Talk:V for Vendetta/Archive 2

Racist Characterization
Please people, if you're going to say a topic is racist, make sure you have a cited source. Wikipedia is no place for original research, all statements must be cited, especially those of possible controversy. This article was in a list of maintenance tasks simply for the use of one word racist in an uncited fashion. See wp:v and wp:npov. Great article otherwise. Alan.ca 07:18, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Orphaned points
Points taken from the article and placed here, until we can find a place for them.


 * (Closed-circuit television had not yet become common in the UK at the time Moore wrote the series. Today, London has the world's highest concentration of C.C.T.V.)

External links to references
Okay, I've converted the external links into reference format. Hiding talk 14:17, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Fabulous, it's really starting to come together now.Logan1138 17:11, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Somewhere I've got a sketch Lloyd did for me of V for Vendetta, I've just asked at WP:FU if I can upload it and use it in this article. Hiding talk 19:23, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it would pass. I seem to remember a similar thing popping up on a 2000AD related article where the answer was no.Logan1138 07:30, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah. That's probably to do with the unpublished nature of the work, I guess.  Still, what else needs doing?  Hiding  talk 08:42, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Things to do:


 * Expand the plot.
 * Going over the citations
 * Quotes on Wikiquote
 * Formatting (do we need the chapter titles for example).

Anyone else have any suggestions?Logan1138 12:04, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

RE: Section "Adaptations" Film, Citation #9
Hello, I am a newly registered wiki user so please forgive if this is not the right place to ask this question. However, I am concerned about the citation in the Adaptations section of this article under Film. Citation 9 is a quote from Alan Moore taken from another website article by Megan Basham. The website is Townhall. com and it is an extremely right-wing conservative article as well as website.

I would like to know where the original source for this quote comes from because I feel that it very likely misrepresents or skews Mr. Moore's own words. It was clearly placed in the article cited with a political agenda. I feel it is irresponsible to reproduce it here without the original quote source.

Thanks, Renjem


 * Moore's quoted from an MTV interview,, and it's pretty much in context as used in the article, Moore objects to them using his story to make a film attacking Bush; Moore's point is that his story was very much about England. Hiding talk 18:19, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Modified the film section to include details as to why Moore did not support the film (the old quotes from the Independent did not go into the reasons why). I also cited the original MTV interview about Moore, which places the second quote into the proper context that it was intended for.--P-Chan 22:04, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with Renjem on this issue. The way that Alan Moore was quoted by Townhall.com was not an accurate portrayal of Moore's original argument. The quote has appeared on several Conservative talk shows and articles in a manner that seems to portray Alan Moore as a conservative.  I have not researched Alan Moore extensively, but I believe that this is not accurate.  While he did denounce the film as having a liberal slant... he did so, not because he was conservative, but rather because he was an Anarchist.  He believes that V for Vendetta is a story about Anarchy and about Britain; and that if the filmmakers wanted to protest America, they should have done what Moore himself had done and not be cowards.  I believe the quote can be placed into a more neutral and accurate context by:
 * pairing the quote with a citation from the original MTV interview that Hiding has provided
 * and by lengthening the quote and providing enough context to accurately represent Alan Moore.
 * --P-Chan 22:29, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Bloody good job you made of it too. Well done. Hiding The wikipedian meme 20:20, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks dude! --P-Chan 00:43, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I am new to this discussion. I'm thinking that two things are missing here. First is that Moore denounced the film before he knew anything about it. The quote is interesting and all, but it's his overarching rejection of Hollywood that prompted his disgust, not the actual movie.

Second, David Lloyd's positive reaction to the movie is completely omitted. He is co-author, and his opinion is also worthy. I'm going to edit the article to include this, but I also wanted to bring it up here, since this article has an active group working on it. :)

-AngelaHarms 15:48, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Too mUch
Too much summary, not enough analysis. Spoilers should be outlawed o nthis site, its an encyclopedia not a fan site


 * I see no problem leaving the summary up, as knowing the plot of such a complicated story is necessary for analysis. Instead, I think the analysis should be added alongside of the summary already written.

Allusions
I don't know if it is the case in the graphic novel or not, but in the movie there is an allusion to emma goldman (anarchist) when he wants to dance and evey talks about it being the eve of his revolution and he says something along the lines of "if i can't dance, then what's the point of a revolution" which is along the lines of the attributed quote of emma goldman of "If I can't dance, it's not my revolution" which comes from a story in a book she wrote. I think this should be included if this scene happened in the comic as well. KurtFF8 21:04, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Nope, it isn't


 * Well being that there are clear anarchist values in V for Vendetta, common sense would dictate that they would know about Emma Goldman and that this scene would most likley be an allusion to the famous attributed quote of hers. KurtFF8 06:56, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * In the novel, the name "Emma" is scratched onto the bench in Evey's cell though! TR_Wolf

Stockholm syndrome
Shouldn't something be said about how Evey's imprisonment by V and subsiquent identification with him more like the Stockholm syndrome than anything else?


 * Well, sure. Though the tone of the film hints strongly that V is The Good, it should definitely be mentioned that Stockholm syndrome is a plausible rebuttal. Liu Bei 02:59, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * If it were a real event, well maybe. But this is literature!  Discussion on SS would add little value, methinks.  But, in the spirit of shutting this idea down, Evey clearly identified with V as her hero long before her captivity -- more so in the comic than the movie.

V points
I think there a few key changes that could really help this article gain a lot strenght.


 * 1) For reasons that I don’t quite understand, there is no section in this article dedicated to the discussing the Anarchist/Fascism themes of the novel.  This definetly should be in the themes section or some other section, considering it’s a major backdrop of the comic.  (I just noticed that people talk about it a lot here).  This was requested quite often in the film article, even though the film removes many of the anarchist references.  The home of that discussion should really be here.
 * 2) Remove the titles concerning the chapters.  I don’t think the names of all the chapters, add that much value to the article.  They look nice and all, but it feels like just listing.  The titles have some value in the novel because they connect to the themes, but when they aren’t correlated to the story itself they pretty much lose their meaning.  That extra room could be used for something else...
 * 3) Like stating 1 or two lines about each of the characters.  That would be helpful, as the comic seems to have a sprawling use of characters.  A summary of each of them would help alleviate some of the pressures of talking about everyone in the plot.
 * 4) The overall structure of the article starts off weak, with a lead that is a little skimpy and a Publishing History section that seems a little too textbook.  I’m afraid that readers might lose interest if they aren’t hit by something hard early on.  We should fix this by strengthening the lead to two solid paragraphs and by moving some of the plot elements into it.
 * 5) This article seems a little too introverted, in that there seems to be a lack of external views or inputs.  Hasn’t anyone reviewed it?  Been moved by it?  Influenced by it?  Let’s bring in some analysis, outside opinions, something to give it a more worldly feel.  (Wasn’t this a controversial film when it first came out?)

These are simply my 2 cents.

--P-Chan 05:23, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Some quick press cuttings, may be of some use?


 * From The Independent (London); Mar 15, 2004; Jeremy Duns; p. 12.13

V FOR VENDETTA

Begun in 1982 but not completed until 1988, this is a bleak futuristic thriller about Britain under a fascist dictatorship, featuring a vigilante in a Guy Fawkes mask stalking the streets. David Lloyd's wonderful chiaroscuro artwork is one of the high points at Charleroi, with 80 original panels on display, as well as several of Moore's typewritten scripts. Moore marks this as a turning-point in his career, and credits Lloyd for encouraging him to write the script without sound effects or thought balloons.


 * From The Herald (Glasgow); Nov 24, 2001; Words Teddy Jamieson, Photograph Graham Barclay; p. 18

"Moore began to work for DC, home of Superman and Batman and by the mid-eighties helped prompt a mini fad for comicbooks in the style mags courtesy of V for Vendetta, his vision of a future Britain (circa 1997) under the jackboot of fascism (this was the Thatcher era after all)"
 * and

"V for Vendetta (1988) Moore's response to Thatcherism imagined the establishment of a fascist state in Britain. How, he wondered, could he signal this to his readers? 'I know I'll put a security camera on every corner. That will chill their blood. And here we are.'"


 * The Independent (London); Dec 9, 2000; Charles Shaar Murray; p. 10

"celebrate the return to print of Moore's early left-anarchist masterpiece V For Vendetta"


 * The Times (London); May 29, 2004; Daniel Morden; p. 10

"Through comics he has written a gripping dissection of the Jack the Ripper story (From Hell), explored the relationship between art and magic (Promethea) and created a chillingly real fascist Britain (V For Vendetta)."


 * A Lloyd quote of use? News Letter (Belfast); Aug 3, 2005; p. 3

David Lloyd adds: In terms of what happened in London, it is important to try to understand what leads people to terrorism.

There should be lots of movies made about terrorism.$


 * Reviews:


 * Graphic novel/Comics:
 * readysteadybook.com
 * sffworld Perhaps not the most reliable source
 * Forbidden Planet
 * UGO.com
 * scifi.com
 * Schnews a Brighton based anarchist free sheet
 * Film:
 * BBC
 * Rolling Stone
 * Salon This covers the book in the last two paragraphs
 * Jonathon Ross for the BBC he disregards the book somewhat
 * Queens Gazette mainly the film, but useful last paragraph comparing badly with 1984 and Farehnheit 451
 * Hope they help. The Journal has looked at the comic, but I don't have those specific issues. Hiding Talk 13:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * It is a mystery to me as to how we should proceed. Is there some comic book god out there, like Ebert for films, whose opinions would be highly valued?  I'm right now looking at the Watchman article, and am wondering if V for Vendetta had any sort of an impact, like Watchman did.  (Excuse the late reply, I just didn't know how to go about approaching this section). --P-Chan 03:29, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I just started a new section called "significance". To anyone who knows the V for Vendetta history, feel free to attack it.--P-Chan 03:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Warrior issue number : wrong?
Caption says #5, pic clearly shows issue #19. Some mistake? --Oscarthecat 21:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes it was, but it's now fixed. Good eye.--P-Chan 17:07, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Weird stuff
What's with Timothy Leary and V for Vendetta?? The comments about V for Vendetta and Timothy Leary in the section on Anarchy Vs Fascism... is the third time I've heard the two connected somehow. The Wachowski Bros make Portman learn about Timothy Leary in order for her to play her role in the film. And V for Vendetta was one of the last books Timothy Leary read before he died. 

Weird stuff. This can't be a coincidence. Anyone know the link?--P-Chan 07:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Go read anything about or by Leary. In fact, his wikipedia entry itself should give pretty good reasons for the link, if you're familiar at all with the comic.  There's the whole LSD episode, for starters.  His quote "tune in, turn on, and drop out" (I think I 'em in the right order) is pretty anarchistic in that it urges you to develop what talents you have, pay attention to the world, and accept no social authority for the sake of social authority.  There's a really interesting picture on Leary's 1972 arrest.  The look on his face is exhilarated, triumphant, and free -- a wonderfully dissonant picture, but besides the photo itself, it's the face of someone who has faced their fear and is now laughing at it.  I'm by no means a Leary admirer myself, but hey, you wanted to know the link.  208.61.125.61 04:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

To quote V, "there is no coincidence, there is only the illusion of coincidence".

Novelization
I believe that a link to the film novelization is worthwhile here, but it was reverted. Let's discuss. Lord Bodak 21:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * If anywhere, it should be belong in the film article, as opposed to here. It's based on the screenplay itself.  On the cover of the novel it says:


 * "An uncompromising vision of the future from the creators of The Matrix trilogy"
 * "A novelization by Steve Moore based on the screenplay written by the Wachowski brothers".


 * (Note the absense of Alan Moore or even the comic itself.) One compromise would be to write a few lines within the film part in this article, that would link to the novelization article.  --P-Chan 21:26, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I added the blurb to the film article, as there is no doubt that it belongs there (other films have the same thing). I agree with your recommended compromise for this article, though. Lord Bodak 21:33, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Third party resolution
I am an average joe with no axe to grind here. I did see a request for third party moderation regarding this article. I am specifically asking what the problem is and what should be done. And hopefully we can come to some kind of agreement. Anyone with further concerns can contact me on my talk page. Thanks. Piercetp 00:29, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Never heard anything about this myself. Are you sure?  Where did you see this?  --P-Chan 00:56, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * At Third opinion it was posted:
 * V for Vendetta page needs a third opinion regarding ambiguities in the V character's identity and, now, historical development outside the text. See Talk:V for Vendetta particularly under "The disclaimer" subsection. 01:04, 31 March 2006 (UTC). I decided I would check out what was going on here.


 * Basically I am just trying to help out and find what is going on here. You seem to have edited this article quite a bit. Are there any disputes here? Piercetp 02:09, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Judging by the date, (March 31st), it must be the section in the archive under "The disclaimer". I had no idea that 3rd party arbitration was requested, as it was before my time in terms of my participation.  In any case, I think it's all good now.  :)  Your vigilance is appreciated though! --P-Chan 02:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Good work on the article. Piercetp 04:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Reference
Can whoever wrote this article ask the author Lloyd whether the character Lewis Prothero is based on a real person. I suspect that the name may be taken from John Profumo, a disgraced British politician.

The FLAG Would Make A Good Desktop Background...
If memory serves me correctly (and for such an appropriate flag, I can't think why it wouldn't). Didn't there use to be a decent flag on this article? I was a cross between the Union Jack, the American Flag and the Flag of the Third Reich (it had a swastika seamlessly embedded within it). I just felt that the flag should be included in the article. Whoever made it spent considerable amounts of laudable time and effort on it.

--Nukemason 15:34, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The flag in question only appears in the movie, never in the comic, so it doesn't really belong here. And it's only in one brief scene in the movie, so while it is well done, it probably doesn't merit inclusion in the movie article either. -- Le Scoopertemp [  tk  ] 14:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * There was a pannel showing the Government's flag in the comic, but in the comics, the flag used is simply an N on a coloured background (the pannel's in black and white, so I don't know what colour). I just thought someone might find that interesting ;) Th ε Halo Θ 01:55, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

The Houses of Parliament and the Old Bailey
Just a note to anyone reading this before editing the main page. This article is about the V for Vendetta comic book. In the book, V blows up the Houses of Parliament first and the Old Bailey later. Please don't change the article to say he blows up the Bailey first just because that's what happens in the film. -- Le Scoopertemp [  tk  ] 21:23, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Communist
In the movie he is a socialist, not an anarchist.


 * Firstly, this article is about the comic, not the movie. Secondly, how do you figure?  That's an awfully bald and undefended statement.  Thirdly, communism and socialism aren't the same thing -- it would be possible to be an anarchist and a communist (if your commune genuinely springs from voluntary association and does not persecute those who secede), but not a *socialist* (believes in social obligation enforced by central authority) and an anarchist.  68.215.183.56 20:10, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Numerology
''In terms of numerological meanings the number 5 is the symbol for an individual with a highly progressive mindset, with the attitude and skills to make the world a better place. The key word for this person’s Life Path is freedom. In the pursuit of freedom, he is naturally versatile, adventurous, and advanced in your thinking. You are one of those people who is always striving to find answers to the many questions that life poses. 5 is the number most often associated with the productive use of freedom. A person who associates with the number 5 is perhaps the most compassionate of people as the 5 is surely the most freedom-loving and compassionate Life Path. His love of freedom extends to humanity at large, and concern for his fellow man, his freedom and his welfare, may be foremost in your mind. He is a good communicator, and you know how to motivate people around him.This may be his strongest and most valuable trait. Because of this skill, and the individuals amazing wit, he is a truly natural born salesman. This ability to sell and motivate extends to any sort of physical product all the way through to whatever ideas or concepts you may embrace. The individual who associates himself with the number 5 abhors routine and boring work, and you are not very good at staying with everyday tasks that must be finished on time. On the average, the number 5 personality is rather happy-go-lucky; living for today, and not worrying too much about tomorrow. It is also important for him to find a job that provides thought-provoking tasks rather than routine and redundant responsibilities. He does best dealing with people, but the important thing is that you have the flexibility to express yourself at all times. he an innate ability to think through complex matters and analyze them quickly, but then be off to something new. A love of adventure may dominate the life of someone associated with the number 5.. This may take the form of mental or physical manifestation, but in either case, you thrill to the chance for exploration and blazing new trails. Surely he belongs to a group considered the most worldly and traveled. Clearly he is not one to pass up a good venture. He has quite a lot of the risk-taker in your makeup. If he isn’t putting his money at stake, you are surely open to a wide variety of risks in his everyday life. Taking the conservative approach is just not in his nature. In romance, the number 5 suggests that the individual hates to be tied down and restricted. This doesn't necessarily mean that he is unfaithful or promiscuous, but it does mean that a good partner for him needs to understand his nature. A relationship based on jealousy and having tight reigns is not going to work at all for him. A partner who understands his need to be free and trusted will find him trustworthy, even if he isn’t constantly available and totally dutiful. It is important for him to mix with people of a like mind, and to try to avoid those that are too serious and demanding. An individual living on the negative side of the Life Path 5 is apt to be multitalented, but suffering from some lack of direction, and there is confusion surrounding his ambition. Restless, discontent, and impulsive, he may bounce from one job to the next without accomplishing much at all. A negative Life Path 5 can become very irresponsible in tasks and decisions concerning the home and business life. The total pursuit of sensation and adventure can result in his becoming self-indulgent and totally unaware of the feelings of those around him.''


 * Someone might want to look at boiling all that down for inclusion in the Number 5 section. It doesn't really belong in the Significance section, to my mind. -- Le Scoopertemp [  tk  ] 01:20, 20 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The five thing is far more likely to be a reference to the law of fives, as in Illuminatus! especially as V quotes ideas about Verwirrung and Ordnung taken from that book anyway. --KharBevNor 17:05, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

V's Abilities
First, the current description of V's 'powers' is taken from the film: apart from the thing about fingers (which not only seems to have been dropped after chapter 3 (V is clearly shown using daggers in his attacks on Bishop Lillimans residence and Jordan tower) we have Delia Surridges account that there is 'nothing wrong with him', ie. his body hasn't changed. Therefore, it seems safer to assume that V's strength in the first attack is either an internal inconsistency within the novel, or has some other explanation (V may have undergone intense physical training, or it might have been a gadget similiar to his exploding hand. Indeed, the exploding hand and the smokescreen may indicate that when V was concieved his arsenal was to be more advanced, possibly incorporating artificial limbs, as he seems to completely abandon such devices as the novel progresses, moving on to far more simple weapons (mainly knives and a suicide bomb). Remember that it was originally written as a serial and that early episodes couldn't be revised as ideas were changed. Moore also says of his character concept 'the central character could be some sort of escapee, psychologically altered by his stay in a Government Concentration Camp.' ('Behind the Painted Smile' article in the back of the current Vertigo edition of V For Vendetta, emphasis mine). Delia Surridge describes his condition as a form of schizophrenia, and also mentions that he regards people like insects, indicating that he may be some form of sociopath. His mental condition (which, remember, was revealed to Finch only when he took LSD) seems to be a sort of mixture of schizophrenia and autism (note his strange obsessions, such as the number five and Guy Fawkes), combined with a vast intelligence. V also seems to think about things in an entirely different way to most people, seeing the big picture rather than individual events and drawing connections between things in abstract ways that allow him to orchestrate his plots without attracting peoples attention (ie. his escape from Larkhill using fertiliser and grease solvent). As for his memory, it should be noted that V does refer to his childhood in his speech to to the statue of Justice, however, since the whole speech is melodramatic and metaphorical, this probably doesn't mean anything. If no one has any objections to what I'm saying, I will edit the article with a much trimmed down version of this. Remember this is an article about the graphic novel, NOT the film. --KharBevNor 17:25, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Something funny
A politician in Taiwan called Li Ao recently disrupted a national defense committee meeting by spraying tear gas while wearing the Guy Fawkes mask from V for Vendetta. Pics Shawnc 21:46, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I saw that on the news... Puddles26 17:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikiquote
I've gone through and added quotes to wikiquote's article on V for Vendetta. However, people keep on adding quotes from the movie. So far, I've just been removing them as they come in. Is there any other way to keep them out?

Also, I'm thinking that the monologues should be organized into a seperate section so they don't stick out elsewhere. Any thoughts on this? Simply Curious 03:30, 1 November 2006


 * Is there a reason that information complying with WP:V (referenced, verifiable information) should not be included in the article (such as quotes from the movie) ? Terryeo 21:49, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Because the quotes are being mixed in with ones from the comics, making it impossible to tell where they're from. Simply Curious 02:20, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Forgot to add that the movie has its own article. --Simply Curious 20:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Number 5 Theme
Some of the examples mentioned in the section on V/5 are a bit irrelevant in my opinion. (e.g. "V's hand and feet each have five fingers and toes respectively"; "Hugo WeaVing played V in the film"; "Ctrl-V is the 'paste' function on PC computers") Also, putting this information in the form of a numbered list seems kind of pointless when more than one point is listed under each number (unless this is supposed to be another clever instance of the number 5). Does anyone else agree with me? Stebbins 06:26, 8 November 2006 (UTC)\

I agree. I removed the irrelevant examples; hope that improved the article. --Releeshan 20:06, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I have a feeling that some of the irrelevant V/5 points might be a form of subtle vandalism. (This is something that has happened on V for Vendetta (film) article as well.)  Just a thought, and something to be aware of.--P-Chan 00:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Comics B-Class Assesment required
This article needs the B-Class checklist filled in to remain a B-Class article for the Comics WikiProject. If the checklist is not filled in by 7th August this article will be re-assessed as C-Class. The checklist should be filled out referencing the guidance given at Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment/B-Class criteria. For further details please contact the Comics WikiProject. Comics-awb (talk) 17:54, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

C-Class rated for Comics Project
As this B-Class article has yet to receive a review, it has been rated as C-Class. If you disagree and would like to request an assesment, please visit WikiProject_Comics/Assessment and list the article. Hiding T 14:41, 24 February 2009 (UTC)