Talk:Uyunid dynasty

Material moved from article
This is more or less gibberish - is it a machine translation and if so from where?

The Uyunid family are from the tribe of Abdul Qays know as (Al-Ibrahim) relative to their grandfather, lived in Ahsa, in the oasis known as the (eye) which is still the same name in Nowadays in Al-Mubarraz. A b c w Gulf and Eastern Island date Arabic named: the territory of Bahrain under the Arabic States. Dr. Mohamed Mahmoud Khalil. Madbouli library. I: 2006. ISBN 977-208-592-5 Vachthroa as Al Uyuni relative to this place. ' Abd al-Qays is one of the famous tribes of (Rabia ibn Nizar bin Contagious Adnan), and was endemic to the country of Bahrain since the pre-Islamic era. Alahasaei: a masterpiece of the beneficiary, vol. 1, p. 98 and Abdul Rahman bin Othman: the history of the Principality alaionih, p. 148

Straddle the influence of this state in Al-Ahsa, Qatif and the island of Bahrain was starting rule of (467 AH / 1074 AD) and continued until (636 AH / 1238 AD) almost, where he witnessed the history of the region one of the big countries, which lasted for one hundred and sixty years. Alahasaei: a masterpiece of the beneficiary, vol. 1, p. 98 and Abdul Rahman bin Othman: the history of the Principality alaionih, p. 148  ref Tribe of Ibn Al-jawzi mirror date: c: 13: 38

Also note that "Tribe of Ibn Al-jawzi mirror date: c: 13: 38" makes no sense. I can't trace the other references either. Dougweller (talk) 17:54, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Seljuk
Found this which says they continued to be supported by the Seljuk rulers of Iraq. Dougweller (talk) 17:59, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Uyunid are not Shia
The bellow resources show no real validity what so ever!

^ Nayef bin Abdullah Al-Shr'an, "coins of Uyunid state in Bahrain, King Faisal Center for Researh and Islamic Studies,2002, online version (Arabic) نايف بن عبدالله الشرعان، "نقود الدولة العيونية في بلاد البحرين"، ,مركز الملك فيصل للبحوث والدراسات الاسلامية، 2002 م/1423هـ ^ Faḍl ibn ʻAmmār Al-Ammārī, " bin al Mugrab Al Uyuni and the history of the Uyunid emirate in Bahrain, google books (Arabic) الدكتور فضل بن عمار العماري، "ابن مقرب وتاريخ الامارة العيونية في بلاد البحرين " — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ibrahim888 (talk • contribs)


 * If the first source says "these coins show that the dynasty was Shia then we can use it, but not remove sources that they they were Sunni. But it must be text not an image and we might want to discuss the author also. Who is Nayef bin Abdullah Al-Shr'an? We can't use anything from a forum. Sources must meet the criteria at WP:RS and talk specifically abut the subject. Dougweller (talk) 05:45, 5 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I have found nothing regardin Nayef bin Abdullah Al-Shr'an. However, I found this book, "Reaching for Power: The Shi'a in the Modern Arab World by Yitzhak Nakash, published by Princeton University Press.
 * On page 22, "While it is generally accepted that Shi'ism first appeared in Iraq around the mid-seventh century, and sometime later in Bahrain, Hasa, and Qatif, it is not clear when Shi'is became a majority in this region. The rise of the Carmathians in the late ninth century probably gave a boost to Shi'ism in the area. The Carmathians were a branch of Isma'ili Shi'ism. They defeated the 'Abd al-Qays who ruled Bahrain, Hasa, and Qatif, establishing their own powerful state in the region. This state was destroyed in 1077 by 'Abdallah ibn 'Ali al-'Uyuni, who recognized the suzerainty of the Fatimids of Egypt--adherents of a different branch of Isma'ilism. It is possible that parts of the population of the former Carmathian state accepted Twelver Shi'ism during the 'Uyunid period, which lasted until around 1237".
 * This can be added into the article, without removing how the Uyunid dynasty was initially Sunni.
 * I do believe the coins need to be verified. --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:41, 5 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Late comment, I know. The source is actually using a citation (number 9) to support this attribution. It would be wonderful if anyone could get that source. The first pages of citations including this one are not not available in Google books though.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  18:22, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree! The coins should be verified. Ibrahim888 (talk) 00:41, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
 * User Ashrf1979, continues to edit-war and rewrite the article to suit his/her perspective. None of the coins have been verified and Faḍl ibn ʻAmmār Al-Ammārī's book, "bin al Mugrab Al Uyuni and the history of the Uyunid emirate in Bahrain" source with this quote, "الدكتور فضل بن عمار العماري، "ابن مقرب وتاريخ الامارة العيونية في بلاد البحرين", translates(via google) to this, "Dr. Fadl Ben Ammar Amari, "I'm close and the country emirate Alaaonah in Bahrain", which mentions nothing about the Uyunids or Shiites.
 * If no evidence is provided within a week to verify the coins, then I propose removing both "coin sources" and Al-Ammari's book(since it supports nothing). Using the source, Reaching for Power: The Shi'a in the Modern Arab World, by Yitzhak Nakash, to work into the article the possibility that parts of the population accepted Twelver Shi'ism(as per page 22). --Kansas Bear (talk) 23:21, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
 * As of today, the "coin source" has been removed per copyright violation. --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:51, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

I have been studying the scores added by Ashrf1979 thuraly and non of the sources state or say that they were Shia in any way or form. With Bin al Gurab poetry he never said that he was Shia nor was the dynasty. There for it is conformed that the scores add about the Uyunids being Shia is completely fuels. There for I have removed them from the article.Ibrahim888 (talk) 07:54, 13 January 2013 (UTC)


 * It as been a week and user:Ashrf1979 has apparently decided not to provide sources for his edits. Therefore, with user:Ibrahim888's agreement, I will be removing any sources that do not have a page number and re-writing the article to include reliable sources. --Kansas Bear (talk) 15:49, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree! Ibrahim888 (talk) 17:13, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment The Gulf States: A Modern History I.B.Tauris p28 says the dynasty was founded by a Sunni in 1077 after "bringing down the Ismaili Shi'y commonwealth" Darkness Shines (talk) 18:47, 19 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Are you sure? I have it opened on page 28 currently in Google books . In 1070, an Arab tribal chieftain, Abdulla ibn Ali al-'Uyuni, initiated a series of raids on al-Hasa. With backing from Baghdad, Sheikh Abdulla brought down the Ismaili Shi'i commonwealth in 1077 and founded the Uyunid tribal dynasty that ruled over Bahrain and al-Hasa for about a century. As you can see, there is no mention of their sect. Could you check again the same source?  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  18:35, 20 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment Could anyone verify that the first source used actually supports the material? it would be helpful to share an online link if available.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  18:45, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I've added a tag in the article.  Mohamed CJ   (talk)  08:10, 28 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Where is the 3rd party translations of the "sources" that were questioned, followed by no response, then removed? Whereupon you restored said "sources", without any 3rd party translation. Currently that information has not been verified. You can ask for information concerning the first source here, WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request. --Kansas Bear (talk) 06:41, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * removed belligerent verification tag, since other sources in this article are not in English, thus can not be verified. The Arabic sources can be verified. If you have problem with reading Arabic, you can ask any Arabic reading wikipedian, or you can use Google translator. I'm not aware about any policy requiring third party translation of other language sources, could you cite the specific policy or guideline? The information was accessed by me as indicated in the |accessdate= parameter. I will write in the resource exchange noticeboard, but I think it was better to ask here, since these are the editors who added it in the first place. I searched for the source in Google with no results and waited for more than a week before adding the tag. I would appreciate some good faith here.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  08:42, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I was able to verify the source after following your advice.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  11:55, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Coins


I don't see how any of the pictures show any real validity what so ever. Even the resources you have lead to nothing. I have looked up this book it's self. I feel that this book is not all attached. Only a few pages are talked about this coin. So if the only sources of this coin was played around with. The coins can not be verified. Ibrahim888 (talk) 01:27, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Some helpful sources?
As I have stated in the AN3 noticeboard, my knowledge about this topic is superficial and the topic is usually disputed/heated discussion. I have tried to get more info about it using Google searches and found the following (all in Arabic):
 * : A general article about history of Uyunids in Bahrain without referring to their sect.
 * : A short study by an apparently Shia scholar who cites a book called "The Archaeology of the Arabian Gulf". I was able to find the book in Google, however upon searching for the term "coin" I got no useful results that support the attributed facts.
 * It seems this is one of the sources that Ashrf used. It would be better if we could use the original source "The Archaeology of the Arabian Gulf", if anyone have a full copy of it.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  18:58, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Correction: the author actually uses al Mugrab Al Uyuni book as source, which could any of these three:, and . I haven't looked into any of them in detail, but I got to go now, hopefully I'll continue this discussion later.  Mohamed CJ   (talk)  19:07, 20 January 2013 (UTC)


 * : An article by an apparently Sunni author who gives Uyunids a passing mention as being Shia. He also states in the opening paragraph that his purpose of writing the article is to defend Shia and give a fuller story about their history in Saudi Arabia.
 * : Another article in an apparently Shia website. No author name is given, but it is mentioned who runs the website.

When searching in English there were just some passing mentions that would only refer to them as Arab. I hope this helps a bit to improve/expand the article.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  17:58, 20 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Also, some good articles from Al Wasat newspaper:, , , and .  Mohamed CJ   (talk)  19:15, 20 January 2013 (UTC)


 * In this article Nayef al-shera'an speaks about a study called "نقود الدولة العيونية في بلاد البحرين" published by King Faisal center for studies and mentions that the study said in it's forth chapter that "in the light of the unavailability of reliable sources that prove the Uyunid sultans were Sunnis, then coins are the only evidence that proves they were Shia..". In another article published by the Bahraini newspaper Al Wasat, the author (Hussain Mohamed Hussain) says that "when Uyunids entered Bahrain, the country became Shia, however there are other sources which say it became Sunni". He then mentions the study by Nayef al-shera'an and cites the coins. The rest of the article is about Khamis Mosque. I believe this info warrants mention in the article.  Mohamed CJ   (talk)  20:58, 20 January 2013 (UTC)


 * This Al Wasat article mention and praises a book called "تاريخ الامارة العيونية في شرق الجزيرة العربية" by Abdulrahman bin 'Athman Al Mulla.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  09:04, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

The Rulers of the Uyunid dynasty
I have got the list of the rulers of the Uyunid dynasty. I was wondering if we should add it on to the article?

• Abdullah bin Ali Layouni (1074 - 1107 AD), due proportion to the sons of Abdul-Qais.

• Fadl ibn Abdullah (1107 - 1119 AD), was killed.

• Abu Sinan Mohammed ibn al-Fadl (1119 - 1137 AD), was killed by his uncles Ali Mansour Abdullah bin Sons Ali Layouni.

• Hussein Bin Abdullah (1137 - 1147 AD), came to power after his brother was killed, and he gave to his brother, the other high-Hassa region.

• Greer bin Mohammed bin Fadl ibn Abdullah (1147 - 1154 AD), reprise for the murder of his father when he was killed Governor of Al-Ahsa, and then killed by his cousin.

• Hagras bin Mohammed bin Abdullah (1154 - 1155 AD), took over after killing his cousin Greer.

• Abu thanked Provider bin Hussein bin Abdullah (1155 - 1173 AD).

• Ali Bin Al-Hussein bin Abdullah (1173 - 1177 AD), was killed by his brother Hassan.

• "Zeer" Hassan bin Hussein bin Abdullah (1177 - 1180 AD), was taken from the island of first base for him, and then killed.

• Muhammad ibn Abi Hussein Ahmed bin Mohammed bin Fadl ibn Abdullah (1180 - 1181 AD), moved here to the branch presidency Fadhli of the family, then Muhammad was forced to resign.

• .... (1181 - 1181 AD), he chose the heads of the tribes men from the captains, lasted for forty days.

• Musayyib bin Fadl ibn Abdullah (1181 - 1181 AD), the rule of only two months.

• Hassan bin thanked Bin Ali Bin Abdullah (1181 - 1184 AD), it disintegrated after doing disorders.

• Abdullah bin Mansour bin Ali bin Abdullah (1184 - 1191 AD), came after he appointed his brother Governor of Al-Ahsa.

• Muhammad ibn Abi Hussein Ahmed bin Mohammed bin Fadl ibn Abdullah (1191 - 1209 AD), he returned again, annexation Ahsa him and of the Alaaonyen state in his heyday, ended his command that was assassinated.

• Greer bin Hassan bin thanked Bin Ali Bin Abdullah (1209 - 1209 AD), was his bad before he was killed.

• Fadl ibn Muhammad ibn Abi Hussein Ahmad (1209 - 1219 AD), helped the Abbasid caliph in with taking revenge his father, then isolate.

• Provider bin Majed bin Abi Hussein Ahmad (1219 - 1220 AD), then died Doom nose.

• Fadil Bin Maan Bin Jaafar Bin Fadl (1220 - 1223 AD).

• Ja'far ibn Maan Bin Jaafar Bin Fadl (1223 - 1223 AD), the rule of months, and then directed Masaeed.

• Imad Eddin Mohammed bin Masoud bin Ahmed bin Abi Hussein Ahmad (1223 - 1226 AD), drop his cousin after an alliance with the tribal chiefs.

• Mansour bin Ali bin Mohammed bin Abi Hussein Ahmad (1226 - 1229 AD), the revolution against Zinj Vakedzhawwa first.

• Imad Eddin Mohammed bin Masoud bin Ahmed bin Abi Hussein Ahmad (1229 - 1239 AD), in his reign he spent the Persians on their state.

• Abu Mansur Ali bin Abdullah bin Ali Layouni (1137 - 1154 AD), was killed by the Grey's governor Qatif retaliation for the killing of his father. Ibrahim888 (talk) 07:12, 21 January 2013 (UTC)


 * If you can cite the information from a reliable source, then yes, add it to the article. --Kansas Bear (talk) 07:57, 21 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I would also recommend including them as prose instead of a bulleted list.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  08:29, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Alright, thank you. Ibrahim888 (talk) 04:05, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I have added an informative box before I do any further additional information on to the articleIbrahim888 (talk) 13:23, 29 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Looks nice, keep going :) Just make sure to use inline citations to reliable sources.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  13:51, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Alright, Thank you! :) Ibrahim888 (talk) 05:14, 30 January 2013 (UTC)