Talk:V sign/Archive 1

Latin meaning?
There is more to say.


 * There's another explaination for the V sign before Winston Churchill that V is for Vincermo -- "We shall overcome" in Latin. I don't know if it was true. -- Toytoy
 * Don't think Vincermo is latin :/ - The preceding signed comment was added by Nazgjunk (talk • contrib) 13:22, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Vincerimus is the Latin for "we shall overcome".--ukexpat 20:45, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

First and second finger?
Isn't it second and third finger? This is more in line with what both Thumb and Middle Finger say. (no, i'm not that bold) - The preceding signed comment was added by Nazgjunk (talk • contrib) 13:22, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Obscene Gesture
I think completely missing from the text is the obscene connotiation the V-sign can have, which is pulling apart the labia in order to perform cunnilingus, for example on the mother of the person to be insulted. I'd put it there put didn't find a quotable source. gbrandt 20:44, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

That meaning/use of the V-sign had been added. It was subsequently removed with the reason given on the history page: "has nothing to do with a 'sign.'" I reveretd it because the objection doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If the objection is that the cunnilingus usage isn't a "sign" in a semotic sense, I don't see how that is possible. In that sense it clearly stands for the cunninlingus act, and when used can be interpreted as a noun or a verb. It is certainly no less deserving of mention than the "air quotes" usage, which is a sign made with two fingers not even very much conforming to a "V". --joeOnSunset 02:46, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I've never seen this particular gesture done without the signer sticking out his tongue and wagging it up and down between his fingers, so I've added a note about that. There's a brief scene in Dogma where Jay does this to Silent Bob, for example. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 19:15, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Images?
Could someone please add some relevant images so that it helps other culture people? --Rrjanbiah 05:26, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

yeah I did put up an image


 * V-sign Made in LondonThis iconic picture is from the late 70s or early 80s. It was used extensively in the press at the time. It has also been used in a feature film as a very large poster which is a backdrop on a stage at a rally (Can't rember the film's name). It shows a young English football hooligan, with "Made in London" tattooed on his forehead, who has been arrested (note the handcuffs), flicking V at a press photographer. I think he was a Millwall supporter "No one likes us we don't care". Philip Baird Shearer

Thanks for your good work. I think, different V signs may put up with the article to provide the exact difference and meaning. --Rrjanbiah 10:09, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

what about the image of An Iraqi woman after casting her vote at a polling station in Tehran, in 2005? it's not plausible to me why an iraqi woman casts a vote in teheran. can anyone explain this, or is the information false?--filip 23:37, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

As noted, the reference seems incorrect. Delete the "in Tehran" ? Or does that cast doubt on the image as a whole ?

Note this photo - again referring to Iraqi voting in Tehran - could there be another Tehran ? http://www.arabnews.com/?page=4&section=0&article=74699&d=15&m=12&y=2005

-- Beardo 04:34, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The article makes a reference to the fact that Iraqis that don't live in Iraq are allowed to vote: "In 15 countries from Australia to Europe, North America and the Middle East, 80,000 expatriates were already casting ballots in a three-day process that began Tuesday..." So it makes sense that Iraqis living in Iran could be voting. -- Plutor 15:14, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Cuckoldry
Another explanation for the "bunny ears" mode of insult could be made and linked to the cuckold page, as it is theorised to stem from the olden practice of putting the (stag) horns of the cuckold on a man.

IMHO to tenuous for the article, but interesting to see on the discussion page Philip Baird Shearer

Well, the Corna article goes into a bit of detail on the cuckold meaning of the corna gesture and lists the V-sign as regional a variation of it. Seems like that should get mentioned somewhere in the article.209.11.161.235 21:37, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Ranma
It sounds like total baloney to me, practically a non sequitur. Request for comments. Thoughts? I'll remove it otherwise later. D. G. 03:27, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Well, that did happen in an episode of Ranma 1/2, but the "posed photograph" suggestion really doesn't make much sense. I say remove it, unless, of course, we really *want* to list every instance of the V sign in pop culture... Lachatdelarue [[User talk:Lachatdelarue|(talk)]] 03:34, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Right, I'm not saying I think it's false, it just seems irrelevant. It seems to imply that this proves that (original research?) the V sign is used to pose for photographs in Japanese culture?? Which is, er, well, actually there already is a good and interesting bunch of notes on that, including the thing about the ice skater, which I thought was interesting. I'm removing it now. D. G. 10:13, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Winston Churchill
The idea that Winston Churchill should, by virtue of his upper-class upbringing, be unaware of the meaning of the V-sign seems difficult to believe, if the sign was anywhere near as popular as it was when I was growing up in the UK in the 1970-1980's. I think that I can say with safefly, that anyone and everyone knew the abusive meaning of the sign during that period, no matter what their social class. It is possible that Churchill's use of the sign and other factors, increased its popularity from a minor abusive sign, that he may have been unaware of, to one in common use. I think that it is more likely that Churchill, a man not afraid to be rude at times (so legend and wikiquotes has it), used the sign with both meanings deliberately: allowing himself the luxury of using an abusive sign towards the Germans by pretending it only meant "Victory." His abivalent use of the sign would then be understood as a way of appealing to a variety of British audiences.

Discordianism and the Occult
Is the Discordian stuff really notable? I speak as some one who dabbled in discoridan non-sense in the past. Should we add their random veiws to all the subjects they have said something daft on?--JK the unwise 17:07, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't think that any discordian reference would have been just some random shit about hotdog buns or something, but a relevent etymological reference explaining how the sign morphed from a war victory sign to a peace sign, without the discordians, the transition makes no sense! i'm not going to put it back in, but i do think it's relevent...jj


 * There is as little as one line-drawing with a caption of the subject of the V sign in PD (p00033), so I don't think anyone would object to the removal of that. As for the other claims, I can't say. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spooky Donkey (talk • contribs) 12 October 2005

Insulting V sign
If I travelled around the USA and made the insulting V sign (palm towards me and the back of the hand towards other people) at people, would they know what it was, or would they think I was making the celebratory V sign? &mdash; J I P  | Talk 07:54, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
 * No, the vast majority would not know the insulting meaning. AriGold 18:10, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Or the celebratory meaning. In the US it is generally considered to be the Peace Sign. pcrtalk 20:20, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Indeed, in a noisy restaurant or bar the staff and patrons will commonly use this to mean 'two' (as in: table for two, or two beers etc.) pcrtalk 00:27, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Sure, also one, three, four. MartinGugino 22:07, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

"Highly insulting"
The palm-inward V-sign may be insulting but certainly not "highly". --Greg K Nicholson 22:17, 18 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I suppose it depends where you are. It's certainly the most offensive hand gesture in my books.  --   the     GREAT     Gavini   16:59, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It is NOT explicitly stated what the BrCommWeal MEANING of the "Highly insulting" sign is!! I'm left to assume it is the Same as the US's finger (based Solely on the Accompanying exclamation, "FU"). 63.145.34.130 (talk) 19:33, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

In the USA, the third finger, FU, is the favorite choice in traffic. The choice of the deranged: that's got to mean something. MartinGugino 22:05, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

V for peace?
It seems really, really strange that the section on its use as a "peace sign" (outside of Japan) is the shortest, considering that for the last few decades, that's been the most recognizable use for it as far as I've seen. I'd expand it, but I don't know what to expand it with... there's got to be something. -- Hinotori(talk) 12:54, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * i agree. i'll try to incorporate that in the opening paragraph.Joeyramoney 03:37, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
 * "but I don't know what to expand it with" -Perhaps that Exactly explains the reason for the brevisty of which you complain? I would not assume your experience ("as far as I've seen") could Possibly validate "the most recognizable use". 63.145.34.130 (talk) 19:34, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I've always assumed the V as a sign for peace originated from the idea that victory in war equals peace. Therefore victory in World War II meant peace in Europe, while peace without victory (ex. World War I, Korea, Israel-Palestine, coming soon to Iraq) is not peace at all and only leads to more war. --Stolypin, 8 December 2006

In Yugoslavia
The Croats did not use the V-sign, instead the used tha entire hand like Hitler The Bosnians used the V-sign and some used the index finger The Serbs used the 3 fingers (Trinidy)


 * I must say this is completely false. Even if a few individuals did use an entire hand sign, it certainly was not in any way meant to represent some sort of an identification with Hitler. The vastly and most commonly held opinion in Croatia is that the V-sign is in some way representative of the nation. Also, Tudjman was known to raise his hand in a form of salute in many of his public speeches and not just during the war. I didn't even like Tudjman, but to say his hand salute had a fascistic connotation is probably a wee bit over the top.
 * That said, you should always sign your posts here with four consecutive tildes. I also took the liberty of re-formatting your text in three lines as that is what you appear to have intended, judging by the formatting of the source. Denis Kasak 04:42, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

The Croats did use the V-sign
My father (a Croat born in Bosnia) who fought in the war never did that and all the pictures of him and his fellow troops have them holding the V-sign, if you ever call the modern Croatian people fascist and compare us to the NDH just because of a couple of skin-heads you might as well call the modern US American a Klansman.-Croatnik 21:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Man, i have video evidence that Franjo Tudman standing on a ledge and his army is marching they used the Hitler raised hand, but it is different when the Croats helped the bosniaks they couldn't use the hitler hand so they had to use the v-sign, but the Bosnians used the most.

Is it called 'the fingers' anywhere?
Before going in and editing, I want to clarify whether anyone has actually heard the V-sign called "the fingers", as stated here. It's a common gesture where I live (London), but it's only ever been called "the V-sign" and only ever meant "fuck off".


 * Growing up in Cornwall and now living in Sussex, I've only ever heard it called either 'the V sign' or 'flicking the Vs' DuncanHill 23:34, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Greece
I believe this is an offensive gesture in Greece as well, derivating from the even more offensive showing of the out thrusted palm (which I think is called a moutza). Could anyone confirm or expand on this? ArabianShark 17:30, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

V's
I don't know about anywhere else in the UK but it's almot always referred to as "the V's" where I live "Cumbria".

Frequent spamming of this article
While examining the history of the article, I have observed many changes to it which were malicious in nature. The most commonly used tactics by spammers was to delete a paragraph of text and replace it with some spam links. The spam was removed but the content was not restored, resulting in an article much poorer in content than it was before. I shall be doing a restoration of the aforementioned content. It should also be noted that I will not simply revert the article back to its previous state, but do it in a series of edits instead, as many subtle and beneficial changes (added references, spelling corrections) were made to the article during the period in which the article was repeatedly vandalised. Denis Kasak 05:01, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

V for Fuck You, the finger for Up Yours?
My experience in the UK (1972 - 2002) was that "the V's" meant "Fuck You" and the finger meant "Up Yours". Is this common or am I reading too much into it? pcrtalk 00:30, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't remember seeing 'the finger' until the mid 80's in Cornwall, but the V's were always with us. DuncanHill 21:10, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I have always heard exactly the same as Pacaro, I even heard the explanation for the V, that it was originally a roman salute often used quite friendlily (not a word, I know) to mean, 'go forth and multiply'....all just something I heard from some guy in a pub though....Restepc

V sign and Gaullism
I think you could add a paragraph about V sign in France.

The V sign (for "victoire", in response to German V) was a symbol for French resistants during World War II. It was combined with de Gaulle's cross of Lorraine - a christian cross which was also a response to German barbarian Cross.

General de Gaulle used the V sign later in his political career, often in public with arms raised (as in his speech "Vive le Québec libre"). From 1958, the V of the French Fifth Republic ("Veme République") founded by de Gaulle, was also combined to the V sign, as it was shown on the 4th september 1958 by de Gaulle's famous speech on the Place de la République, in Paris (big flags in V around the Republican giant statue).

See resistance plaque with V and cross of Lorraine on this page

See de Gaulle with arms raised on this page

See V sign place de la République in 1958 on this page

Mythic origins
While I am unwilling to edit the article, the following statement really should be reworked.

The fact that the first definitive known reference to the "V-sign" is in the works of Rabelais, the French satirist of the 1500s, disproves the myth even further.

A lack of evidence in print prior to the 1500s does not disprove its use before then, it merely provides a date from which its use can be definitively proven, which is not the same thing. --Pappa 14:10, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Only the proof makes history, and all the rest's hypothesis...

Moreover the text 'disproving' that it had anything to do with English/Welsh archers only seems to argue that it made no sense to capture bowmen, which I'm not convinced is the same thing. Salo - sila 18:27, 24 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The origin story with the mutilated archers revolve around the fact that the archers wave the V-sign to show that they still had the fingers which would've purportedly been cut off had they been captured. Which means that if archers weren't taken prisoner their fingers wouldn't be cut off in any case and they'd no reason to wave them in the face in of the enemy. The fact that most strongly speaks against the finger-mutilation origin story is however the complete lack of contemporary sources. As the quoted snopes article points out, medieval battles were "covered" by heralds who in their chronicles make no mention of the practice (finger cutting or waving). The abscene of evidence combined with the implausibility of the finger-mutilation story leads to the conclusion currently in the article.--Sus scrofa 19:46, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Middle East
The V-sign is used extensively in the Middle East as a sign for victory. I've seen Palestinians alter it to three fingers (perhaps for "W"est Bank?).71.243.66.136 22:43, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Too long
This is a very long article for a very small topic! Patrick Neylan 03:19, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Obscure meanings
Too prominent coverage of obscure meanings. It is far and away "the peace sign". I am looking for a 60's picture. "Victory" was a prior meaning, and I see above that it is used in Palestine, but don't you see raised fists more often now, as in soccer, while running? When the sign is placed in the line-of-sight, it generally indicates two-way communication. When placed out of the line-of-sight, it indicates one-way communication. Martin | tk 03:29, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

For anyone who is English, Irish, Welsh, Scottish, Australian or from New Zealand, the obscene meaning of the gesture is not obscure (when the palm is turned inwards to the person making the gesture). Salo - sila 18:29, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

That's a different sign, not an obscure meaning. Martin | talk • contribs 19:10, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

moved here from article: paragraph is open to misinterpretation
Good job grouping subjects in misleading arrangements. Nixon left office after he ended the war, but this makes it seem like the protesters (that elected him)adopted the V sign to mock him.


 * posted in article by 76.80.46.240 (Talk) (Vietnam War, Victory and Peace) 19:41, 6 February 2007
 * moved here by Martin |  tk 22:34, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Reply: I changed the paragraph title from The text of the paragraph is pretty much the same. Martin | tk 22:46, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * "Vietnam War and the peace sign" to
 * "Vietnam War, Victory and Peace"

Beaver scout salute (removed)
The beaver scout web site says that Beaver_Scouts do not salute. Martin | talk • contribs 08:14, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

The ASL letter "U" or "H"
The discussion of other gestures that the v-sign is not is longer that the discussion of what it is. I notice that there is no discussion of the ASL letter U or H. I think that that they are correctly not mentioned. This could be used as a guide as to how "far afield" we should feel obliged to look for other gestures to be mentioned in the article. Martin | talk • contribs 09:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

cub scout salute
Is three fingers, according to the scout web site —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MartinGugino (talk • contribs) 09:15, 2 March 2007 (UTC).

emphasis in cunnilingus
Emphasis can be added by sticking out and waggling the tongue between the fingers.

Do we need this detail about an insult that isn't the v-sign. There is a link to the cunnilingus article for more detail, as needed. - Martin | talk • contribs 09:23, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

v-day
The connection with v-day is only mentioned in passing, but is it true?. The wiki article on v-day does not seem to confirm the association. -- Martin | talk • contribs 01:24, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

hmm this paragraph disappears if it is called "vandalism"
A change that someone makes, related to something in the article, is not vandalism. The fact that you think that the change is "silly" does not make the change vandalism. -- Martin | talk • contribs 01:28, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Mythic origins (here vs. 'Battle of Agincourt' article)
there is a paragraph in the "battle of agincourt" article which says that the V sign originating in this battle (or indeed from archers at all) is ABSOLUTELY a myth and that it was depicted on something else years before. Well i was just thinking.. does 1 single prior occurrence of a rather basic symbol really prove this, or is this just another "expert"'s point of view. Is there anything substancial to link that glove's V gesture to the modern meaning other than them sharing a resemblance. This seems as unfounded as conspiracy theories about satanism in the US govn't based some famous thing having the outline of the head of a famous etching of Bealzebub, should it really be phrased as absolute fact?

That article claims it is absolutely nothing to do with archers giving gestures (i.e. not to the french, in the hundred years war, or at that battle); this article says the V sign was probably from an earlier battle in the hundred years war. They seem to contradict eachother, the only thing they agree on is that the popular etymology is to some degree not entirely true (which you can assume about pretty much anything in such distant history).

(I wasn't really sure which talk page to put this in, so i put it here as the main article.)--KX36 21:54, 12 March 2007 (UTC)


 * AFAIK the origin of the V-sign as an insult dates back to the Battle of Crécy. If the French captured an English longbowman, they would chop off the two fingers on the right hand that were used to pull the bowstring. Thus the insult was originally used the say to the French "We've still got ours, and we're going to use them". Mjroots (talk) 08:30, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

V sign covers the Crecy origin theory. --Sus scrofa (talk) 15:16, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Palm in vs palm out
Somebody just changed the article so that the difference between "peace" and "victory" was whether the palm was in or out. This just isn't so, as the picture clearly show. The lead paragraph of the "v-sign" says it is made with palms out. -- Martin | talk • contribs 18:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Sideways V sign?
What about the sideways V sign? I've seen it occasionally. I think it's supposed to be a "streetwise" version of the sign, but I'm not positive. 68.40.65.164 22:21, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Australian thumb insult
As an Aussie travelling in rural areas of my country I have very occasionally come across people using a thumbs up gesture with an abrupt upward motion in the same "up yours" or "fuck off" sense. In my childhood (1970s Melbourne) I can only remember the V sign with palm facing the person making the gesture. More recently the middle finger has become very common due to American cultural influences. I would suggest that most Aussies are familiar with both the V and the middle finger gestures but that some few must also be familiar with the thumb gesture which I can only assume predates British cultural influences introducing the V. Can anybody else comment on this? &mdash; Hippietrail 18:00, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Why the hell is the "Fuck Off" in with the "Peace dude"
I'm somewhat confused as to why one is with the other. Surely the insult should have its own wikipage same as "the finger" as the two signs are patently different (and more importantly are completely unrelated other than in using the same fingers)?--Koncorde 02:29, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Mmm, you have a very good point. I think that the "fuck off" gesture with the palm inwards is separate from the "peace" gesture with the palm out. Separate enough to warrant its own article. Liam Markham 01:02, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Although it is worth noting that the "Fuck Off" meaning is older than the "Peace Dude" meaning, with the "Victory" meaning appearing to be the oldest. Remember that this encylcopedia needs to have a global perspective and not just an American (Peace Dude) or British (Fuck Off) one. pcrtalk 23:13, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The discussion isn't an age thing. It's the fact they are two entirely different hand gestures.  But in the case of the age - fuck off pre-dates all other uses, with Victory and Peace having pretty similar ages.  They should have entirely seperate articles in the same way Football is segmented into American Football, Soccer etc etc based on the fact that they are entirely different even if both played with a ball.--Koncorde 20:53, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Roman numeral five (V)
I deleted the note that the Romans used this gesture to mean 5. I don't know how it could be verified or learned that they meant 5 rather than 2 when they did this.

I note that the comment that some children use the v-sign to mean "time out" is questionable; that is, it needs at least some documentation. Martin | talk • contribs 16:56, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Famous Users of the Gesture (??)
There is no discussion of this paragraph. The links don't have material that supports the assertion, but I suppose a lot of famous people used the sign. I don't associate Michael Jackson with the peace sign, and the article on Michael Jackson doesn't have a photo, notable or otherwise, of him flashing the peace sign, or the victory sign.

I think this paragraph should be deleted. Martin | talk • contribs 17:14, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

i have put a link. happy now?

LOL. I'd be happier if you'd sign your posts. Martin | talk • contribs


 * It should be deleted. The list adds no value to the article and makes it look amateurish. Anybody truly famous for it (Churchill, Nixon, etc.) should be mentioned in the article copy itself. --24.147.86.187 (talk) 01:17, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree that this section serves little purpose and should stay gone.--Sus scrofa (talk) 17:26, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

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V as burro in Italy, Spain and Portugal
In Italy, Spain and Portugal, raising the two fingers behind someone's head can sign ears of a burro (a metaphor for friend). I'm Spanish and I have never heard of that. Can somebody give a reference? --Taraborn 19:09, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * If you do that in the UK you're being called an 'ass'.--Koncorde 00:22, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

V sign (palm facing in) possible british origin.
I've heard many times that the sign was made "popular" in Britain (although this was before Unification, so England) during one of the many wars with the French, where the English archers (long bowmen?)would raise their two fingers (middle and index) at the French showing them that they still had them, and also meaning "these are the fingers that will kill you". Apparently, this is because if any Archer of the English Army was captured they would have those two fingers cut off so the would not be able to fight.

Can anyone else back up this explanation? (or maybe find sources that attribute it) --Scuzzmonkey 11:46, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * This myth is already debunked in the article proper: V sign.--Sus scrofa 14:06, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Vicky
Can anyone confirm that there is somewhere in Scotland where the V-sign is known as "the Vicky"? It's a new one on me, whatever www.icons.co.uk says. Daibhid C 16:46, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I deleted the picture below
It refers to the subject of "victory", but is not a hand sign.

Move "Supposed Origins"?
One problem with the Supposed Origins section, especially its placement, is that while it has been a common explanation of the Insulting Gesture, I don't think it has been (commonly?)used to explain the Peace sign. "V" for Victory is self-explaining in English and many other European languages. Perhaps I am wrong and citations can be made for the myth as an explanation of "Peace," but otherwise, can this somehow be reworked as an explanation of the insult rather than a myth about general V-sign origins?

As far as the insult itself being used, I have seen it often on British comedies such as Monty Python's Flying Circus, Benny Hill and "Are You Being Served" often accompanied with a "raspberry." I'm surprised more Americans aren't familiar with the gesture from these television shows. At least they might be usable for reference  Cuvtixo (talk) 18:52, 14 March 2008 (UTC)