Talk:Ursuline Sisters Daughters of Mary Immaculate

Requested move 26 November 2019

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: no consensus for the new title, and thus reverting to the stable title per WP:RMUM. The awkwardness of the construction is secondary to evidence of the common name, and the official name is not relevant, but not much evidence was presented in the discussion. Dekimasu よ! 04:35, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Ursuline Sisters of Mary Immaculate → Ursuline Sisters Daughters of Mary Immaculate – The recent move by User:Laurel Lodged moved the page to an incorrect title. The original Italian name of the congregation is "Istituto Suore Orsoline Figlie di Maria Immacolata", what translates as "Institute of Ursuline Sisters Daughters of Mary Immaculate". The move reasoning is just a personal opinion by someone who did not read the article or did any research on it: can't be both sisters and daughters at the same time. The article multiple times mentions the title as "Ursuline Sisters Daughters of Mary Immaculate". The Banner talk 22:27, 26 November 2019 (UTC) —Relisting. Andrewa (talk) 01:37, 4 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Note: members of WikiProject Catholicism have been notified of this request.  PI Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 14:01, 15 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Relisting comment: Whether or not either or  have done any research, they haven't yet shared any relevant arguments with us! Both titles get some non-Wikipedia-related ghits, more for the current title but that isn't a definitive reason to keep it, but nor is the translation of the Italian name any reason to change it, and nor of course are their personal opinions of what is correct. So I invite them both to read or re-read WP:AT and present valid arguments. Andrewa (talk) 01:48, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Do you say that the original (Italian) name of the organization is not a valid argument??? The Banner  talk 09:57, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Exactly. The article can't be moved unless someone who has read the Article title policy provides at least one argument that relates to existing policy, as you have already been told several times in the course of raising this RM. Thanks for your contribution to Wikipedia, there is a lot to read and we encourage bold contributions. But we also consider existing policy in determining consensus, and the argument that this is a better translation of the original Italian name is discardable. Andrewa (talk) 19:41, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Support. The article's creator, Cats' photos, used the current title at first, then a few days after creating the article in 2017, they renamed to Ursuline Sisters Daughters of Mary Immaculate. Two years later (November 2019) another editor came along and, without discussion, moved the article title to its current version solely because it "can't be both sisters and daughters at the same time", which is of course incorrect. It can be both as shown by the full translation, a fact originally noted by the article's creator and subsequently corrected. The requested title is the correct title and the current title fails both recognizability and precision, as per WP:AT.  PI Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 12:29, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Neutral. I am not so convinced that the English translation of this Order's name is not the current article title. In fact in the sources cited, it seems to be used several times. This may be difficult to ascertain, because the Order has no ministry in English-speaking countries, but it would be helpful. And Laurel Lodged did have a point, "can't be sisters and daughters at the same time" it is a cumbersome construction. Elizium23 (talk) 23:15, 15 December 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Article Title Revisited
Taking a look at the sources, it is clear that the translation from Italian is correct "Ursuline Sisters Daughters of Mary Immaculate", however it is undeniably clunky and somewhat conflicting in English. The argument that they cannot be "sisters" and "daughters" at the same time is not convincing; sisters are by definition daughters of the same mother. The single English language source uses "Ursuline Sisters of Mary Immaculate". In the Italian sources, "Daughters of Mary Immaculate" is used as a subtitle for the order (see logo). In the coat of arms, "Daughters of Mary Immaculate" is treated as a postnomial (Orsoline, FMI), similar to the formal name of the "Franciscans, OFM [Order of Friars Minor]". –Zfish118⋉talk 17:10, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

To resolve the clunkiness in English, I would propose any of the following:
 * Ursuline Sisters - Daughters of Mary Immaculate (dash indicate the subtitle shown in logo)
 * Ursuline Sisters (Daughters of Mary Immaculate) (specifies this is the FMI branch of the Ursuline Sisters)
 * Ursuline Sisters (DMI) (shortened variations)
 * Ursuline Sisters (FMI)
 * Ursuline Sisters of Mary Immaculate (name used in English language source)


 * Why is clunkiness a reason to change a correct name? The Banner  talk 18:06, 5 March 2020 (UTC)