Talk:Utica, New York/Archives/2015

Radio?
This section shouldn't be here at all. It is nonspecific to Utica and more general to Upstate NY. If any should be mentioned, only ones unique or local only to Utica. Right now you have a bunch of capital letters and bullet dots taking up useless space. No one will read it anyway. No offense intended. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.209.130.53 (talk) 03:45, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

I you read this history it is clear that Uticans seem to have a big issue with overemphasizing the mundane and ordinary, it's partly why this Wiki i such a discordant mess compared to other cities even twice Utica's size.

What is wrong with the people there? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.195.222.168 (talk) 00:41, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Pictures
What's up with the photos of Utica that get posted? For the longest time, the page had a picture of the Radisson, and Adirondack Bank beneath a grey, gloomy sky. Let's show a little pride, and put up some pictures that show off how nice the area can actually look. Other city pages have pics of monuments, and different districts. Utica has many monuments, as well as historical buildings, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.79.76.146 (talk) 23:39, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, these are the most accurate pictures I've seen of Utica. Other pictures (like that of the Hotel) are often photochopped to remove surrounding blight and adds a false blue sky with CG-generated clouds. Keep the cloudy pictures... It's more common than you think. However, as you mentioned, please feel free to add the many "landmark society"-protected edifices that are in decrepit condition. Not having those pictures gives an incomplete impression of Utica for the average reader that won't have the time (or a reason) to visit Utica. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.236.176.195 (talk) 20:03, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Joseph Crandall??

In about thirty years of doing research and publishing on Utica's history, I've never encountered this name. I can't say with certainty that there was no such person who may have passed through the area, but it's contradictory to say that the place was "founded" by a person named Crandall and then to say that it was first settled nearly 70 years later--"foundation" means the beginning of meaningful settlement. In fact, before the American Revolution there were no more than a handful of white people living in the entirety of Oneida County, let alone the site of Utica. The village of Utica was not incorporated until the 1790s. This reference to this Crandall as Utica's "founder," for which the person who submitted it does not seem to have offered any documentation, is highly misleading, perhaps even fictional, and has now been repeated by a number of websites that refer to the history of Utica, which shows how problematic this Wiki process really is.

I agree with the person who contends that Herkimer is not a suburb of Utica. That takes quite a stretch of the imagination.

Finally, I don't see how anyone who has been around and who knows anything about Italian-American culture can say that "greens" is a distinctively Utica dish. There may be distinctive ways in which escarole is prepared in Utica--notably in the common practice of adding pickled red cherry peppers, which does not seem to be common, although I cannot say if it's uniquely Utican--but southern Italian immigrants were more fond of leafy green vegetables, specifically sauteed in olive oil and garlic, than the average American, so to say that "greens" is distinctive of Utica is really not accurate. Sauteed escarole, broccoli rabe, and so forth were eaten all over Italian-America.

"It doesn't matter, it was popularized in Utica." Spooky873 (talk) 21:56, 15 April 2008 (UTC) --Or so Uticans desperately claim. Says it all about these people when they need to twist reality to make it look like Utican's are "prominent" people.

Article is messed up now.
Thanks to the valiant edits of one or a few IPs, this article is now full of baloney and personal viewpoints that are difficult to rollback and may require reverting to an older article revision. "Bag Lady Square." Really??? --Buffaboy (talk) 18:08, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Indeed, the anti-Italian rhetoric and some of the other aspects of this article are outright offensive and disgraceful. Needs a thorough purge and cleanup. Echoedmyron (talk) 19:09, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I have already deleted some POV, unreferenced sections. Epic Genius (talk) 15:41, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I've seen the work done. Wish I could help out. --Buffaboy (talk) 20:08, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Dynamic IPs destroying article (Big WP:CRUSH issue)
This article will continue to have attacks such as the one from last week, as it really is only 1 or 2 people pushing their WP:FRINGE views onto the article. Looking at the article history to about 2012 I can see that this person, based upon the language used when editing, is likely one and the same and has committed multiple attacks. Even worse, I personally think this person is engaging in WP:CRUSH!

Every time this happens I believe the IP(s) should be blocked or the article will continue to be trashed. Any ideas, or suggestions? --Buffaboy (talk) 20:16, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Fire department
Anyone other than me think that the fire department section is WP:UNDUE? It is three times the size of the government section and asserts absolutely nothing unique (therefore encyclopedic) about the Utica Fire Department. Minimally, it needs to be smaller and a subsection of government. I can see plenty of arguments for it to go away altogether. The city has stoplights too...are we going to introduce a section listing every one of those? Gtwfan52 (talk) 01:56, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Echoedmyron (talk) 02:14, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Although Wikiproject article guidelines are not mandatory, they are a really good suggestion as to what should and shouldn't be in a particular type of article. It is worth noting that the guideline for US city articles does not even mention a section on police and fire departments.  It is my view that the only time you should have a section on either police or fire departments is if:


 * 1) There is something unusual about them. (see Kalamazoo, Michigan and Scottsdale, Arizona; two cities that have or had public safety departments as opposed to separate police and fire departments.)
 * 2) There has been something (major fire, loss of firefighters in the line of duty, scandal) that has garnered widespread press coverage.


 * Let's leave this discussion open for a while and see what others have to say before doing any revision on the article. Gtwfan52 (talk) 04:16, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Hey guys/ Be informed, Utica is in upstate Ny where they now have more people in public service than in private industry. They live and breathe to talk about their heroic public safety and I have little doubt that this large add was a result of their almost neurotic need to puff chest and talk themselves up. The Utica fire Department actually writes "Above and beyond the call" on their trucks despite the fact that heroes don't call attention to themselves and don't call themselves the heroes they wait for others to do it.

Be warned these people are very self-conscious and will spend 89% of their time defending the delusions they dream up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 32.143.51.99 (talk) 08:54, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

You're doing it wrong
You all are taking the wrong approach IMO. It's not really feasible to block or stop a person who is using dynamic IPs. Just roll back the edits. It only takes, literally, a second, or a couple-three if you don't have any of the rollback tools. This person is obviously trolling so don't engage, just roll back.

I'd be glad to do it, but instead I see that several editors have worked with the mess left by this person, I don't want to roll back now and undo their work. That's unfortunate IMO. Instead, editors wanting to improve the article should just roll back to a clean version and work forward from there. Obviously the troll's "contributions" should be dismissed out of hand. The first person coming across the damage should simply roll it back. If he does it again, roll it back again. Repeat as needed.

Just relax. Even if this person keeps it up and makes 100 (clusters of) edits a year over ten years, and each cluster takes ten seconds to roll back, that's a couple man-hours over ten years split among many editors. It's not worth worrying about.

Just roll it back. Herostratus (talk) 01:08, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I understand. The problem I had was when I attempted to use the "undo" button for all of his edits, there was a message that claim the edit appeared to have been undone when it clearly wasn't, so I went hog wild and went to get this article protected. Not sure why that happened however. --Buffaboy (talk) 03:02, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
 * OK. But then you can always click on whichever clean version you want (in the history), then edit and save. Ten years ago that's how it had to be done anyway. Only takes a few seconds. Herostratus (talk) 19:03, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the tips! Just had to do it today with SUNY Poly. --Buffaboy (talk) 00:04, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Nicknames
Nicknames removed until they can be proven with citations! --Buffaboy (talk) 02:32, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Food and drink in Utica
An editor removed the entire following section on the grounds that it's fluff an puffery:

-
 * Food and drink in Utica 


 * Utica has an array of ethnic cuisines. The Utica area features a number of Italian-American restaurants, some that date back generations. More recent immigrant groups to the city have contributed distinct culinary options including Bosnian, German, Chinese, Lebanese, Burmese, Dominican, Jamaican, Greek, Korean, Spanish, and Thai.


 * Some culinary items associated with Utica:


 * Halfmoons &mdash; Halfmoons are a black and white pastry made with a large (5") dark chocolate cake style cookie iced on one half with white cream frosting and the other half with dark chocolate frosting.
 * Tomato Pie &mdash; Tomato Pie is a rectangular thick-crust bread covered with a sweet Italian tomato sauce, served cold.
 * Chicken Rigatoni &mdash; or Chicken riggies as locals call them, are chicken, rigatoni, peppers, and onions in a spicy, cream and tomato sauce. Riggie Fest occurs every April..
 * Greens &mdash; A generally spicy dish made of escarole with various ingredients (depending on recipe) such as potatoes, sausage, hot peppers..
 * Sausage and Peppers &mdash; Italian sausage with fried onions and peppers on a crusty bread.
 * Mushroom Stew: Crushed tomatoes, ground hot Italian sausage, bell peppers, onions, and mushrooms. Served alone with bread or over pasta.
 * Pusties &mdash; They are "officially" called pasticciotti, a single-serving Italian custard-filled tart. The usual fillings for the rich tart crust are chocolate, vanilla, lemon, and Italian cheesecake.
 * Pierogi &mdash; A Slavic pasta dish commonly filled with fruit, potatoes, sauerkraut, or Polish mushrooms.


 * Utica is the headquarters of the Matt Brewing Company, brewer of Utica Club, Saranac and other beers, which was founded in 1888.

-

I haven't really looked at this and don't know if it's entirely puffery or not, but this is big removal, so I just wanted to note this. Herostratus (talk) 16:29, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
 * It may not be puffery, but it sure is trivial and not good content for a US city article. Gtwfan52 (talk) 07:44, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Because of the influence of refugee and immigrant populations in Utica (for instance, see here), food is deeply cultural to this city. Other cities do have a space for cuisine, see [|New York City's page].

What is uncommon is having a tab for tourism, especially in a city that is not a clear tourist destination. Would it not make more sense to say "Attractions," or "Historical Sites," or "Recreation"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smselvic (talk • contribs) 11:25, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * The section headers are based upon WP:USCITIES, although they can be changed up a bit. It's sort of like a challenge to find information on some of the subjects–it's out there, though. Buffaboy  talk 15:01, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the guidelines. Would it make sense to have a tab for "historical sites" under "history"--since much of Utica's historical value--so often hidden under the surface--can be verified by listing which sites have been deigned "historical sites" and why? For instance, Utica's abolitionist history is not mentioned here, but the site of the "Utica Rescue" has been verified by historians and the building is listed as a historical site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smselvic (talk • contribs) 20:53, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Article reconstruction
Hello my name is Dekema2. I am working to transform articles of some upstate cities into high quality articles that can be closer to earning the designation of WP:GA. I have started with Buffalo, New York and will work on Utica simultaneously. Regardless of what state of life the city is in right now, improving or declining I will put my best foot forward and try to inject life to it while bringing it up to speed with other US cities articles. For more information you can look at WP:USCITIES or contact me on my talk page. Anyone is able to help as well. Thank you and have a nice day! --Dekema2 (talk) 04:34, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
 * It's come a long way in 7 months... Buffaboy  talk 06:47, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Requests
To whom it may concern,

If you're interested in improving the article, these items may go a long way:


 * Additional citations and sources for the tags
 * More pictures of the Utica skyline (Commons has plenty of historical pictures, but not many contemporary ones)
 * More climate information (I can't find any)
 * City seal and flag ✅
 * Expanding where there {[expand article]} tags are ✅

For now that's about it. I'll try to get and SVG image of Oneida County combined with a NYS red dot map together. --Buffaboy (talk) 05:17, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅Map on the way, will have all CDPs and MCDs as well as NYS in a combined SVG file. Buffaboy (talk) 20:50, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Flag
Despite the poor quality of the flag image I added, it's necessary until a high quality vector can be created. I hope editors understand. Buffaboy talk 23:53, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
 * File:New Utica NY Logo.png is being used in this article but the image is using the template. Therefore, a fair use rationale is required on the image page. maclean (talk) 15:59, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
 * , thanks for pointing that out, I'll be sure to add one. Buffaboy  talk 17:39, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

C/E imminent
Attn. page watchers, this article will be undergoing a copy edit shortly, it is currently in the hole at WP:GoCE. 04:35, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

So what's it called?
So the infobox has a fair number of nicknames: which none of these have cites (at least not there in the infobox) and the last actually has a citation needed tag. I went to add a fifth, which at least has a ref, here, at the Children's Museum, how good that is I don't know since it's a children's museum rather than an academic journal or whatever. An editor rolled that back though (it was malformed anyway so maybe he did it for that reason). But rather than including names that don't have refs and excluding those that do, or having like five names, can we find a way to figure out a couple-three that we're confident about? Herostratus (talk) 10:35, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Handshake City,
 * Renaissance City,
 * Capital of the Erie Canal
 * Second Chance City
 * The City That God Forgot

Thanks to you this article is now semi protected. This rhetoric you keep introducing is almost straight from Utica's Topix. Buffaboy (talk) 17:12, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 June 2015
The current Mayor of Utica, Robert M. Palmieri is a Democrat. Not Republican

216.171.185.75 (talk) 15:50, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Reference? John from Idegon (talk) 15:54, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done The IP is correct:. Altamel (talk) 18:15, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 May 2015
Utica, NY has a diverse collection of cultural venues including, The Munson Williams Proctor arts Institute. Located in downtown Utica, it was founded in 1919 and is named after a prominent local family with the lineage starting with Alfred Munson with his wife Elizabeth. They had two children one of which being Helen who married James Watson Williams. Helen, a well-known creative arts decorator and philanthropist, started to accumulate the family’s art collection, which would be the start of the institute.

Another of the city’s arts institutions is Sculpture space. Sculpture space is an international artist residency located in the heart of Utica; it has been in place since 1976, and it hosts twenty artist each year. Since their opening they have hosted over five-hundred artists from around the world. Sculpture space is a nonprofit association receiving its funds from state and national grants and many private donations.

A more recent addition to the Utica Arts community is, The Utica Music and Arts Festival (UMAF). Which was founded in 2007 by Joe Sweet, Utica native and local business owner. The festival consists of two days, September eleventh and twelfth featuring over 100 bands and artists throughout the city.

Brianlucenti (talk) 15:38, 6 May 2015 (UTC)


 * It is not impossible to include things about cultural institutions, however.....if the text supplied above is exactly what you want to see, that is not going to happen. the subject of the article is the city, not any given institutions in it. What is needed for sourcing is reliable secondary sources like newspapers and magazines discussing the places. What is needed for copy is text describing where and what; some amount of how and who only if the particular who is notable. So for now, ❌

John from Idegon (talk) 17:44, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Images & layout
There are too many images in this article now. Crowded together with the chart and all the tables, they make the page look messy. Manual_of_Style/Images has some guidelines about image layout, and MoS compliance is part of the FA criteria. I'm not going to be the one to decide what images to remove, but I'm trying to help improve the chances of this article succeeding at FAC if it's nominated. Jsayre64 (talk)  06:48, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * An editor recently added several images to the body that I had to remove. How many should be in the History section? I think I may have overloaded it with the picture of the hotel. Buffaboy  talk 15:46, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * On my screen, it looks like the history section can fit up to 4 images. The geography, infrastructure, and education sections look messiest to me right now. I suggest setting many of the images to a smaller size. And the blank space above the climate chart could be filled with a wide image. Here's what I find to be the most important piece of advice from the MoS guideline: "avoid sandwiching text between two images that face each other, or between an image and infobox, navigation template, or similar." Jsayre64 (talk)  16:04, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Climate data is inaccurate
I normally look at the Good article nominations page and when I came to this page and looked at the climate section, there are a couple of problems that were not detected during the good article review (I'm not trying to seek a reassessment of this page).If you compare this to other major cities in New York such as Buffalo, Albany, Syracuse, and New York City, they are correct and follow a similar format which should be present in this article. Ssbbplayer (talk) 04:08, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) In the yearly field for average high and average low, the values are incorrect. The yearly values should be the average of the mean maximum and mean minimum temperatures over those 12 months. Thus from the weatherbase source (I'll try to find this on NOAA since weatherbase is littered with ads and is not that reliable), the yearly value for average high and low should be 56.4 and 36.5 respectively. NOAA does this when they calculate the yearly values for average high, low and mean temperatures.
 * 2) The mean daily sunshine data is inaccurate. The source from weatherbase is based on daylight hours, which would be the theoretical amount of sunshine if no clouds were present. Daylight and sunshine hours are not the same concept and this field should be removed. It would be absurd that Utica has 12.8 hours of sunshine per day on average (which amounts to 4675 hours of sunshine per year, an impossible amount). The percent possible sunshine part is correct and accurate.


 * I found NOAA 1981–2010 normals data for the Utica airport here. Just select the year 2010 and click the button. The data are a bit incomplete but they're good enough for a weather box. I also found data from weather.com here. (They're the same numbers for all of Utica's zip codes.) So I bet you can change the data used for this article at Template:Utica weatherbox from Rome to Utica. Jsayre64  (talk)  06:48, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * That should do it. Buffaboy  talk 15:48, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually, they don't include extremes, so does this mean I keep the ones already there? Buffaboy  talk 02:41, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I just noticed that at the weather.com page you can check the "Record High" and "Record Low" boxes, and then the graph will display the record temperatures for each month. So I recommend you use all those numbers from weather.com to redo Template:Utica weatherbox, so the article will have reliable numbers for Utica instead of Rome, and that should resolve the climate data issues. By the way, I saved an archived version of that webpage because I have a feeling it is likely to soon change or disappear, so now we've got that for future use. Jsayre64  (talk)  03:05, 5 December 2015 (UTC)