Talk:Urban legend/Archive 2

Making connection to Lake Bodom murders
I have added info about the Lake Bodom murders and their assumed connection with for instance the Friday 13th horror movies. I am writing this without any source but my own conjecture. If anyone thinks this is unwarranted speculation I expect the assertion to be removed. __meco 09:36, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism
I checked throught the article and under "Structure" there is some text, probably from a certain "travis" which has no relavence to the article, however, the text does not show up on the edit page, could someone work to try and fix this -Felix Pandora 2:56 PM, (EST), Febuary 14, 2007

"untrue"
The second or third line states: "Urban legends are not necessarily untrue, but they are often false". Can someone please describe the difference between false and untrue? I thought they were the same thing. Unless there is an actual difference between the two word, I think this contradiction should be removed. Gregsinclair 00:34, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The line merely says that most are untrue. It's not a contradiction.
 * A more straightforward way to say it would be, "Most urban legends have proven to be false." Wahkeenah 13:57, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Adding a good example
I believe that some of these examples are not as well known as others. The main addition I would make would be to insert the legend of the Underground Kidney Thieves. It seems to be the most well know legend, in which a person is seduced in a bar, slipped a sleeping pill, and wakes up in a bathtub of ice missing a kidney. It is rediculous, but really should be added. 75.26.164.84 03:28, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

An episode of Law and Order had a similar storyline. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.5.84.175 (talk) 17:16, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Organized Crime Urban Legends

 * Apparently Shotgun Man is a Urban Legend-a check of the Northwestern University website on "Homicide in Chicago" shows shotgun killings in Chicago-but none in Jan-March 1911-and only one killing at Oak and one at Milton Streets between 1900 and 1920 (Reference only).


 * Another example of organized crime Urban Legend is that in the turn of the century New York City there was a "Murder Stable" where Gangsters killed one another. However see [] and [] which debunk this legend.
 * In The Godfather movie a corrupt policeman and a gangster are killed in a restrurant. The nearest in realty to a NYPD Policeman being killed in a restrurant occured in 1927. The facts are these:
 * Two detectives surprized 3 robbers trying to rob a restrurant. Both Detectives and 1 robber was killed; 1 robber was judged insane and the other was executed. See [].
 * See Buster from Chicago-apparently Joseph Valachi version of Buster's life is incorrect-According to research by David Critchley "Buster's" real name was Sebastiano 'Buster from Chicago' Domingo.

Urban Legends growth from Myths!

 * The So called haunted Chase Vault of Barbados-orginating from one account and uncollorabted by other sourses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chase_Vault
 * In November 1897 Several US Newspaper printed a report that a woman had gone to the Paris Exposition with her mother; left the mother in a Hotel room amd found that her mother had vanished-see http://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/09/14/vanishing-lady/. This legend became the basis of the movie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/So_Long_at_the_Fair

Choking Doberman
I found this one hard to believe, but it has been widely dispersed. Not by me, as I find it ludicrous.

A convicted burglar was being treated in a hospital for the loss of two fingers. Meanwhile, the owner of a Doberman pinscher who had just found that returned to his home found that his pet was choking. The dog was induced to cough up the offending material, and the material was found to be two human fingers. The fingers were matched to the burglar being treated for the loss of two fingers, and were later used as evidence to tie him to a burglary, whereof he was later convicted. The fingers had lodged in the dog's throat. Black fingers -- of course suggesting a racist element in the story.

First, it's hard to imagine a dog biting off fingers. Dogs could slice off flesh with their teeth, but I can't imagine them slicing off bone and swallowing a severed digit. Not even tigers do that.

Second, a dog has a swallowing reflex. The fingers would go down the esophagus -- not the trachea. Dogs are ravenous eaters, eating food in large chunks if necessary... and human fingers, if a dog ever swallowed them, would go easily down a dog's esophagus.

Third, if the fingers had gone into the lungs, then it is likely that the dog would have coughed them up quickly -- or died.

Fourth, it's a racist tale. Note the "black fingers".

Fifth, no time or place is mentioned. That's the big one. No town, no hospital, and no court is specified.

In contrast, a story that I once read -- it had an AP heading -- stated that an eighteen-year-old cat badly mauled a burglar in San Diego, California. I forget the date; such behavior is not what I would expect from a house cat, but instead something that I would have to accept as true...but I am satisfied that the story was possible, and that the wire service rarely prints whoppers.

It had a date and a time, and some news organization took responsibility for the story. Unlike the "choking Doberman" story which is inconsistent with known facts about dogs (except that they maul burglars badly), the one involving the cat is possible. It might be unusual behavior for a cat, but not impossible.--Paul from Michigan (talk) 06:13, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Dogs don't maul burglars (or only in the movies): as a doctor for 30 years, I have seen a lot of children and old ladies badly mauled but not a single burglar. Dogs are only useful when barking, and burglars know how to proctect themselves from dogs' attacks. But that's another story.Jsoufron (talk) 09:05, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Rather than listing it here, you can find the story here at Snopes.com. Reywas92 Talk 14:46, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


 * A reminder, folks: this isn't a discussion area about urban legends, it's a discussion area about the article. If we start chatting up various legends, we'll get to be alt.folklore.urban, which isn't the point - DavidWBrooks (talk) 13:32, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Dog bit burgler http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2179887/Burglar-snared-dog-bite-Criminal-attacked-Rottweiler-caught-police-DNA-evidence-teeth.html

http://article.wn.com/view/2014/11/27/Burglar_flees_after_being_bitten_by_householders_dog/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.102.58.221 (talk) 13:26, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Urban Bee
Just wondering why this link was removed? Any particular reason? (www.urbanbee.webs.com)

Also, should there be a category on wikipedia of various urban legends because i looked and there aren't many now, just a few like the NYC sewer gators. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fugabutacus (talk • contribs) 12:05, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * There has been discussion about that point, and nobody thought a List of urban legends was particularly useful, because there are a zillion such collections online already. If you think otherwise, you're welcome to create it and do the work; just make sure to provide references. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 12:17, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Alright, but what about the removed link? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.69.67.223 (talk) 19:51, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

== Links to Alien Abduction and Conspiracy theory? Linking to these articles could detract from their credability. From the layout it almost appears to paint these two as urban legends themselves —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.19.241.83 (talk) 21:36, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Link no longer valid?
The link to the URL (www.urbanlegends.com) that is included in the external links section appears to connect to an advertisement site, perhaps it should be removed? --Allanrob22 (talk) 15:50, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Good idea I remove it. how do you turn this on  15:55, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Origins of urban legends
Excluding the urban legends that are advisory messages, shaggy dog stories, back-formation explanations, and otherwise accounted for, how many urban legends been found to have a basis in truth, however tenuous? Thus some of the explanations of the Pied Piper of Hamlin story - but other such are likely to be lost in the mists of history. Jackiespeel (talk) 18:57, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Quoting my own message above (from almost four years ago - egad):
 * It's true that the Texas legislature once passed a referendum praising the Boston strangler, it's true that newspapers have fallen for "Heywood Jablome", it's true that Abercrombie & Fitch sold a line of T-shirts based on Asian caricatures. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 21:40, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Are there not more, and with some history? Jackiespeel (talk) 21:59, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

list of ULs
Agree with previous editors who did not want to see a potentially endless list of legends. However, this seems a reasonable place to have a list of those ULs which have their own Wikipedia articles. Today there was a deletion of a couple, on the grounds that only the most prominent should be listed -- but then, how to determine? This article seems to me like a good place for someone seeking reference to be able to jump off from. I will not revert, but await response. DavidOaks (talk) 20:32, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * f you want a substantive list, I would once again per above suggest a new article, List of urban legends. This article could link to that directly, being an easy jump off spot. Or, more simply, we could link directly to the Urban legends category and make sure any article that wants to be listed has the appropriate category tag at the bottom. Either/or would be better than trying to put a bunch of them in this article. DreamGuy (talk) 20:45, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes (to either of those suggestions). Since there are a number of exellent UL compilations already online, it seems a largely pointless task to me - but not a harmful one, if kept away from this article. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 23:15, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Bigfoot
To editor DavidOaks: Regarding your reverting of the image of Bigfoot I placed in the lede, why would you say that Bigfoot is not a narrative? and why would you use this as a reason to rv? The story of Bigfoot is a well-known narrative and urban legend in the US. It is, in fact, right up there with the Loch Ness Monster and the Yeti. And why would you want the TOC in a non-standard position per the manual of style? &mdash; Paine ( Ellsworth's   Climax )  14:54, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Nessie and Yeti, like Bigfoot, are cryptids. They are not legends, because a legend is a narrative, a story. Look at the Vanishing Hitchhiker -- it's a story with setting, characters, plot, a beginning, middle and end. All urban legends are dubious, but not everything dubious is an urban legend. Easiest check would be to go through Brunvand's collections, and see if he lists cryptids. I've got them all, and I don't find any. At the same time, it gets hard sometimes to draw the line when some narratives consist largely of implications. I don't think cases which are marginal to the definition should get high prominence, if they are mentioned at all. Maybe a good rule would be to require a WP:RS for the designation of a given item as an urban legend. DavidOaks (talk) 16:22, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, I suppose I'm wrong, then. The "legends" of Bigfoot, Yeti and Nessie shall have to be left off the list of "urban legends".  I've heard them referred to as legends, and I've read many narratives about all three of them.  But you're right.
 * &mdash; Paine ( Ellsworth's   Climax )  09:42, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Merge instead to Urban Legends
There is discussion at Talk:List of common misconceptions about a merge which seems more appropriate to here rather than there. Please discuss there. --Lexein (talk) 21:09, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: see this link for the discussion: Talk:List of common misconceptions/Archive 18. GenQuest  "Talk to Me" 01:42, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Taured
Why does Taured redirect here? Attys (talk) 02:16, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Urban legends do not involve the obviously impossible.
"Most urban legends will also include an element of something that is supernatural or paranormal." I disagree. In fact, not only do most urban legend not involve the supernatural (which is the same as the paranormal, isn't it?) but by definition an urban legend (besides some borderline cases perhaps) is believable by normal modern urban people, and therefore does not involve ghosts and the like. Otherwise what is the distinction between a legend and an urban legend? Are we to call legends about a haunted house in a city an urban legend, and one in the country a rural legend? And if the house is in the suburbs, is it a suburban legend? And if the house is in a green belt, is it a green belt legend? Of course not. So please let's not conflate urban legends with folklore, legends, myths and so on. To do so is the render the term urban legend useless or at least much less useful. We should say urban ghost story or urban folklore if that is what we mean. An 'urban legend' is a very useful term. Let's not damage it. The top definition at Urban Dictionary https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=urban%20legend gives makes no mention of ordinary folklore or the supernatural https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=urban%20legend and gives a thoroughly modern and secular example. No mention of the supernatural here: "An apocryphal story involving incidents of the recent past, often including elements of humor and horror, that spreads quickly and is popularly believed to be true." https://www.thefreedictionary.com/urban+legend. Note that it is 'apocryphal' which means believable (ghost stories are not, because there is no such thing as a ghost). Note that it is 'popularly believed to be true', that means the general population, not just the superstitious or gullible fraction believe it. It has to be plausible, or at least possible. Arctic Gazelle (talk) 17:21, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree that the statement "Most urban legends will also include an element of something that is supernatural or paranormal" is insufficiently supported by sources. That sentence appears to have since been removed from the article, with GenQuest having replaced it with "An urban legend may include elements of the supernatural or paranormal." I find this updated wording much preferable, and I hope this change eased your contentions. I will say, though, I disagree with your assertion that urban legends cannot "involve ghosts and the like."
 * First, Urban Dictionary is considered a generally unreliable source of information. The Free Dictionary source indeed makes no mention of the supernatural, but says nothing about urban legends being exclusively non-supernatural in nature. While I seem to agree with you on one point in the sense that I don't believe that ghosts exist, there are a significant number of people who do believe in ghosts—between 42% and 45% of people in the United States alone. Regardless, there are sources that indicate that urban legends can be supernatural in nature. These include Contemporary Legend: A Reader, edited by Gillian Bennett and Paul Smith, as well as the Encyclopedia of Urban Legends by Jan Harold Brunvand, who helped popularize the concept of urban legends in the 1980s.
 * The closest thing I could find to support the view that urban legends cannot be supernatural in nature was in The Razor Blade in the Apple by Joel Best and Gerald T. Horiuchi, which features the following quote: "Whereas traditional legends often feature supernatural themes, most urban legends 'are grounded in human baseness...' (Fine, 1980:227)." Even this example, however, includes a qualifier: most urban legends, not all. Additionally, after re-reading your words, I notice that you used the same qualifier: "most urban legend not involve the supernatural". The statement that urban legends can include supernatural or paranormal elements, or even that most urban legends do not include such elements, can be supported by sources; the claim that urban legends outright cannot involve such elements, as far as I can tell, does not have such support. — Matthew  - (talk) 05:36, 21 May 2021 (UTC)