Talk:Vacuum arc remelting

Vague
In the list of materials two of the entries are: Landing gear steels & Turbine disk alloys. These could be any number of alloys. I propose that they be deleted and replaced with more specific alloys. Wizard191 (talk) 14:34, 21 January 2009 (UTC)


 * No, this is not vague. The absolute majority of landing gear steels are VAR melted. It is even more imperative with turbine disk alloys for jet enjines.Dima333a 21 January 2009 —Preceding undated comment was added at 15:30, 21 January 2009 (UTC).


 * So you are telling me that the material specified on the landing gear says "landing gear steel"? No, it specs out a specific composition and/or mechanical requirements for the material. Seeing how the section title is "materials" the list should be of materials not applications. The applications should be listed elsewhere. Wizard191 (talk) 17:14, 21 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, you see, Wikipedia is a popular generic source of information. I am not sure how technical it should be. Yes, there are specific grades of steel, that are used (and some of them were specifically developed) to make parts of landing gear. However, the chemistry, or name(grade) still does not make it a steel for landing gear. It is a chemistry accompanied by processing route (i.e. Vacuum arc remelting) that makes the specific steel grade to fit for landing gear application. In one sentece I would say that not all steels are processed by VAR, but all the landing gear steels (what ever they are) are processed by VAR. And this is the point, because landing gear is a critical application, that requires long fatigue life, the almost imperatively go though var process. If you still insist on giving specific examples, please add the following grades


 * Steels for landing gear proceesd by VAR: 4340, 300m, AF1410, AerMet 100


 * In case of turbine disks, as I say earlier, in case of jet enjines, it is all triple melt VIM-ESR-VAR process. Pretty much industry standard, what ever alloys they are using now, or planning to use in the nearest future. Again, the emphasis here is not on the specific chemistry, or alloy name, but on the application. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dima333a 66.64.189.202 (talk) 20:27, 22 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I understand what you are saying about how VAR steels are commonly used in landing gears and turbine blades. But I think the article can be technical and list the specific alloys. Look at some of the other metalworking articles, they are quite detailed. What if we listed those alloys that you named above in the materials section and then had a paragraph that stated that VAR steels are commonly used on landing gear and turbine blades? Wizard191 (talk) 01:57, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, we can try to be very specific ( my knowledge is not complete :-(, and, we go into details, it can be a very long page ;-)). I would appresiate if you could help with the wording. I can provide some information. I would say the following: 1. The steels used for landing gear manufacturing and other critical parts, such as 9310, 4340, 300m, AF1410, AerMet 100 are required to be vacuum arc remelted. 2. The conventional route for manufacturing Ti-alloys, such as Ti-6V-4Al, Ti-10V-2Al-3Fe, Ti-5Al-5V-5Mo-3Cr, as well as pure Ti includes double or triple vacuum arc remelting. 3.Ni-based super alloys for jet enjine disks and other critical parts, such as 600, 625, 718, and alike are vacuum arc remelted. 4.Zr and Nb and their alloys for nuclear indistry (structural parts for the nuclear fuel rods) are vacuum arc melted. 5.The manufacturing route for pure Pt, Rh, Ta and their alloys may include vacuum arc remelting  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dima333a (talk • contribs) 16:26, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * How about something like this:

Materials and applications
The VAR process is used on many different materials, however certain applications almost always use a material that has been VAR treated. A list of materials that may be VAR treated include:


 * Steel
 * 9310
 * 4340
 * 300M
 * AF1410
 * Aermet 100
 * Titanium
 * Inconel
 * Invar
 * Nitinol
 * Nickel superalloys
 * Zirconium
 * Niobium
 * Platinum
 * Tantalum
 * Rhodium

Note that pure titanium and most titanium alloys, such as Ti-6V-4Al, Ti-10V-2Al-3Fe and Ti-5Al-5V-5Mo-3Cr, are double or triple VAR processed. Nickel based super alloys, such as 600, 625 and 718, for aerospace applications are usually VAR processed. Zirconium and niobium alloys used in the nuclear industry are routinely VAR processed. Pure platinum, tantalum, and rhodium may be be VAR processed.

Wizard191 (talk) 19:04, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Looks good. However, there a few problems. Inconel falls into category of Nickel superalloys. To be presice, Inconel is one of the nickel super alloys.If we list individual steels, we could also list individual Ti alloys, and individual Nickel alloys. I am not that strongly familiar with the other alloys, but I am pretty sure there are several Zirconium based alloys. Do we have to list each steel (alloy) in a separate line? How about something like this:


 * Steel
 * 9310, 4340,4330+V, 300M, AF1410, Aermet 100, M50, BG42, Nitralloy, 16NCD13, 35NCD16, HY-100, HY-180, HY-TUF, D6AC, Maraging steels,UT-18, HP 9-4-30
 * Titanium
 * Ti-6V-4Al, Ti-10V-2Al-3Fe, Ti-5Al-5V-5Mo-3Cr
 * Invar
 * Nitinol
 * Nickel superalloys
 * Inconel group, Rene group, RR1000
 * Zirconium
 * Niobium
 * Platinum
 * Tantalum
 * Rhodium —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dima333a (talk • contribs) 22:16, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, I copied your updates into my updates and published it into the article. I bulletted each one of the types but made it into two columns. If you would rather changed it comma delineated list, I'm not married to the bullets. Any other modifications can just be done in the article mainspace. Wizard191 (talk) 03:43, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

VAR Melted alloy providers
I think the part about VAR alloy providers was usefull. Often companies provide their own insight on the process (VAR) and the advantages provided. It is always usefull to follow up if you are searching for an extra bit of information.

More over, there is just few companies that make VAR furnaces: ALD, Concarc, Retech and Inteco. The majority of the world uses ALD and Consarc. I guess the only possible exclusion is former USSR. I bet they were building their own furnaces to melt Ti for submarines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dima333a (talk • contribs) 17:05, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The problem is that its an advertisement for those companies to have their names listed here. We are here to convey information about the process, not who makes it. Now if there are specific webpages on one of these companies websites with additional information about the process that might be OK to link. Although, it would still probably be better to write it up in the article and use the web page as a source. Wizard191 (talk) 18:52, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Frankly, I do not have deep understanding how to separate advertisment and not advertisment. Having a page dedicated to a specific company is not advertisment, but mentioning company's name in an article is? Well... if this is the case, I guess let's leave it the way it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dima333a (talk • contribs) 21:53, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Articles for companies are only acceptable if they are notable based special criteria for organizations. Listing companies on other articles is usually frowned upon unless you are explaining them in a historically acceptable context. Wizard191 (talk) 04:01, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Melting and remelting
As far as can understand, these processes use the same instrumentation so I am insrting a picture described as "arc melting". Please someone should improve the order of these concepts in this cluster of articles if possible. Alexmar983 (talk) 15:09, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Chinese labels in drawing although the current entry is in english
The labels for the drawing in "process description" section are in Chinese although the entry is for English speakers/readers. I would recommend to replace with an alternative drawing - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/370139390/figure/fig1/AS:11431281210302877@1702035104866/Schematic-principle-of-the-VAR-process.jpg YoniBS (talk) 12:28, 14 July 2024 (UTC)