Talk:V. T. Rajshekar

Ridiculous

 * Past edits to this article were ridiculous and laughable. Nothing was sourced and the article was clearly edited by Rajshekhar's fringe supporters. I have changed the article with SOURCED statements establishing his extremist views and balanced the article out. Henceforth, please don't vandalize the article with garbage and follow wikipedia's rules while editing.Hkelkar 05:25, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

V T RAJSHEKAR,EDITOR OF “DALIT VOICE ”(A Voice of Persecuted Nationalities denied human Rights) is a Journalist, Writer (Author of 100 books) Philosopher and most important Human right fighter of Untouchables (Officially called SC/ST people by constitution  of Indian State ). He is one of the most vocal human rights leader. He is outstanding Spokesperson of  the Black Untouchables of India(Dalits) and other persecuted nationalities .His Famous book “DALITS- THE BLACK UNTOUCHABLES OF INDIA” Published by Clarity Press, Atlanta ,USA  created history and exposed cruel nature of caste system and sufferings of Untouchables. His fight against tyranny and oppression is well known and ruling establishment several times arrested and draconian laws applied to torture him. His writings and speeches inspired many Untouchables and give them intellectual courage to fight against Caste based oppression unleashed by Brahmanical Social Order (BSO) of Hindus. His knowledge about Indian social system and religion is immeasurable .He has made deep study of Suffering, Persecution and Humiliation of Untouchables (Dalits /SC/ST People) in the BSO controlled Indian society. He is one of the most hated and leave behind out personality of BSO controlled Manuwadi (Manu was a ancient law giver of Hindus who codified dreaded caste laws in ascending order of reverence and descending degree of contempt.)Indian Media. (Both Print &Electronic). Several attempts has been made to silence him and finally treacherous manuwadi Indian Media disregarded him in spite of his achievements in the field of human rights as acknowledged by UN human right commission, His son Salil Shetty is Secretary General of Amnesty International. He never aspired for personal wealth, name and fame. He is still persecuted for his fight against injustice and cruel system of Caste System. Those who believes in justice, truth and human dignity will conduct deep study of “Writing and Speeches of V T RAJSHEKAR ’ a living marvel.. He can reach out to web site: www.dalit voice.org, E-Mail: vtr@ndf.vsnl.net.in, dalit voice@rediffmail.com Ph: 091-080-23366771

Sourcing for dismissal statement
Why would a book by Elst be an adequate source for this statement? As you know, this writer is himself a controversial figure and many editors, including myself, have argued that he doesn't count as an academic source. But whether he is an academic or not is not relevant to this particular point. As you know, big claims need big evidence, and what is needed here is a *news* source, rather than an academic book. There is no reason to think that Elst would be privy to any inside information that the rest of us do not have access to.

As I read about Rajshekar's political positions I can easily understand that a mainstream publication like the Indian Express would have eventually found his views to be too way out for them. But that is not the same as proving that he was dismissed as opposed to, for instance, reaching an agreement with the newspaper that he would resign. Perhaps a search in the news archives for the dates around the time of his departure might yield something to indicate the circumstances under which he left. For example, did he write a departing article or did the newspaper include a statement about his departure? What did the other major papers say? Itsmejudith 09:42, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Valid questions.I will research Rajshekhar's dismissal. However, Elst is presently the most reliable source I could find so it stays.Are you accusing Elst of lying?WP:AGF!!Hkelkar 10:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much for offering to research the circumstances of his departure from Indian Express. WP:AGF applies to us in the WP community, not to sources. We must always read sources with a sceptical eye. Although I am not accusing Elst of deliberately lying perhaps he was repeating as fact something that was only rumour. Or he might have been trying to provoke Rajshekar into responding. That's why, especially when making claims about living people, we have to restrict ourselves to sources that are fact-checked. Itsmejudith 10:46, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

V.T Rajshekar was dismissed from the Indian Express for "writing articles to other papers" which was considered against conduct rules. But the point is this is just an excuse to get rid of him as he became a thorn in the flesh of the Brahminical colleagues in the office. This I have verified from his colleagues in the Bangalore (India) office of the Indian Express. tahir123
 * Thank you, but unless there is a published document of some kind that confirms this - so that a reader of the encyclopedia could check if necessary - there is no reliable source for him being dismissed and the article should simply state that he worked for the Indian Express for a certain time. Itsmejudith 21:50, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Publications
I recommend making a publications section, with seperate subsections for Books, and Pamphlets, and splitting all the pubs up that way. (If anyone knows which are which). Crockspot 15:16, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

POV systemic-bias mess
I have added a POV tag as this article shows systemic bias towards anti-anti-semitism. This chap is Indian, and so far as one can tell from the little information given (especially the book list) mainly concerned with Indian issues, but the article doesn't reflect that. Hoylake 14:27, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

A new version
Please see this new version. NB that I still don't regard it as ideal, as it refers to many statements by Rajshekar that are difficult to check out, e.g. old broadcasts. And it still does not fully explain his arguments in his own terms before the critical stuff on anti-Semitism. Also, the list of books and pamphlets is too long. Perhaps we should restrict the list to those that have an ISBN or have been cited by his critics.

V. T. Rajshekar, in full Vontibettu Thimmappa Rajshekar, also known as V. T. Rajshekar Shetty, (born 1932) is an Indian journalist who is the founder and editor of Dalit Voice ., which has been described as "India’s most widely circulated Dalit journal". He was formerly a journalist on the Indian Express, one of India's leading English language daily papers, where he worked for 25 years.

He is also the author of a great number of pamphlets and books, mainly published by his own organisation.

General position
Rajshekar is associated with the wing of the Dalit movement that has been called an “Afro-Dalit project” because it links the idea of freedom for Dalits conceived of as an indigenous people to the wing of Black liberation that defines Black people as people of African origin. This has been called “epidermal determinism”. Thus Rajshekar makes claims about Dalits being “the original inhabitants of India” and stresses their physical resemblance to Africans. Nevertheless Rajshekar also points out Dalits are not easily distinguishable from other Indians by their skin colour. . He is the founder of the "Dalit Voice" publication, which disseminates information about the "Dalit Voice Movement", a fringe wing of the broader Dalit Movement.

Attitude to castes
Rajshekar’s book ‘’Caste: a nation within the nation’’ declares the Indian castes as nations within the “nation” of India. The book recommends the strengthening of each caste as opposed to the eradication of the caste system. Rajshekhar further demands that the Dalits be deemed superior to all other castes and build a segregated Dalitist state in India. . He has expressed similar views in interviews. .

Attitude to Jews
Rajshekar’s position was described as anti-Semitic in an authoritative survey of contemporary anti-Semitism. . He has claimed that the Jews and the Brahmins of India have the same ethnic origin. He alleges that Jews are "oppressing the Muslims" today and the "Brahmins are persecuting the original inhabitants of India". He has stated that the hoax book Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion is a real Jewish conspiracy and that Indian Jews were "join(ing) hands (with Hindus) to crush Muslims, Blacks and India's Dalits". .

In broadcasts, Rajshekar called Brahmins "The Jews of India" on the grounds that a "Jew is one who is a born Jew. There is no conversion to the Jewish religion". According to him, since "a Brahmin is one who is a born Brahmin", they are "as bad as the Jews". He went on to allege that Jews and Brahmins had joined hands "in a big way" in the USA, England and Europe.

Dalit Voice has published articles about "Zionist conspiracies" regarding Hitler and the Third Reich.

An article in Dalit Voice alleged that “The First World War, the Second World War, the establishment of Communism, the rise of Hitler, were also systematically planned and executed by Zionists.” With his sex scandal, Bill Clinton was the “victim of a Zionist conspiracy”, for the Zionists, who “control the entire American politics, economy and the media as well”, are “angry that Clinton refused to finish the ‘demon’ of Islam and render all-out support to Israel” Dalit Voice has also voiced support for Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's denial of the holocaust. .

Confiscation of passport
In 1986 Rajshekar’s passport was confiscated because of ““anti-Hinduism writings outside of India.” The same year, he was arrested in Bangalore under India’s Terrorism and Anti-Disruptive Activities Act. Rajshekar told Human Rights Watch that this arrest was for an editorial he had written in Dalit Voice, that another writer who republished the editorial was also arrested, and that he was eventually released with an apology. .

Books and pamphlets

 * Brahminism : father of fascism, racism, nazism: Bangalore : Dalit Sahitya Academy, 1993
 * Mahatma Gandhi and Babasaheb Ambedkar: clash of two values: the verdict of history. Bangalore: Dalit Sahitya Akademy, 1989
 * Dalit: the black Untouchables of India (foreword by Y.N. Kly). Atlanta; Ottawa: Clarity Press, c1987 ISBN 0932863051 (Originally published under title: Apartheid in India. Bangalore: Dalit Action Committee, 1979)
 * Apartheid in India: an international problem, 2nd rev. ed. Publisher: Bangalore: Dalit Sahitya Akademy, 1983
 * Who is the mother of Hitler? Bangalore: Dalit Sahitya Akademy, 1984
 * Ambedkar and his conversion: a critique. Bangalore: Dalit Action Committee, Karnataka, 1980
 * Caste - A Nation within the Nation
 * Development Redefined
 * Weapons to Fight Counter Revolution
 * Shape of things to come
 * Grave - Diggers of History
 * Why Dalits Hate Hinduism?
 * India as a Failed State
 * Brahminism
 * Aggression on Indian Culture
 * India's Intellectual Desert
 * The Zionist Arthashastra (Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion)
 * India's Muslim Problem
 * Judicial Terrorism (with Iqbal Ahmed Shariff)
 * When Dalits Disobeyed Final Words of their Father
 * Dalit Voice - A New Experiment in Journalism
 * In defence of Brahmins
 * West Losing War on Muslims
 * Muslims and Mustadafeen

Several problems with this version
(will add more)Hkelkar 00:33, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Too much whitewash. You have removed several references that showcase his anti-Hindu and anti-semitic views
 * 2) His support for Islamic terrorism needs to be added
 * 3) basically you can't remove Elst's quotes for the reasons that they are attributed (not used as secondary and tertiary sources) and that they are supported by authoritative sources in this case.


 * This article is ridiculous. I've read several of Rajshekar's books. He's a nutcase, but this article greatly distorts his views, presenting him as some sort of neo-Nazi obsessed with Jews! I don't remember reading anything about Jews in the booklets of his I've read, an his references to Nazis are all about their alleged links to Brahmanism - presenting the latter as the model for the nasty Nazis. Paul B 11:57, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know about the books (they are many), but in Dalit Voice, there seems to be many anti-semitic statments, search the site for Jew(s) and Holocaust.

--RF 12:15, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The so-called Holocaust of the Jews at the hands of Hitler is the greatest lie...http://www.dalitvoice.org/Templates/jan2006/articles.htm


 * There have been definite antisemitic statements in DV, which can be cited here. But the article is badly structured and gives too much weight to the antisemitism dimension rather than to the attempted critique of Brahamanism. Please go ahead and re-order, summarise and add salient facts. Itsmejudith 14:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Itsmejudith is correct, there is a little too much focus on his anti-Semitism and not enough focus on his polemic anti-Hindu rants. Baka man  17:58, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Categories
Please let us try to keep this article as neutral as possible, given that the subject is a very controversial writer. His viewpoints should be briefly explained here, although I think a lot of the detail should be in the Dalit Voice article instead. Adding him to all sorts of categories does not help the article towards neutrality. It is not necessary if we have summarised the viewpoints carefully in the article. Itsmejudith 15:21, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Not if the categories are appropriate. Categories exist for a reason, namely to guide the reader, which, in this case, it does. Rajshekhar's views are virtually identical to those of Lyndon LaRouche, David Duke and Mahmud Ahmadinejad, and his abuse of academic history to further political propaganda is along the likes of his ideological opposite PN Oak, all of whom are listed in these categories. Nahartasanhedrin 15:33, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * His views can't be identical to the views of LaRouche AND Ahmadinejad, sorry. All this would be much easier were the article properly sourced. Itsmejudith 15:55, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * They are as far as Jews are concerned, which is why this fellow openly supported Ahmadinejad's holocaust denial (and, for all intents and purposes, subscribes to the same conspiracy theories as LaRouche). Nahartasanhedrin 15:57, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * In which case what you need is a recent quote from DV or another publication of his (hopefully DV because it's online, not one of the pamphlets) denying the holocaust, and then he can be added to the category "holocaust deniers". Sorry, but what you see as "for all intents and purposes" I see as WP:OR. I notice that while LaRouche is in but not  it is the other way round for Ahmadinejad. Let's just keep this as a short article sticking to the known facts. See Adolf Hitler or Joseph Stalin for examples - except they were important historical figures, while the subject of this article isn't. Itsmejudith 16:04, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * How about this and this and this then? Nahartasanhedrin 16:09, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * How about this for Jewish conspiracy theories? How about this] for antisemitic accusation of "Jewish Lobby"Nahartasanhedrin 16:12, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It's antisemitic. It's in Dalit Voice. Would be better added to that article, since none of the pieces are signed by Rajshekar. Also, the article should really be written up from secondary sources. DV in this context is a primary source. Look, I honestly do not want to keep out of the article everything that might reflect badly on the subject. However, it still is a biography of a living person. It should be impeccably referenced. Itsmejudith 16:21, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

How to deal with incorrect statements?
I completely understand the desire not to let incorrect statements stand, but this way of dealing with the problem reads awkwardly. I'm going to ask for advice on how best to handle it. Itsmejudith 20:31, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Meanwhile if anyone can show parallels in other articles (preferably GA, FA) then that would be great. Itsmejudith 20:32, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I didn't know the best way to deal with it either, obviously. At the same time, I think my insertion of "incorrect" was accurate, while the one that came later (here) was, well, in a word, incorrect, which is why I reverted it, explaining my reversion to the editor who made it on his talk page.  Cheers, Tom e rtalk  04:20, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

On the POV template
Everything in the article seems sourced, and I was considering removing the tag. However, the tag was originally placed to indicate that the article focussed too heavily on antisemitism which is presumably a small fraction of his views and not those he is notable for in India. (Presumably anti-Brahminism is more important.) Given that, I'm leaving it on for now, but adding Template:Globalize which I think is what is actually needed. Relata refero (talk) 17:24, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Good idea, thanks. There is one reference to the Dalit Voice website that does not link to any particular article and is thus pointless. The references to the publication are also quite old. The two from the early 1990s are, I think, those cited by Leon Poliakov in the last volume of his history of antisemitism. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:21, 29 January 2008 (UTC)