Talk:Valencia/Archive 1

Old discussions
Sadly, it seems some school kids from Valencia, US California, have hijacked this article.

---

I'd like to know who wrote the "economics" part of this entry. It's absolutely political! Urbanism and the destruction of Cabanyal as the main economic points of the city of Valencia in a reknown encyclopedia? Someone should prevent this from happening.

Valencia was not the last capital of the Spanish Republic. After the fall of Valencia the government moved to Barcelona and in the very last days of the war, to Figueres -- apoivre 09:40, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Why are there catalan and valencian versions of the name of the city, being catalan and valencian the same language ? There might be differences in pronunciation btw the language as spoken in Valencia and other places, just as for any other language, but I don't think that these differences are usually reported in wikipedia anyway. 82.41.77.194 18:56, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * OK, OK. Look, I added the Valencian pronunciation because, well, this is Valencia and the way Catalans say València is radically different from the way they say it around here, and so to put only the standard Central Catalan pronunciation would seem like I was imposing an alien way of speaking.  I see your point though.  It is true that it made it look as though they were two different languages (when everybody knows they're not).


 * I'm going to find a compromise: I'll add the info about the local pronunciation, but down in the article, leaving only Catalan at the top. Chameleon 22:49, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The language quarrel
The language quarrel is the most absurd issue I have ever seen!! Why is it internationally accepted that Serb and Croat are different languages while Valencian and Catalan cannot be accepted as separate languages? The same holds true for Czech and Slovak. They are SEPARATE official languages and are recognized as such by the European Union. This is just another claim by the Catalan nationalists without any historical justification. It gives them the right to claim the "Catalanism" of Valencian writers just because their language is similar to the Catalan!! Can you imagine the Australian government claiming Shakespeare was Australian just because he wrote in English?? There is no person on earth that would ever support such a sensless claim but on the other hand Catalans seem to have a birthright to make unsubstantiated claims.

There is an ongoing political battle between defendors of valencian and catalan names for the language. This is often a cause for flame wars. It is important to maintain an strict neutrality to avoid constant changes. See entries for valencian language and catalan language. --195.212.29.163 18:21, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I know. Spazzing out on language issues is a favourite Spanish hobby.  I'll see if I can keep things calm, accurate and neutral.  Chameleon 22:49, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Nice article. Just one detail needs changing: Valencia wasn't made the Republican capital after the fall of Madrid during the Spanish Civil War. The move came in response to Franco's ultimately unsuccessful attack on Madrid in the autumn of 1936 (many thought he would take the capital, hence the move down to the coast). In fact the city didn't fall until the very end of the war in the spring of 1939.

Transportation
It seems to me that once the Valencia article gets edited, it will be a fairly god article. However, the article is not complete until it talks about the city's transportation, such as the airport, subway system, etc.

This entry hijacked by pro-Catalan users
It's a pitty that out of all Wikipedia, this entry has been hijacked by pro-Catalan users who use it to convey their anti-Valencian message.

Everything remotely positive about Valencia is immediately removed only to be replaced by anti-Valencian hatred, as if it were South Africa during the apartheid years. Imagine a Wikipedia in 1960 with the "USA" entry going like this: "USA is located in North America and blacks have no rights in that country".

Nevertheless, such short-sighted individuals will not alter the prosperous path in which the Region is right now. Millions of visitors keep coming back, increasing by the thousands each year. Has anyone ever wondered why Britons move to Alicante or Denia for their retirement and not to Tarragona or Girona?

This kind of reaction is entirely understandable though. Who wouldn't envy their neighbors if they were increasingly successful and a potential threat, both economically and politically? The Alicante province will be the fourth most populous of the country in 2 to 3 years, surpassing Seville. By the turn of the decade, the Valencia Region will have 2 out of the 4 most populous provinces in Spain, while the migration balance between Valencia and Catalonia is clearly in favor of the former.

Valencia's harbor surpassed Barcelona's a few years ago in total traffic and is now the largest in the Mediterranean basin. Valencia's airport increased its traffic 7 times more than Barcelona's during the first half of 2005.

Cheers from Valencia

Come and visit Europe's new trendy city (as declared by the BBC twice in 2005)


 * I don't understand what you are talking about. If you're disturbed as I've removed text of yours, it's because at the source text there aren't any explicit permission to copy, distribute, and modify (with commercial use or not). I've found that you were copying text exactly from http://www.ivex.es, with no copyright statement nor terms of use. It is against wikipedia ruling on GFDL. You must known better Wikipedia before to encourage hating between brotherhood countries of Catalonia and Valencia. It isn't possitive to modify only the text on several articles in the way to make nonexistent conflicts between both people. Last thing more to add, altough I'm Catalan-speaker, it isn't meaning me as Catalonian, but I'm Valencian. --Joanot Martorell &#9993; 21:44, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

No speedy delete
The city and the land are two separate topics. This is an invalid speedy and either a mistake or vandalism. Night Gyr 00:28, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Agree. I'm going to delete both tags. Am I breaking a rule here...? (Looks nervously over shoulder.) Weregerbil 01:51, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Photos: Too much architecture
Some cityscapes and panoramas would be a big asset to this article. Too many architectural shots. -Rolypolyman 02:07, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Homophobia in article
Why is it not permitted to add information about gay valencia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.229.33.175 (talk • contribs)


 * You are adding spam and mentioning how to get drugs. This does not belong to wikipedia, thank you very much. E    Asterion  u talking to me? 10:47, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Numismatics?
Why is this article part of WikiProject Numismatics? Was that a joke? Ruakh 13:43, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I've no idea but I've seen it in other "unrelated" pages too. Maybe the people behind that project could clarify this? E    Asterion  u talking to me? 16:28, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The article's listed in Category:Ancient mints. If that's the reason, it seems tenuous at best. Bolivian Unicyclist 18:37, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Untitled

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

no move. --  tariq abjotu  01:07, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Requested move
Rationale: Rationale: Currently Valencia is pointing at Valencia (disambiguation), considering that the Spanish town is the most known geographical entity, I believe the wikipedia entry "Valencia" should reflect this. E   Asterion  u talking to me? 13:32, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Survey
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~
 * Support, nominator. -- E   Asterion  u talking to me? 13:32, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Support -- other divisions in Spain are named for the city; other similarly named places elsewhere are clearly minor compared to this one Neutral I didn't realize the city in Venezuela is pretty big. Definitely move from Valencia (city) but not to plain "Valencia" --Polaron | Talk 06:31, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Support --Hús ö nd 14:11, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Support No doubt here. Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 21:12, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Support I don’t see San Francisco pointing to a disambiguation page (not that it should be).
 * Oppose There are too many other Valencias. (city) is a satisfactory disambiguatory parenthetic remark, though (city in Spain) would most clearly and appropriately disambiguate it from all the other Valencias at Valencia (disambiguation).  --Serge 17:44, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Neutral. Valencia, Spain is not helpful -- several of the other dab entries are cities too, of course. In addition, the Venezuelan Valencia is the largest of the group in terms of inhabitants -- it's a bit harsh to say all the others "are clearly minor" in comparison to the Spanish city.  Bolivian Unicyclist 18:55, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * You have a point and this could be understood as a case of systemic bias. Nevertheless, I assume that the Venezuelan Valencia was named after the Spanish one? My main problem was about the name Valencia (city) as it gave the impresion that there was a single city called Valencia instead many. If too many people oppose, I believe that Valencia (city) should be moved to Valencia, Spain, though I think that the city called Valencia in Spain, is more known throughout the world and the wikipedia Valencia article should reflect this. Thanks for pointing this out and regards, E    Asterion  u talking to me? 22:47, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * You're right on both counts: it is systemic bias here on Wikipedia, and it is a reflection of the fact that Valencia, Spain, is better known throughout the world because of systemic bias in the world. A wikipedian in search of an interesting intellectual exercise could do well to take a look at Barcelona (and Barcelona (disambiguation)), Valencia, Córdoba, Guadalajara, Mérida and Cuenca (and the related dabs), see in which cases "primary topic disambiguation" is awarded and in which it isn't, and then infer what criteria are used. It seems that if the European city is bigger, it gets the city slot; if the city in America is bigger, the city slot is a dab page. Makes you wonder what would happen if León, Guanajuato, were in the United States, or Boston, Massachusetts, were in Panama. Regards, Bolivian Unicyclist 23:31, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose although population shouldn't necessarily control, here there are several large Valencia's and the one in Spain can be at València, its Catalan name. Carlossuarez46 00:40, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment: We tend to respect English language most common denomination for a place: E.g. This is why Sevilla, in Andalusia, is referred as Seville in en.wikipedia. Regards, E    Asterion  u talking to me?
 * What re-directs to it is another issue, so Sevilla also redirects to Seville, etc. But having Valencia, Spain seems to be in contradistinction to Valencia (orange) not to Valencia (another city) etc. I like Vegaswikian's approach. Carlossuarez46 01:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose Valencia is used internationally, so it would be best to leave it alone. However, I think Valencia (disambiguation) is rather redundant if Valencia redirects to it.  But I guess that's another issue. --Chris S. 05:30, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * In that case, the Valencia page should be move-protected as a new user had used it for the article that I then moved to Valencia (band), with a complete disregard for any other meaning. I had to clear out the mess just before redirecting it to Valencia (disambiguation), while seeking consensus for its final use. Regards, E    Asterion  u talking to me? 07:54, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose given that to many Valencia is the orange. Also based on the above discussion, it appears that Valencia (disambiguation) should be returned to Valencia. Valencia, Spain should be renamed to Valencia, Spain. Vegaswikian 21:00, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I endorse Vegaswikian's proposal. Carlossuarez46 01:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Support: most people who will be looking up Valencia in an encyclopedia will be looking for the Spanish city. And, for the rest, disambiguation will be one step away. - Jmabel | Talk 00:18, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment I'm embarrassed to say that I didn't know there was a city in Spain called Valencia (though it wouldn't be surprising). Usually I think of the autonomous community of Valencia. --Chris S. 01:24, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I think that is a regional bias. Have you looked at the dab page and seen how many items are listed there?  To say that one is clearly the one that everyone would be looking for is a leap of faith.  Vegaswikian 01:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know how I forgot to mention Six Flags Magic Mountain located in Valencia, California. This further makes the case that the city in Spain is not the predominant use of this name.  Maybe because there are so many users that need equal billing. Vegaswikian 07:47, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Comments
Three comments: Thanks, Bolivian Unicyclist 19:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Fair disclosure: I invite the participants in this discussion to review the recent changes I made to the Valencia (disambiguation) page.
 * 2) Also: if this requested move fails, would Valencia, Spain get moved to Valencia, Spain? Doesn't Spain have a province-based disambiguation scheme (like, for example, Italy)?
 * 3) Kind of a related issue: I'd appreciate a disinterested party or two taking a glance at Guadalajara (disambiguation) and its talk. An anon and I think we're both right, and obviously we can't be.
 * Yes, it has. The problem is that in that case, the name would be Valencia, Valencia, which sounds a bit odd... In any case, it would possibly require a new nomination before any possible move can take place. E    Asterion  u talking to me? 20:41, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * By the way, the changes to the Valencia (disambiguation) page looks fine to me. E    Asterion  u talking to me? 20:45, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks. And yes, Valencia, Valencia, seems strange to me, too (although I'll readily admit that could just be my lack of familiarity). Does the format used domestically use parentheses -- ie, "Valencia (Valencia)" -- or is Valencia just so big and well-known that the province is never indicated? Bolivian Unicyclist 22:02, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * In Spain, Valencia generally refers to the city; Provincia de Valencia to the province and Comunidad Autónoma de Valencia or País Valenciano to the region. Indeed a tricky one. E    Asterion  u talking to me? 22:10, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It has been moved to Valencia (city in Spain) at the end. Regards, E    Asterion  u talking to me? 07:37, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Help disambiguating
Hello everyone, there is a current need to help disambiguate the term Valencia. At Disambiguation pages with links, Valencia is one of the disambiguation pages with the most links, and ideally there should be no links to disambiguation pages. So if possible, please take a look at the links, and disambiguate to a more correct location. Thanks, -- Jeff3000 03:46, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Italics
Should we use italic when using words in Spanish? That is the general convention, but since it is not done here, I hesitate to start. Your thoughts? Paul, in Saudi 13:17, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * In general, yes. But there are exception: take a look at Manual of Style (text formatting) :-) Evv 17:28, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

move to Valencia, Spain.-- Hús  ö  nd  21:51, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Requested move 2
Valencia (city in Spain) → Valencia (Spain) — No need for the "city in". Hús ö  nd  02:09, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Survey
Add  * Support   or   * Oppose   on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~.

Comment I think there's a consensus here. However, Valencia, Spain might be more adequate than Valencia (Spain), as per Vegaswikian and Valenciano. If there are no objections I shall move the article to Valencia, Spain then.-- Hús  ö  nd  18:05, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Support as nom.-- Hús  ö  nd  02:11, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Support as per nom. -- Asterion talk 16:20, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Support to Valencia, Spain. Seems to be the most common dab form at Naming conventions (city names). Vegaswikian 19:08, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Support Valencia, Spain. Valenciano 21:45, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Support obvious. ~ trialsanderrors 04:05, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Support. Bolivian Unicyclist 12:30, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Support as nominated. --Polaron | Talk 14:01, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. - Evv 17:28, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No objection here. - Evv 05:55, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Discussion
Add any additional comments:
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Problem with the spam detector: Add this please
please, i cant change it because the spam detector blocks the page. This two lines goes at the beginning, just before the "native name"

image = |

caption = Sciences museum in Ciudad de las artes y las ciencias| — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.53.1.243 (talk) 04:03, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Citations?
This needs some citation. There's NONE whatsoever, and if this article is going to have any value, it needs to cite its soruces.

A side note: The prose for history seems a little messy and out of order. It would be nice if someone could clean that up a little. Jeri-kun 18:52, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Proportions of the Valencian autonomous community Flag

 * After a quite extensive search throughtout the whole internet, I haven't been able to find any single source to state that this flag has 1:2 proportions. No laws, no estatutes, no decrees... nothing. I have to say, that I ALMOST couldn't find anything to state it is 2:3 either... Only the source I gave some weeks ago, and that "some users" didn't believe... BUT, then, I thought about where to adress to ask for a confirmed source. And what better choice than the Spanish Vexillological Society (the SEV, see []) which, BTW is a member of the Fédération internationale des associations vexillologiques. So, I believe this source to be the most trustworthy of all.


 * This said, I went to SEV site, [], and found a "banderas" (flags) link on the left. Then, I clicked on the "Comunidades Autónomas" link, see [], and then on the "Comunidad Valenciana/Comunitat Valenciana" one see [], to get here: [], where it clearly states a proportions of 2:3.


 * But, maybe this society simply had these same proportions for all spanish autonomous communities flags... WRONG! let's see some examples:


 * 1) CASTILLA Y LEÓN: proportions 76:99. See, []
 * 2) CASTILLA-LA MANCHA: proportions 1:2. See, []
 * 3) COMUNIDAD DE MADRID: proportions 7:11. See, []
 * 4) PAÍS VASCO/EUSKADI: proportions 14:25. See, []
 * Being ALL OTHERS of proportions 2:3.


 * I sincerely hope this FINALLY ends the fight about the proportions. I gave the most trustworthy source available, which NO ONE can doubt. Let's then, please, change the actual flag in wikipedia, which is wrong.--Maurice27 13:58, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Flag of Valencia Autonomo community.png
Image:Flag of Valencia Autonomo community.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 23:24, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Travelogue version

 * "Today, with its fascinating past, Valencia is a forward-looking city that both celebrates the bygone times and boldly leads Spain into the awaiting future." I know that if I'd written anything like this, it would have swiftly been flagged in one form or another. This article reads like a brochure. --Wetman (talk) 20:13, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

A huge rewrite occurred which introduced a travelogue version of the article replacing valid content. I've reverted back to a version that reads like an encyclopedia article -- Whpq (talk) 20:42, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Population
I don't know who put the numbers for the city proper and met area population, but they were OBVIOUSLY wrong. If you look at the Spanish version, it gives the real numbers, based on official 2007 statistics. I have put these numbers with a reference to INE .David (talk) 15:58, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

...and now the port!
The level of POV in this article is incredible... I don't understand how all this happened. Valencia is Spain's first port? and what do we do about Port of Algeciras and Barcelona? First the population, then the port... what else? may be Valencia is Spain's capital and we didn't notice... David (talk) 14:01, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Actualmente es el puerto español con mayor volumen de mercancias. Por favor, comprueba los datos antes de editar la wiki: http://www.valenciaport.com/cultures/es-ES/

Growth in container traffic at Valenciaport compared to other western Mediterranean ports

Valenciaport is the leading commercial port on the western Mediterranean coast in terms of containerised cargo volumes. Throughout 2003, over 34.96 million tons went through the ports of Valencia, Sagunto and Gandía, 6.53% more than in 2002. These figures consolidate Valenciaport’s leadership.

Valenciaport ranks first in Spain in terms of container traffic apart from being among the top ten European ports and top fifty world ports in container handling.

Container carrier docking

The Port of Valencia also handles regular passenger traffic to and from the Balearic Islands and Italy and also has an emerging cruise ship market which, in 2003, recorded 69 port calls and 58,220 passengers.

In order to support this level of activity, Valenciaport has modern facilities equipped with competitive services covering a total area of approximately 600 ha. with over 12,000 linear metres of quayside, of which 4,000 metres have water depths of 14 metres or more.

All of this means that Valenciaport plays a highly relevant role in the economic development of its area of influence. It is estimated that Valenciaport provides direct or indirect employment for over 15,000 people and generates business worth over 1.1 billion euros.

--84.126.8.106 (talk) 14:52, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Name section is wrong
The 'name' section in the article is completely wrong. It is said that the city was named 'after Emperor Valens, who ordered the foundation of a new colony in Hispania', but Valens lived in the 4th century AD, more than 5 centuries later after the actual foundation of Valentia. This is almost correctly explained in the 'history' section where it appears the real history, that Valencia was founded in 137 BC, during the roman republic. It was really in 138 BC, as it appears correctly here: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonia_Valentia_Edetanorum The name 'Valentia' actually comes from the roman practice of recognizing the 'courage' (this is what 'valentia' means in latin) of former roman soldiers after a war. The roman historian Tito Livio explains that the foundation of Valentia in the 2nd century BC was due to the settling of the roman soldiers who fought against iberian local rebel Viriatus. This is found in many places, for exemple here: http://www.levante-emv.com/secciones/noticia.jsp?pRef=3688_12_356702__Comarcas-fundadores-Valencia-siglo-eran-soldados-lucharon-contra-Viriato

So the real name comes from a signal of recognition to former roman soldiers as a prize for their loyalty and courage (valentia), not for emperor Valens, who lived 5 hundred years later!

-paquito xocolatero — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.201.96.130 (talk) 08:21, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

PD: about the v/b pronounciation: the 'v' is correctly pronounced (different from 'b') all over the valencian dialect/language area, excepting in the 'apitxat' dialect spoken in the Valencia city area, where it is pronounced [baˈlensia]. It is pronounced [vaˈɫɛnsia] in most of the Valencian Community, and this is also the standard of the official valencian dialect of catalan as set in the 'rules of Castelló' adopted by the Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua. The use of 'v' is also a recommendation from Corominas and the IEC. So the article is fully correct now about this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.201.96.130 (talk) 08:33, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment on edit
The latest edit is mine, Dsnow75 &#91;&#91;User Talk: Dsnow75&#124;Talk&#93;&#93; (talk) 00:53, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Anti-Valencian sentiment
To the mindless pro-Catalan hijacking this entry:

1. I don't understand your insisting on the LRAU and the Cabanyal. As far as the LRAU is concerned, as of today, there has been no official sentence from the European Union. I ignore what happens in your country, but in the European Union, one is innocent until proven guilty, not the other way round. As for the Cabanyal, the Supreme justice has approved the local government actions and deemed them LEGAL.

2. Your comment about north africans is a clear example of your radical, racist mentality.

3. No matter what you write, Valencia is on an ascending path while Barcelona is steadily declining, in a way similar to the Basque Country, where radicals and extremists alienated businessmen and foreing investors. If you bother reading the European Union's comment on the proposed Catalan statutes, their criticism is not focused on whether they can call themselves a nation, but rather on the Soviet-style, communistlike economy where every sector (telecom, industry, media, airports, ports, motorways) is controled by a powerful and totalitarian Generalitat. In fact, the most disturbing aspect of the proposed Catalan statutes is the virtual elimination of the market economy and private enterprise.

4. Come to Altea and watch the thousands of British retirees that come and permanently live in the Valencia Community.

Someone nickNamed JOANOT MARTORELL shouldn't be allowed to speak/ write/ argue about Valencia, even if he is a Valencian Citizen. He is clearly a suporter of a minoritarial belief of valencia being an independant country (same as the comunity of cataluña... anyone can search JOANOT MARTORELL and know that he is the author of TIRANT LO BLANC a novel comonly used by independentist fanatists. nothing more to say... i've read already too much about this person nicked named JOANOT and it is quite infuriating as his points of view are absolutely inexact or manipulated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.3.60.140 (talk) 14:11, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

-Joanot Martorell is simply the author of Tirant lo Blanc, a Spanish classic written in catalan language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.15.243.94 (talk) 20:44, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Valencia skyline photo: Space Needle in the background??
I was looking at the "Valencia skyline" picture next to the "Culture" section and I noticed there is an observation tower in the background, between the buildings. As far as I know, there is no such tower in Valencia and it really looks like someone photoshoped a picture of the Seattle Space Needle on the photo. I believe this is totally inaccurate and the picture should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.71.33.37 (talk) 14:52, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

About the oranges...
I looked this up on a whim, but it turns out evidence is lacking that Valencia orange refers to Valencia, Spain. The article on the Valencia orange makes no mention of Valencia, Spain, and an article by the University of Florida also calls into question the Spanish origin:
 * "The origin of 'Valencia' is uncertain and there is no evidence to support the common assumption of Spanish origin. Many believe it originated in Portugal because it is indistinguishable from a cultivar grown there. Trees were originally imported to this country about 1870 by S. B. Parsons, a Long Island nurseryman. The cultivar first reached Florida in 1877 when E. H. Hart of Federal Point purchased trees from Parsons. Initially named 'Hart's Tardier', 'Valencia' later acquired its current name because of similarities between it and a cultivar growing in Valencia, Spain." http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/BODY_CH066

Another page talks of the origins:
 * "The Southern California citrus industry began after 1870 with Anaheim physician Dr. William Hardin, who is credited with planting the first grove of oranges from Tahitian seeds. The original Spanish orange, introduced to Southern California in the early eighteenth century, was considered too tart and dry. Experimenting with grafts between the Tahitian and Spanish varieties Richard Gilmore of Placentia produced the Valencia orange in 1872." http://ljames1.home.netcom.com/orange_history.html

An even more interesting hypothesis:
 * "The Valencia Orange probably originated in China, and spread to many parts of the globe under different names." http://www.sandimasnews.com/history/8.html

I know this isn't going to win me any friends, but I thought it was interesting because it points out that the obvious isn't true. Malandi 18:53, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Late response: your opening sentence suggests that Valencia orange might not refer to Valencia, Spain, but your quotes don't support that. The first quote clearly expresses the belief that it does refer to it; the second quote seems to imply that it does; and the third quote doesn't say anything one way or the other. I'd ask that, where possible, you distinguish between information about terms and information about what the terms designate, as matters can become very convoluted very quickly when this distinction is not observed. (This is especially true in an encyclopedia, since articles are typically about what terms designate but sometimes must discuss the terms themselves.) Ruakh 02:24, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The orange itself (every orange) comes from China; this was a wild tree from there. The valencia variety is probably the result of a long history of selection made in different places and times, where it is impossible to tell at which point it starts to be that particular variety. But it is clear that the name of that variety of orange is originated from the city/region of Valencia, Spain. It's hard to believe that the name of an orange variety which is identical to the main orange producer region in Europe, is just a coincidence.
 * When someone talks about "french bread' he/she is not arguing that bread is from french origin, that french people invented it, nor that that kind of bread is not similar to a lot of bread varieties across Europe. But definitely "french bread" name refers to France. So does Valencia oranges: "valencia oranges" refer to Valencia, Spain. That does not mean at all that this variety has been originated only in that town from scratch.Chocheneguer (talk) 12:38, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Pronunciation in Castilian
Seeing that the [v] has returned in the IPA transcription of the pronunciation of the name of the city in Castilian, I am curious to ask: Do Valencians really distinguish between the /b/ and the /v/ when speaking Castilian? Let’s settle this matter once and for all.
 * Altough the "Diccionario de la Real Academia de la Lengua Espa/ola" about the "v" consonant, is clear:
 * v.
 * 1. f. Vigésima quinta letra del abecedario espa/ol, y vigésima segunda del orden latino internacional, que representa un 'fonema consonántico labial y sonoro, el mismo que la b en todos los países de lengua espa/ola. Su nombre es uve, ve, ve baja o ve corta.''


 * In Catalan, it's more or less the same matter, there are speakers that don't distinguish v/b (eastern and north-eastern Catalonia), and another speakers that do it (western Catalonia, whole Land of Valencia, and Balearic Islands). I've found the following reference:H
 * «La oposición y distinción entre el fonema /b/ […] y el fonema /v/ […], que existen en varias lenguas como el francés, el italiano y muchas más, se ha perdido en parte del territorio catalán. […] Sería algo difícil, pero ciertamente positivo que la lengua culta (p.e. en la lectura cuidada, en los discursos, en el canto, etc.) intentase el reestablecimiento en toda nuestra área lingüística de la pronunciación labio-dental de la v, viviendo aun en la Comunidad Valenciana, Mallorca, al Camp de Tarragona, etc. […]»


 * Reference: «El català en fitxes» 3ª Edició, de Josep Ruaix i Vinyet. (C) J. Ruaix, 1977. vól 1 pág.10 (ficha 10). Info found here. It seems that this form of pronounciation is a linguistic inheritance of the ancient Iberian people, wich most area was from Almeria to Provence, across the mediterranean coast (don't mistake with the Celtiberians).


 * In Spanish, almost in the most common area with the Catalan-speaking area, the v/b are distinguishable. I think that in Venezuela there is distinguishable also. --Joanot Martorell &#9993; 10:17, 20 July 2006 (UTC) PD: Or by Argentinians.


 * But the article marks "Castilian Spanish: Valencia /va'lenθia/;". Maybe Valencian Spanish has /v/, but Castilian does not.
 * So then I don’t understand. Why does the article still insist on the [v]-pronunciation, and at least twice, at that?
 * I came across an article in the Spanish Wikipedia on a Spanish dialect spoken in some parts of the Valencian Community (but not in the city of Valencia itself) which may also be of interest. It states that /v/ is indeed pronounced as [v] in those areas.


 * It doesn´t matter at all wether it i /v/ or /b/, the pronunciation is the same in the Spanish language, as well as in Catalan. I can tell you because, in fact, I am Spanish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)


 * Some valencian-speakers native people do pronounce V in 'Valencia', because in valencian catalan it is pronounced like this. But this is clearly an influence of other language, not regular spanish (castellano). Probably native valencian-speakers would use other words in valencian when they speak in spanish; that does not mean that is the spanish pronounciation. The fact is that in spanish V sound does not exist, so the pronounciation in spanish is like 'Balencia'. Most spanish native speakers in Valencia and almost every other spanish speaker would say so, with /b/.Chocheneguer (talk) 12:49, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

View from an outsider
As a non-Spaniard who has spent some time in Valencia and considers it one of my favorite cities, I am saddened by the poor quality of this article. The economy section is pure politics. There is no mention of the university, the vibrant nightlife, the art museums, the covered market, El Carmen, the Turia gardens etc. And Valencia FC is more than a "reasonably successful team"! On the plus side, the pictures in the gallery are lovely. But the text needs to be neutralised and expanded. There are some great city pages on Wikipedia, but this is not one of them! Better to light a candle than to curse the darkness, so I added some information about climate (in leading paragraph), architecture, museums, parks and gardens, and nightlife (in culture). I still think there needs to be a lot of work.

Agreed!
As yet another visitor to Valencia, and someone who fell in love with this city, I must adhere to the above mentioned comments. This article really needs to be cleaned up and expanded to be worthy of such a wonderful city. It's far too short and unprecise in my opinion. Although I can understand that the Catalonian vs. Valencian politics makes this article very 'hot', that is no justification of the general quality of the article, is it? the--dud 00:52, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. People in both the Catalonia and Valencia regions of Spain get very exercised about the language debate and many Valencian speakers would never accept that their language is a variety of Catalan. What I find completely ludicrous in this article about the city of Valencia is that so many people are removing each other's changes, arguing about subtleties of language and yet in the entire page as of today not ONE person has come up with some verifiable source explaining the emblem of the bat in the city's coat of arms. Wake up you people; start expanding the useful information in this article and leave aside the petty and childish squabbles. Ant501UK (talk) 22:44, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Wikiproject Cities changed
I have changed the importance of the city in the template of Wikiproject Cities from Mid. to High, because Valencia has more than 700.000 inhabitants and it is also a provincial capital. --Byblios (talk) 10:44, 3 March 2012 (UTC)Byblios

Article renamed
The article was recently moved to Valencia because of this discussion. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:02, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Etymology
I'm not an expert, but it seems unlikely that the modern pronunciation derived from the Arabic, 'Balansiyya'. Valentia would have changed to Valencia/València through totally regular sound-changes, not needing to go through 'Balansiyya' at all, which require odd changes. If someone knows better, feel free to revert! Wee Jimmy (talk) 13:58, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Edit war on the Climate table
Here are the official climate normals for the period of 1981-2010 http://www.aemet.es/es/serviciosclimaticos/datosclimatologicos/valoresclimatologicos?l=8416&k=val The User HardstyleGB is changing them to 2001-2010 normals without source. 10 years is also a too short time period imo. --Guajara3718 (talk) 20:16, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Timeline of Valencia
What is missing from the city timeline? Please add relevant content. Thank you. -- M2545 (talk) 12:33, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Ecclesiastical history
Is it just me or is this section way, way too long?

--Bcnviajero 19:54, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the whole of the History section is too long. It ought to be a separate page, and a short summary put in its place. Valetude (talk) 11:36, 15 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Note that the suggestion you are responding to,, is over ten years old, and that the article is radically different from what it was then.
 * I wrote the History section, and agree that it should be moved to its own article. I will write a brief summary and move it when I get a chance. Carlstak (talk) 12:18, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Accurate climate map of Spain made by AEMET
and. Good news! I've just found the official climatic maps of Iberia and Macaronesia created by AEMET (with cooperation from IPMA). Here they are:Iberian Climate Atlas/Macaronesian Climate Atlas

So yes, Valencia falls between the categorization of Csa and BSk. Kind regards! --TechnicianGB (talk) 00:16, 12 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Actually, it's classified within the same BSk climate than the country of Camp del Túria. Unfortunately, these maps has gross inaccuracies like the classification of all of Galicia as Csb (whose largest part would be Cfsb, an intermediate type between Csb and Cfb), when the Ourense area is Csa. Talskubilos (talk) 18:58, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Climate
Going by the stats in the climate box, it's actually a semi-arid climate (Koppen BSh). The precipitation threshold is increased because it gets more than 30% of its precipitation during the high-sun months (April-September); giving (18.3*20)+140= 506mm required for it to be a Csa Mediterranean climate. Walshie79 (talk) 22:55, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
 * More so if we get the summer half-year (May-October) as defined by temperature instead of sun altitude (April-September). But the year average temperature of 18.4 ºC is surely biased by urban heat island, so it's more prudent to define Valencia climate as borderline BSh/BSk. Talskubilos (talk) 15:03, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Talskubilos, please read Wikipedia:No original research. Thank you. Subtropical -man  (talk / en-2 ) 18:38, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Subtropical-man, please read Identifying reliable sources. You're welcome! Talskubilos (talk) 22:32, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Talskubilos, it's funny that you mentione reliable sources and you delete a reliable Köppen-Geiger source to put a source from an untrustworthy website like "climate-data.org". Nevermind, I've also added the official climate guide maded by AEMET. Where it states clearly that Valencia has an hot-summer mediterranean climate. This is like removing the official data from NOAA to put the data from climate-data.org in an american city. "climate-data" equals to use a blogspot as a source. Anyways, besides it's a Csa climate there is another thing; you can't prove that the weather station is influenced by the UHI so you can't state "it's BSK because it's influenced by the Urban Heat Island because I've said so". And additionally, you've modified the climate paragraph of this article without any kind of consesus or backing from other users and then you revert other's changes stating that "there is no consensus" while you have done exactly the same. The climate of Valencia is clearly Csa according to the official sources, and hundreds of edits were made in this page with no one changing it until on 3th November, when you did your personal edit without sources. And then you added an unuseful source like climate-data.org... No buddy, this is Wikipedia, not a personal blogspot. I've seen your editions and you look a very good Wikipedia editor. I don't know what happened in this article, as in all of the others you were doing useful editions. Thanks --TechnicianGB (talk) 16:09, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I understand your point, but as discussed in Talk:Köppen climate classification, climate classifications should be an exception to Identifying reliable sources, as they're made upon calculation from given formulas. Talskubilos (talk) 17:14, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

please stop doing bad edits on this article. You are removing a trustworthy and authoritative source of Köppen climate classification to put an untrustworthy and not authoritative source like "climate-data.org" which is a fan based climate website? Are you trolling? If you want, I can add an official AEMET report where it states that the climate of the city of Valencia is Csa. AEMET is the official meteorology agency of the Spanish government. What kind of trustworhy has climate-data? 0. It doesn't even show from where they get their data. It's totally untrue. And something more, influenced by the UHI? If the official climate chart shows you 18.4 ºC you can't say "it's influenced by the UHI" and downgrade it to BSk, which is for climates with mean averages under 18 ºC, something which doesn't happen on Valencia. And the climate station of Valencia, anyways, is located outside from the city center and outside from the Urban heat area. --TechnicianGB (talk) 15:47, 7 November 2016 (UTC) Here you have 3 trustworthy and authoritative sources which say that the climate of the city of Valencia is mediterranean Csa. 2 of those sources are the most authoritative and useful which you can find on the whole internet for the climate of the city of Valencia. I've seeked information about "climate-data.org" and they don't even mentione the source of their averages/climate info and even they don't mentione where are their climate stations, obviously because it's all invented. You can't superimpose a fan based website as a source above the climate guide of Köppen climate classification and the official atlas of the climate of Spain maded by AEMET. Thanks --TechnicianGB (talk) 16:03, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I think you aren'r unacquainted with Köppen climate classification and its calculation from weather boxes. There're maps of Spain Köppen climates made by other editors which put Valencia within the semi-arid climate. In fact, according to User:Berkserker, most of the Csa zone in central and eastern Spain should actually be BSk. Talskubilos (talk) 17:49, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * A single map with low trustworthy is not useful in this case as we have various sources which specifically talk about that place and they're a lot more trustworthy. Again, it's not any bordering climate. And if it would be a bordering climate it would be a BSh climate because the mean average surpasses 18 ºC, it has nothing to do with BSk just because a climate map of Spain says that. Don't make non-consensual edits which are also untrue as the most reliable sources say it's a Csa climate and nothing related to "bordering" semi-arid climates. Los Angeles is way drier for example, and it still has a Csa climate. Regards --TechnicianGB (talk) 18:24, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Why do you still persist in categorize it as a BSk climate if the 1981-2010 average of the official weather station has an average of 18.4 ºC placing it 0.4 ºC above 18 ºC which enters on the HOT categorization of the semi-arid climate? How many people has to tell you the same? As I can see, I'm not the only one. A 2001 map with dubious trustworthy/reliability can't replace an actual official AEMET climate guide, nor an official Köppen climate classification, both with quite more actual averages than that map which you put, which is completely unuseful as it talks from data placed 15 years ago. Did you know that Valencia has about 100mm of more rain per year in the 1981-2010 average than in the one from 1971-2000? Obviously you didn't know it, and that map just shows data from 2001, when the 1981-2010 period was inexistent. So please, keep doing good editions on wikipedia, but not trashy editions like this one which don't follow us to any good path. There isn't any trustworthy nor reliable source which puts Valencia inside a climate which is not Csa. And there isn't any kind of categorization of any city which places it under their average temperature just because of their Urban heat phenomenon.
 * As I told you before, the meteorological station of Valencia is located outside the downtown. And nevermind, it's a Csa climate. Just for your information I tell you this thing about the meteo station. I hope you will understand it after all of this. Regards --TechnicianGB (talk) 18:33, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Just to understand how inaccurate and unuseful is that map, Barx for example registers an annual precipitation close to 1100mm according to the official AEMET station in the 1981-2010 period. In that map it appears on a BSh zone. Totally inaccurate. --TechnicianGB (talk) 18:35, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Hello, I'm the creator of the map you just called totally inaccurate and useless. I just wanted to add a few points here. First off, I used a worldwide raster of climate data, which very likely has less coverage of Spain than AEMET does. It was the best source of climate data I could find, however, that was in English. So there definitely are inaccuracies, because the data I used has limitations. However, it's the best I could find (in English). I wanted to create an alternative to the previous map (Map 2, shown on the bottom), which I felt was even more inaccurate: for instance, you can see that part of the northern border is listed as Tundra (looks to be the eastern Pyrenees and perhaps part of the north coast?), while most of the western half of the Pyrenees are shown as Cfb. It also shows a BWk (cold desert) in the northern part of the country.


 * If any of you can access climate rasters from AEMET through Spain's GIS portal (I don't speak Spanish unfortunately), I could calculate a new map using climate raster data. I'm looking for .asc and .bil files of mean monthly precipitation and temperature data. When calculating the climate types, I used computer coding using the Köppen formulas to classify each pixel based on its climate type. The process was computerized and there was no actual subjective input from me. I acknowledge there are very intense debates on Wikipedia about Spain's climate and I would like to say here, I really have no strong opinions on the particular climate types of Spain and I don't intend to upset anybody. I do appear to have upset a lot of Wikipedians in Spain, however, as the majority of the complaints about my many climate maps have been from Wikipedia users from Spain who disagree with my map. So I apologize if I particularly upset anyone with my map of Spain, but I was only trying to make a better one than Map 2. I put a lot of time into these maps, and I try my best to make them as accurate as possible; I do feel my current map is not useless and is somewhat useful, but I do readily admit that it could still be improved. For that, I need your help and collaboration. If any Spanish speakers here could find climate rasters from the Spanish GIS portal, I think we could make an even more accurate map than the one I've made.  Red titan  22:02, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I'd also like to add that if we can find a better source of climate raster data from AEMET through Spain's GIS portal, and can make a more accurate map from that data, I could make version of the map in Spanish if anyone wanted to translate the text of the map for me.  Red titan  22:16, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Hello, I was calling inaccurate this map which was maded in 2001, not your map. :) If your map is that one from the right of this page (Map 1) I would like to say that all of the zone nearby Almería-Las Palmas (practically a bit more than the half of the southeastern zone of Spain which are represented as BWk climates in the Map 2) have totally BWh climates, with averages of 18-19 ºC and even points close to 19.5 ºC like Cabo de Gata, in fact the city of Almería has an annual average of 19.1 ºC, making it the 4th warmest city in Spain (3rd is Seville, 2nd is Santa Cruz de Tenerife, 1st is Las Palmas). Tabernas Desert instead has a BWk climate. Yes, there is another zone with BWk climate, the Bardenas Reales, which slightly enter the BWk climate zone as it's slightly more arid than it's surrounding areas, which are all BSk. Ibiza and Formentera are also totally BSh climates, as both surpass an annual average of 18 ºC. And with those small editions, the map would be totally accurate. I mentioned you some cities, most of them have climate charts with the official averages of AEMET where you can consult all of this. There is a pdf which uses official AEMET data with 1961-1990 precipitations in some zones of Spain Cabo de Gata registers an average of 156mm (seek in the PDF for "Cabo de Gata" and the 3rd coincidence will show you this. 1971-2000 average of the Almería Airport has an average of 18.7 ºC.

There is a small zone in the levant of Spain which has a BSh climate, Cullera in the Valencian Community for example. That's good. But, in the map the zone of Tavernes de la Valldigna which was mentioned before, enters into the BSh zone, and it's a totally Csa climate. I would like to add that Valencia and nearby zones like Alboraya and Catarroja have climates with averages above 18 ºC, and they're Csa climates (because they receive a slightly higher precipitation than the categorization of semi-arid climate, they're not BSk (anyways also for their temperatures would be BSh, the meteorological station of Valencia is located outside the downtown, the Urban Heat Island doesn't affect the climate station of Valencia. Obviously it's placed by AEMET and it's not an amateur station or something like that placed between buildings, it's placed in the ground surrounded by grass, in fact if I don't remember bad, AEMET uses the same requeriments as the NOAA, or very similar to it. From Manises and Torrent to the interior they are really BSk climates. In addition, Sierra Calderona which is northern of Valencia has also a Csa climate, but Sagunto for example it has a BSk climate. Regards --TechnicianGB (talk) 23:40, 8 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Ah, ok - that one is definitely not mine. Actually, mine is Map #2. Again, like I said, if anyone can find some climate rasters for official Spanish sources, I'd be happy to make a Map #3.  Red titan  00:29, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

Here you have the standard average climate values for every province capital from Spain (Spain has autonomous communities which have provinces inside them). Here it is the official AEMET data for the period 1981-2010 within the AEMET official website. In addition, the zone nearby Almería or Las Palmas, Cabo de Gata and Las Palmas Airport it's also BWh, here you have the source which represents the data from AEMET of the airport in the period 1971-2000.

I've referenced you the page in English, it will appear an interactive map where you can choose any region you want and after you select it it will appear a list of the available cities and meteorological stations, when you press one it will appear the standard averages. Here is the one from the airport of Ibiza, as you can see the average surpasses 18ºC putting it inside the hot semi-arid zone. Here you have the one from the island of Menorca, which is a typical Csa mediterranean climate.

The most important is nearby the city of Valencia. which has a Csa climate and also surpasses the annual average of 18ºC by 0.4 degrees, authomatically placing it under the hot semi-arid zone instead of the BSk cold one. You can prove it here. And also here you have the official data of Almería, as I said before it's an hot desert climate not just for the temperatures, also for it's amount of rain and rain patterns. As you can check it, it has an annual average of 19.1ºC placing it quite warmer than the categorization of BSk, as it's entire surrounding zones (above you have the data for the airport in the period 1971-2000 which had an average of 18.7ºC).

Anyways, you can check anything you want in the source which I've mentioned before, it will appear an interactive map of Spain and you can select any region do you want and check the data.

I forgot to say that the other zone with a cold desert climate which you mentione on the north of Spain is Bardenas Reales, located in the province of Navarra. As you can check on the Wikipedia page of Bardenas Reales it's a total arid land with badlands, but also with arid terrain and the lack of vegetation. Regards! --TechnicianGB (talk) 16:45, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

hey Redtitan! In addition to all what I've said before, I think that I found Pandora's Box! Here you have the complete climate atlas of Spain and Portugal by AEMET and IPMA which it's translated in both Portuguese and English languages. Here it is: Every page is in the 3 languages. You have complete climate maps. If you seek "Almería" (CTRL+F with any PDF reader) you will find that it appears both zones with BWk and BWh climates in Spain, not just on Almería, but also on Murcia and Alicante. It has the averages of 1971-2000, which are slightly lower than the actual ones (1981-2010) in all the regions, but, if you want to comprove something in the actual averages just seek it here which is the same source that I've put you before which shows the interactive map of Spain and all the meteorological stations from AEMET from all Spanish provinces. And of course it's in English language. As you can see, coastal southern Almería and Las Palmas have totally BWh climates, being the only hot desert climates in Europe.

Doing the precipitation threshold of the Köppen climate classification on desertic climates, Almería and Las Palmas both receive less than 30% of the precipitation in the high-sun half of the year (it specifically receives 50mm from the average of 200mm, so it's a 25%). Doing the proper calculations according to that climate categorization, the average is 19.1 ºC which is multiplied by 20 and then it's divided by 2. The result is exactly 191, which places it 9mm under the threshold of 200mm. As it surpasses the BWh categorization with 1.1 ºC, it's the only hot desert climate for any European cities. I hope you will edit is as soon as you can in the Map 1, with this your map is gonna be very very realistic. Kind regards! --TechnicianGB (talk) 22:09, 9 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Hello, and thanks so much for the input. I'm afraid it's very difficult to change the maps based on averages from individual weather stations. Also, unfortunately I have to stop my mapmaking. Due to the recent election here in the US, I'm losing my health insurance in two months and I have to take on more work to afford healthcare. I'm also devoting my spare time to political activism. I wish you all the best in helping enrich the commons for all of humanity. And I'm truly ashamed of my country's recent decision. I wish you all the best.  Red titan  02:13, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Sure, Trump's election is a shame, but you won't expect he's going to repeal Obama's healthcare the very same day of his taking office (20th Jan), won't you? Talskubilos (talk) 11:58, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
 * An AEMET worker made this map in his own blog, although it's inaccurate with regard to the actual extension of mediterranean climates (Csa, Csb). In particular, most of the Csb area in Galicia would be actually Cfsb, an intermediate subtype between Cfb and Csb. Talskubilos (talk) 13:26, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Hello, I'm really sorry to hear that. Besides, in the climate atlas of both Spain and Portugal maded by AEMET, I just noticed that it appears an official map made by themselves. Can you please tell me how to upload images to Wikipedia? I just want to add this official AEMET map to the article Climate of Spain and in other pages. Effectively, from the city of Valencia until the north of Calpe, all of that zone has a Csa climate on the map. As some zones from Almería and Las Palmashave BWh and a few BWk climates. Kind regards! --TechnicianGB (talk) 23:58, 11 November 2016 (UTC)


 * I think you aren't a native speaker of English, because your tone is harsh and unfriendly. Please read Wikipedia:Civility. That said, Los Angeles climate isn't Csa but hot semi-arid (BSh). And although Valencia could be more rainy noawadays, it's still close to a semi-arid climate like the one found in the Turia valley between Chelva and Lliria. Talskubilos (talk) 18:58, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry if I made that impression. Yes, I'm not a native English speaker but a native Spanish speaker. I can write and speak quite well English but in communication things I can fail because I don't know the expression terms, it wasn't my intention buddy, I ensure you this. Yes, Lliria-Casinos-Chelva zone have bordering semi-arid climates, but those zones are more arid and receive less precipitation than Valencia. In fact it's a noticeable difference between the vegetation of those places and the one surrounding the city of Valencia (I know this is not relative but I'm just putting it as an example). You can also see the mountains between Pinet, Barx and Xeresa, as from the satellite they're lushly zones clearly distinguisheable with their surroundings and in that wide map they're still under the BSh categorization, Barx is the best example with a median rain amout of 1,100mm per year. I publicly thanked your last edition, as I've said before you're a good Wikipedia editor. Regards --TechnicianGB (talk) 19:16, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much ;-) The thing is in Köppen climate classification, the boundary between B and C climates is defined by the formula rainfall in cm < 2T (where T is the average yearly temperature) if 70% or more of precipitation falls in the winter half-year, rainfall < 2T+28 if 70% or more of precipitation falls in the summer half-year, or rainfall in cm < 2T+14 if neither of these two are appicable. This would imply a large part of the zone in central and souterhen Spain usually classified as mediterranean would actually be semi-arid. For that matter, map 2 is from the climate world map made by the University of Melbourne . You might also want to take a look at this data from 2000-2015 which would classify Valencia as BSh. What have you got to say about this? {ping|TechnicianGB}} Talskubilos (talk) 16:37, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Hello, but as I can see that map it's done at a very wide scale, it obviously has points which doesn't enter in their global classification and they're not accurate at all. Here you have a Köppen climate classification map hosted in the website http://koeppen-geiger.vu-wien.ac.at/ which has a zoom option up to 500x and you can see that the entire zone between Valencia to Dénia enters in the Csa classification. Small zones like Barcelona are clearly distinguishable from their surroundings, as you can see Barcelona enters inside the Cfa humid subtropical climate zone and it's surrounded by other climates; I want to say with this that if they would make a little change in a small zone like the one which surrounds the city of Valencia they could distinguish it from the nearby climate ranges, just like happens in Barcelona, which is the only one with a darker green colour which means a Cfa climate. But as you can see Valencia enters in the Csa zone. Anyways, I see another inaccuracy in that map, as the provinces of Almería and Las Palmas have an arid climate, and from the coast to 10-15km inland this climate is BWh as you can prove, like the example of the city of Almeria and it's surrounding areas, like the airports and the Cabo de Gata. The city of Almería and the Almería Airport have averages above 18 ºC from the 1961-1990 climate range, which as incremented in the 1971-2000 period and nowadays in the 1981-2010 period it's 19.1 ºC, and the airport of Almería is totally outside any kind of towns or cities which would increase it's temperature. So I don't know exactly why they didn't put that area as an arid zone instead of a semiarid zone, above you can see a pdf with the 1961-1990 period where both Cabo de Gata and Almería have precipitations under 200mm, so it's totally an arid climate.
 * Yes, with that 2000-2015 average Valencia would be classified as a BSh climate. But, as there is available a 30 year average from AEMET, which is the most authoritative and reliable source about the climate of Spain, Valencia still falls slightly under the classification of Csa, isn't it? Maybe in the next climate range of AEMET which will be made in 2020 Valencia will probably enter under the classification (corrected: original was calification) of BSh. Regards! --TechnicianGB (talk) 23:54, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't rely on maps but on actual data, and the thing is that according to Köppen's formula, Valencia climate is BSh because the avg yearly temp > 18ºC and the autumn rainfall is too short for reaching the 18.4*20+140=508mm yearly threshold. Anyway, regardless of the actual classification, I think a better description of Valencia's climate would be semi-arid mediterranean. {{Talskubilos (talk) 16:37, 9 November 2016 (UTC)


 * look at the climate description now. Now it resembles more to the truly description of the climate of the city? --TechnicianGB (talk) 20:53, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Now I've changed the actual definition adding it also "bordering a hot semi-arid climate (Köppen: BSh). It's better now? --TechnicianGB (talk) 20:56, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I reworded the climate description to "dry Mediterranean", which in Spanish Wikipedia equals to a semi-arid climate, as actual data prevents it from being classified as Csa, unlike Dénia, which has more rainfall in November-December due to its orography. Talskubilos (talk) 15:05, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Summer
Summers are hot, not merely warm to hot. Jim Michael (talk) 08:13, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Middle of the summer is hot, not whole summer. Subtropical -man   talk   (en-2)   09:22, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Four months (June, July, August & September) are hot. That's a long, hot summer. Jim Michael (talk) 19:09, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Only July and August are hot, May, June, September, October are warm. Subtropical -man   talk   (en-2)   20:46, 20 October 2015 (UTC)


 * References