 * Used here: Rankinen, Wil. "The Michigan Upper Peninsula English Vowel System in Finnish American Communities in Marquette County." American Speech 89.3 (2014): 312-347. Communication & Mass Media Complete. Web. 25 Oct. 2015.
 * "Upper Peninsula dialect" or "Keweenaw dialect" (implied)
 * Used here: Dorson, M. Richard. "Dialect Stories of the Upper Peninsula: A New Form of American Folklore." The Journal of American Folklore Vol. 61, No. 240 (Apr. - Jun., 1948), pp. 113-150.
 * "Upper Peninsula" or "UP" (no specific term for the dialect alone)
 * Used here: Plichta, Bartomiej, and Brad Rakerd. 2002. "Perceptions of /a/-Fronting across Two Michigan Dialects." Paper presented at the 31st annual conference on New Ways of Analyzing Variation (NWAV 31), Stanford, CA, Oct. 10–13.
 * "UP Englishes" and "Yooper" (quotations from other sources within the article additionally give "Yoopanese" and "Yooperese")
 * Used here: Remlinger, Kathryn; Joseph Salmons, Luanna von Schneidemesser. "Revised Perceptions: Changing Dialect Perceptions In Wisconsin And Michigan's Upper Peninsula." American Speech 84.2 (2009): 176-191. Communication & Mass Media Complete. Web. 13 Nov. 2015.
 * Footnote: This source also discusses the coinage of the term "Yooper" itself only in the very late 1970s
 * So there is certainly no consensus on a term by any means. But I think, in alignment with NCL, at least changing it to Yooper English makes sense, due to a lack of any predominant term. Making the move. Wolfdog (talk) 03:01, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
 * On second thought, "Upper Peninsula" is the most common term we see in the various names for the dialect. Therefore... moving the page to "Upper Peninsula English." Wolfdog (talk) 15:59, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
 * As a Yooper - Upper Peninsula English is accurate in 50 states. But - "Yooper English" would be more accurate in Da yoop, eh?. KyleWiering (talk) 12:01, 31 August 2018 (UTC)