Talk:Valencian Community/Archive 4

Name of the territory
Apparently we found a solution for the name of the language which, despite not satisfying completely anyone, it doesn't oppose anyone's POV. So that is a great accomplishment if we manage to keep it.

Now, we may be ready to find a solution for the name of the territory renouncing at maximalist opinions and trying to find common ground as we just did with the other stuff. If we accomplish this, then we may finally leave a stable version of the article to be improved with so many other things which could be said there, instead of wasting so much energies with these things.

My proposal, as stated somewhere above here, is that, since both names have been already introduced in the lead, Comunitat Valenciana and Comunidad Valenciana are then alternatively used throughout the text. As Xtv said, it would also be good to refer to it as "the former Kingdom" or the like. Also, despite I don't like it at all and, after thinking it over, I guess we may want to refer to this as simply "Valencia". I am totally opposed to this usage in Spanish or Valencian because it takes a part (the city or provinces of Valencia) to designate the whole territory, which is confusing. But, actually, if we are honest to ourselves, that is probably the name which is known by English speakers.

"Land of Valencia"
Now, about "Land of Valencia" here is what some other users, which are native English speakers, have said, as per the talk page above and archives


 * "Land of Valencia" sounds ridiculous. IMHO it should either be "Comunitat Valenciana" or "Valencian Community," preferably the latter. The title the article has now is about as good as we're likely to get. But you'll forgive me if I don't get involved in that particular nightmare of a debate. Believe me, if I ever move to Spain as I've been thinking of, I'm going to be keeping my fool mouth shut. - user:Montréalais 08:05, 1 March 2007 (UTC) (from his talk page where I made him and inquiry regarding this)


 * "Land of Valencia" sounds stupid. It is downright illiterate. Do you want people to think that Valencians are dumb, stupid and illiterate people? Is that what you want? Is that the impression that you wish to give? Then by all means stick with the name "Land of Valencia," because that's the impression it gives. It is not English.  user:Blondlieut 02:16, 27 February 2006 (UTC)(from above in this same talk page)

These are both native speakers.

Also non native speakers object on stylistic grounds, see:
 * Land of Valencia sounds really bad for me. In my opinion, whether it's Autonomous Community of Valencia or Valencian Community, it should be changed. user:Tsuba 04:51, 13 December 2005 (UTC) (from the archived talk page of this article)

There are some others, either native or not, registered or not, strongly objecting the "Land of" thing, just look in the archives. Now, there is one particular user who keeps pushing for "Land of Valencia" for unknown reasons. He is not a native English speaker and, arguably, close to the nationalist positions. If so, I beg him to please show some flexibility for the sake of the very Valencian nationalism he tries to defend but in a wrong manner, by pushing for the, by all accounts, stupid "Land of Valencia". To the Valencian nationalist users, please realize that "Land of" is not providing any sense of "countryness" as they seem to think, but only a sense of fairy tale and, after all, stupidity, which I am sure they don't desire for their country. Neither of us here, whether nationalist or not, want any part of this article to sound "illiterate", "ridiculous" or just "bad", let alone the name itself of the article.

Land of Valencia is a bad usage whose only source seems to be a -by all accounts sad and poor- translation made by the Tourism office of Valencia. It indeed sounds something like "Land of Fantasy" in a "Terra Mítica" fashion which makes sense coming from the Tourism office.

We are expected to do here more than just mimicking bad translations, specially if that means that we are soiling the very object named by the translation.

Opinions? I am for a speedy removal of all the "Lands of Valencia" elsewhere, to dignify a bit this territory and this encyclopaedia.

This is apparently the most obvious part of the difficult names question. When the speedy removal of this term is agreed here, we can follow with the other names suggested in order to find a final compromise.

Mountolive | Talk 23:36, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * About the language name, I am not satisfied since in the table there is none of my prefered names (even with it, I wouldn't be satisfied, but I could find it more acceptable). Putting the name there, is neutral and scientifically correct.
 * Now I don't have time to discuss about the name of the territory. I am not enthusiastic with your proposal, I will give my objections soon. However, it's good we can discuss about it quietly. I'm sure we can find again a solution which we won't like any of us ;-) Regards,--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 00:01, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Agree on Mountolive proposal. The same way we refer to the kingdom of Spain as simply Spain, the autonomous community of Valencia should be refered simply as Valencia. Xtv, we are not talking about our prefered names but about the official one. All these non-official (but historical, cultural...) names can very well be fitted in the Geography section which is only 5 cms below the lead paragraph. Maurice27 00:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok, Xtv, I'll be looking forward to your objections and, even more than those, to your alternative proposals because often is easier to object than to sum up. In any case, to go step by step, the first thing would be to remove once for all the hideous "Land of Valencia". Are you ok with that? and the rest of people around here? When this is decided, we may keep going with the final decission.
 * In the meantime, please note that I am holding my removal on what seems to be a ridiculously obvious gaffe ("Land of Valencia") just to check with you guys and make sure everyone -or most of us- we are ok with it. I understand that, due to the inherent controversial topic, we all (including me) have to some effort. Mountolive | Talk 04:33, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not agree about removing the name of "Land of Valencia". I only can to repeat the same about the name of "Land of Valencia": According to WP:SOURCE, you should provide first external references to support this proposal. Until now, it's only a personal point of view with no authority here in Wikipedia. Mainly, you're arguing that it's seems to be closely "nationalist" for you. It's an opinion, not a fact. Valencian nationalist parties often use "Valencian Country" in English (i.e. see Category:Political parties in the Valencian community. In the other hand, "Land of Valencia" is being used from Valencian Government, so it's a very important external source. Here in Wikipedia, according to WP:VERIFY, we can contrast several sources, but we shouldn't put these in doubt based only on personal POV from Wikipedian users.


 * "Valencian Community" is a wrong semantic translation: it resembles to a minority group of somewath "Valencians" living in a small area. And it's not being used by anyone in English. In the other hand, the name "Land of Valencia" has a correct reason: the word of "land" is also often used to refer Wales, "the land of Wales", altough it's more used as "Country of Wales", but not as "Region of Wales" nor "Community of Wales". Spanish and in Catalan it's named "País de Gales", so it's coherent to name "País Valenciano" as "Land of Valencia". Valencian nationalist parties follow other criteria: the traditional using of "Basque Country" for "País Vasco" by Basque nationalism parties. It's true that the Valencian Government is on a nationalist party: the People's Party is a very bold Spanish nationalism, so they don't want to name the territory in English in the same way as Basque nationalist (a stupid way), so they call it "land" instead of "country".


 * Last adding, the usage of "Region of Valencia" is not correct at all yet, as it would be a translation from "Regió de València/Región de Valencia", not from "Comunidad Valenciana/Comunitat Valenciana", and the consideration of "region" is not legal: Spanish Constitution recognizes regions and nationalities inside Spain, and according to the Valencian Statute of Autonomy, the "Comunitat Valenciana" is a nationality, not a region. So "Region" is incorrect and discouraged. Do you want a correct name? Ok. The only alternative of correct name in English for "País Valencià/País Valenciano" (official "Comunitat Valenciana/Comunidad Valenciana") is "Valencian Country", according to the usage of similar cases from English-native territories and speakers, and according to recent literature in English (until 20-30 years ago it's very recent).


 * Of course, it's also an personal POV of mine, but I've provided first an external source before giving this. --Joanot Martorell &#9993; 09:59, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * That's amazing! We are here talking politely and reasoning about the main controversial subject instead of calling names or reversing each others' edits! Thx everybody for this change of mood, and let's hope this is the way work will be done in the future with this article.
 * Regarding the name of the territory, the problem regards on the ambiguity of the original names:
 * * Comunitat Valenciana was created in the first 1980s in order to replace old-fashioned and no longer in use names such as Regne de València. Its name couldn't be Regne because it was not a different Kingdom, but the replacing Community was no much better since that word is used for too many meanings (e.g. comunitat de veïns-"neighbourhood", comunitat de béns-"shared goods").
 * * País Valencià was the name used by the democratic opposition parties during the last times of Franco's dictatorship, but when the new democracy came some Spanish politicians thought that one (Basque) Country was enough and didn't want to offcialize what their local politicians supported. As an example PSOE's supporting party, PSPV (Partit Socialista del País Valencià) main events are the Consell Nacionals- "(Valencian) National Council"s.
 * We are now trying to fight again or solve once for all the 1970s Valencian symbols war, but we are not chosen politicians neither we are representative of the whole Valencian society.
 * In my opinion both the official names and the traditionally used should appear and be explained in their context with the proper translations into English.
 * Thank you everybody for this collaborative effort. --Casaforra (parlem-ne) 14:27, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Let me just start this post by adding an additional comment from what seems one more English native speaker strongly rejecting "Land of Whatever"

''01/03/07 Hi again, please can somebody provide an English language source for "Land of Valencia" (...) not originating from Spain, the terms both sound barbaric in English and are not used by native speakers (...) "Land of Valencia" is like "Land of Nod", "Land of Nevermore" or "Land of the Midnight Sun". Its awful, and sounds anachronistic, we would never talk of the "Land of France"''.. user:Boynamedsue


 * Now, Joanot, I think is clear enough from my text above that I propose removing "Land of Valencia" not because "seems to be closely nationalist" to me. No. I am proposing speedy deletion of this term because it seems to be, as per all native English speakers accounts:


 * "stupid"
 * "ridiculous"
 * "barbaric"
 * "awful"
 * and similar.


 * Yes, you have a source. But the source is not a native English source and thus can be perfectly mistaken, right? Besides, note the kind of one of the main sources cited: the Tourism office. They invented "Terra Mítica" and now they invent "Land of Valencia" following the same "mythological" fashion but here is English wikipedia and, again, as I said above: we are not here to mimick or repeat the mistakes of someone else.
 * Let me quote here one more piece from user:Blondlieut
 * That usage in English seems artificial in the extreme, and very "Disney," as in ...."The Land of Tomorrrow," brought to you the good people at General Electric. It's not real English, it's publicity English, and yes, it's Tourism Department English.


 * Also, sources are important, but not everything: there are thousands of sources out there claiming that the Jews did not suffer the Holocaust and similar stupid things; this means that having the source is good, but having the good one is what we really need and a Tourist department is not the best, because Tourist deparments speak, well, Tourist department English; but this is supposed to be a more serious than that encyclopaedic effort


 * Sources matter here, yes, but common sense does even more!!


 * I can't see why you would keep insisting on something which is, by all accounts from English native speakers, debasing, silly and lacking respect for the territory. I don't know whether you are Valencian or Catalan, but, with the due respect, you don't seem a bilingual English speaker (nor I am, that is why I quote these people) and in any case you should feel respect for the territory and not drag it down to names which sound dumb to English speakers, because you seem to forget for a moment that this is English wikipedia.
 * As someone else said : do you want that people (English speakers) think that Valencians are stupid, dumb and illiterate people? I think you don't but, still, you seem reluctant to abandon the now infamous "Land of Beauty" thing.


 * Would you please consider once again dropping this bad usage?
 * We will have to vote here, but I am asking you first, as you are the one clearly supportive of this "brand" to please reconsider.
 * As I say sometimes: changing my mind only proves that I am able to think...nothing else, man.

Mountolive | Talk 05:36, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Do you mean that "Valencian Country" is more correct, so?. If "Land of Valencia" shouldn't be used, what main name is being proposed from you?. It's the important matter of the discussion, not only if "LV" is correct or not. --Joanot Martorell &#9993; 08:50, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I mean (do I really have to say it again?) that "Land of" is wrong and even harmful. I take your no-answer above as an open door to remove it. If that was correct, I appreciate your flexibility: it is great news for the article.
 * Don't worry for the most correct name just of yet: if we are to do this right, we should go step by step assessing all of them (and there are quite a few). What we are doing now is discarding the worse of them all. When this is agreed, we will go about next step. There is no rush and no one with good reasons should be afraid of debating here.
 * Apparently you are the only one around here with strong feelings for LV. If that was correct and, as I said, you are open to an speedy removal for the sake of consensus and improving the article, then let us know and I will proceed.
 * If not, we should vote. Mountolive | Talk 09:42, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * As I said before the term País Valencià is a name used for left-winged and nationalists (PSPV-PSOE and BNV are only two examples of the above), so it MUST appear in the article. It's a reality in the Valencian society.
 * Whether País Valencià is translated as Land of Valencia or Valencian Country or whatever in English I don't care.
 * As for now, there is only criticism against one of the translations. Ok, if this is a flawed one let's search for English native speakers trying to reword País Valencià into English. So, please, don't delete anything in the meanwhile, let's consult them in order to make sure Land of Valencia is not proper and when we all are positive let's replace it for whatever term they agree to fit English grammar and Valencian meaning. --Casaforra (parlem-ne) 11:29, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[Reset tabs] I would really prefer "Valencian Community", especially given the conflict. It is the literal English translation of the official name of the 'object' that we are talking about: no-one can criticise WP for using it. The term autonomous community is widely used in (British) English to refer to such structures, which we cannot call states (because Spain is not federal), but which we don't want to call regions (because of their legislative prerogatives). As for a translation of País Valencià, "Valencian Country" is both linguistically more accurate (Valencià is an adjective in the original, not a noun), easier on the eyes for the native English spaker that I am, and closer to the generally accepted translation of "Basque Country" for the (Spanish) País Vasco. What do people think? Physchim62 (talk) 15:20, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Comunitat valenciana  --->   Valencian Community
 * País valencià  --->   Valencian Country
 * I agree. --Casaforra (parlem-ne) 15:53, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Support. I'm also agree to name it mainly "Valencian Community" or "Valencian Country" in the leading text. Also to mention both names in Catalan and in Spanish, as in previous versions were mentioned, but someone deleted it under no reason. For the name "Valencian Community", I'm still thinking that this translation is wrong, but I suppose that you can find easily an external source showing this usage in English language, can't you?. --Joanot Martorell &#9993; 21:40, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I haven't found a good external source yet&mdash;the Generalitat Valenciana uses "Comunitat Valenciana" in its English-language publications! I am not too worried about that, the Google test isn't everything, especially if we can get a consensus among editors. Physchim62 (talk) 14:56, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Land of Valencia Lonely Planet guide.
 * Valencian Country The Basques, the Catalans abd Spain (by Daniele Conversi) --PmmolletTalk 17:04, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

We shouldn't open a new front until the last one is cleared or we will get all messed up and going in circles with nothing done. So let's vote, if you may and, when this is cleared, we'll start the next round.

''It has been sugested a removal of the term "Land of Valencia" since different users who are English native speakers consider it an unfortunate bad English translation which has been called by these with adjectives like "ridiculous", "awful", "stupid" and similar.

The bottom line concern is that apparently this ill usage in English debases the dignity of the territory to the one of a mere commercial brand, whose removal is to be agreed here by means of a voting.

Agree to remove
 * 1) Agree. Mountolive | Talk 18:38, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Disagree to remove


 * Don't hurry!
 * Let's find first the proper translation for País Valencià into English. --Casaforra (parlem-ne) 20:17, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't accept neither this voting: First: it needs an external source that support this POV (personal opinions from Wikimedian users aren't authoritative here, see WP:SOURCE). Second: we should take in count also the following WP policies considered as nutshells rules: WP is not a democracy, and polling is not a substitute for discussion, so it's only a survey, according to WP:STRAW. The result of this voting have no authority binding for me. Instead of it, we should make a RfC. --Joanot Martorell &#9993; 21:49, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Casaforra, the article has been stating, and states, "Land of Valencia" for months, and the evidence against it has been there for months as well (just look into the archived talk pages). I only compiled it, because there are so many users strongly suggesting to remove that, all unrelated to each other. I just can't see the point to spend a few months more discussing about it when the evidence seems so strong when, after all, all we are going to keep hearing is that the Tourism website promotes "Land of Valencia"...(and that a book published by a Spanish in Madrid in 1975 says "Valencian Country", but that discussion is aborted now, so don't bother).

Joanot, it is good that you found the guideline stating that "wikipedia is not a democracy" because it is actually covering your behaviour has been proving all these months refusing the good willed advice of English users who told you not to use that name which, as per their comments, is ridiculous. I bet that you will continue making good usage of this guideline in the future, congratulations.

From now on you can keep this article as your playgroud with your one-or-two sources by your side: I am outta here, it's tiresome to receive a Tourism website as the master source to state what seems to be a splendid gaffe and play deaf to all the common sense evidence against it. As I said in the intro to the top of this section: Valencia is probably the only name which English speakers use, that's all, no "Valencian Country", no "Valencian Community", no "Land of the guys who think they know more English than English speakers". Nothing like that.

So, since I'm outta here, you are free to revert if you want my contributions adding the whole Geography section (only Maurice helped me) and substantially completing the Economy section which Maurice created. Who cares about those little things when we can promote Catalan nationalism instead? right Joanot? You can go back to your routine of Catalan nationalism. Actually I suggest you a new moniker to add which, unlike the others, has a clear translation into English: use Catalunya Sud, South Catalonia, easy translation, not controversial. I am sure you can find one or two sources out there to cover it. Go for it man. Before I leave, just wanted to tell you that is because of people like you why I left the Bloc, because you are not the only one so narrowminded that are ready to hurt their country for the sake of their country....crazy, but true. By the way, Jmabel is an experienced and reasonable guy: this would be a nice challenge to see if he is ready to step the accelerator again here in wikipedia, so try to listen every once and a while him and Xtv for those occasions when they say your propagada is just too obvious.

Bye. Mountolive | Talk 01:54, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

This should not be a matter of voting
The simple fact is, those who most feel a stake in the outcome of this are not native English speakers, and hence, while they have strong feelings, those feelings do not imply any expertise on correct English-language usage.

As a native speaker, I've almost always heard simply "Valencia"; because that can also refer to the historic kingdom, by Wikipedia standards the parenthetical disambiguation is reasonable. In other words, Valencia (autonomous community), where the article exists, is perfectly appropriate.

The analogy to Basque Country is irrelevant. That is simply the correct English-language name of another place. One could as well argue that because we refer to Scotland we should also refer to Welshland or Franceland. This is simply not how things work. "Valencian Country" and "Land of Valencia" are both occasionally used; they should be mentioned and they should be redirects, but Valencia (autonomous community) should be the name of the article. - Jmabel | Talk 01:13, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Please can the Valencian and Catalan uses listen to reason. The english-native speakers here have always maintained the same position regarding LOV and VC, that they dispute the existence of these terms AS USED BY NATIVE SPEAKERS. If there were any sources supporting their use by English speakers, they would have been posted. The sources which have been posted are inadequate, given they are second language examples, or are published in Spain. Spanish regions do not have the right to name themselves in English, English usage takes precedance, and the term used in English is simply "Valencia". There should be no vote on this matter, the words Valencian Country and Land of Valencia should be removed and any addition without a new source for discussion should be considered vandalism. A very pissed off User:boynamedsue

No body has debated anything for 24 hours, may I now remove the disputed mistranslations currently defacing this page (and my language)? User:boynamedsue


 * Would you please provide any suitable translation for País Valencià instead of just erasing them?
 * Land of valencia is a bad translation? Ok. Valencian Country doesn't fit English grammar? Ok.
 * Tell us how would you phrase País Valencià in English and we'll agree to replace that term.
 * But don't just remove it because then it's as it didn't exist. And it happens to do: Political parties such as the now ruling in the Spanish government PSOE has a local federation party called PSPV . Isn't it relevant enough?
 * Instead of just erasing help us find the proper translation, that's the debate we are having now. --Casaforra (parlem-ne) 08:22, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Pais valencia is, in English, "Valencia". The official name of the region is the Comunitat Valencia or Comunidad valenciana, its English name is Valenica. The usage of Pais Valencia is valid in Catala, Pais Valenciano is slightly less so in Spanish, but still current enough to be mentioned on the Spanish wp page, but we shouldnt be inventing English translations for these terms, it is original research.

Terms used in Spanish are irrelevant, if the name doesnt exist in English, we cant just invent it. La Ciutat Comtal, for example, exists in Catalan, but should not be translated as "The County City" or "City of the Counts", because the concepts and associations inherent in these homologs are different in English, so the meaning of the phrase is lost. It is a typically Spanish attitude to think that everything should have a translation, but some concepts are not transferable from one language to another. I would have no problem with "Pais Valencia" or "Pais Valenciano" appearing on the page, with a proviso explaining that they are disputed, politically loaded terms, but there should be no English translation. User:boynamedsue


 * See? We don't disagree so much!
 * I was claiming that the term País Valencià should appear in the article with a proper translation under brackets, with an explanation of its use by left-winged parties, associations, or people who have no problem of recognizing that Catalan and Valencian are the very same language (and that doesn't mean they are Catalanists).
 * Regarding the place, I'd propose a section for the problem of the names with all the options. But on the lead there should be only the official name, Comunitat Valenciana. Every other version (País Valencià, for example, should be a redirection to the main Valencia (autonomous community), in the case of the blaverist Regne de Valencia too, since its an actual usage, different to the historical Kingdom of Valencia).
 * So the only difference is about giving a translation of País Valencià or not. In my opinion it should be there so that English readers could understand the intention of that term.
 * Let's keep talking reasonably, it's going fine. --Casaforra (parlem-ne) 20:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that "pais" doesn't have a translation into English in this context. I would leave Kingdom of Valenica out, given Valencia doesn't have a King. Personally, though, I would err on the side of caution, why have a list of foreign names in an English article? cheers Boynamedsue
 * I'd start the article with sth like:

Valencia (officialy Comunitat Valenciana, but also (see here) País Valencià or simply València, in Valencian; Comunidad Valenciana in Spanish) is an autonomous community located in eastern Spain.


 * Then, it should exist the section Other names explaining the different names that exist, their usage and the best translations to Englsih.--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 10:22, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

What is our justification for saying that "Valencia" is the correct name in English? That would be the translation of Comunidad autónoma de Valencia, not Comunidad Valenciana: see, for example, Madrid (autonomous community). Physchim62 (talk) 14:31, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, I think we have a consensus that LOV and VC are not English, and that the sources provided supporting them are not good enough. If anyone wants to reinstate these terms please provide other sources or an explanation of why they are good enough. The arguments you need to counter are as follows:

1: The source for "Valencian country" was published in madrid at the start of the transition. The terminology for these regions was in flux at that moment (1975), and the text appears to be translated into English from Spanish. The usage of Valencian Country should be supported by a non-Spanish, reputable source, or the term should not appear.

2: The Land of Valencia is an attempt to render "Pais Valencia" in English. It does not work because the word "land" does not translate the ambiguous nature of the latinate word "pais", and it sounds silly because of the folkloric connotations of the term. The source provided is a shonky translation of something from the Valencian tourist board. A first language source not related to tourism is, IMO, necessary to support the reinsertion of this item.

Valencian Community vs Valencia is a debate that has some merit and apparently no political undercurrent, well done Physchim! I go for Valencia because it is more used, but Ive seen Valencian community written.

When someone changes the names, please provide reasons. If LOV and VC are reinstated please answer 1 and 2.

170307

boynamedsue


 * Boynamedsue, I'm afraid you are not seeing the point:


 * YOU CAN'T ERASE "LAND OF VALENCIA" OR "VALENCIAN COUNTRY" NAMES YET !!!


 * Don't you notice that by removing those names you are acting as if the "País Valencià" name didn't exist. And it does! It appears at the "Estatut d'Autonomia". There is a number of people and parties who actively se it.


 * You say you are an English native speaker, and you say none of those terms fits. Ok, in that case you are the right person to give us a proper translation into English, After that we can finnally write a section about the names this community/region/nation/whatever receives.


 * But you can't simply erase the attempts of explaining a name. That's not fair at all.
 * Until then, I warn I'll reverse your changes regarding them. I'm sorry. --Casaforra (parlem-ne) 21:14, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Cas mate, it is not our job to invent names for foreign parts. We use the English term, wiki reports, not invents. The name does not have a translation into English, we shouldnt look for one. The name for this region in English is "Valencia", it already is translated.

In effect, what i am saying is that the Comunitat Valencia is a real thing, described in this article, our job is to describe the reality rather than the terminology that is used to describe it. In effect PV IS the comunitat valencia, but PV is a term unacceptable to some people. I dont see how this internal spanish debate affects the name given to the real administrative region in English.

I'm going to revert because you accept that LOV and VC are not correct, therefore they shouldnt even be there whilst we are debating PV and how it should be translated into English.

Again, my objections to these terms are 1 and 2, if you have answers to these doubts, or objections to them please explain before reverting.

Is PV in the statute? i thought it was Comunitat/d Valencia/ana. Awaiting an answer. BNS


 * As a matter of example, we tend to use the name of China when we refer to the People's Republic of China. I'm aware English speakers use the name Valencia, but they mean a whole place whose name is not that. If you fear any English Wikipedia user might get lost when searching Valencia you can simply edit this page: Valencia. But I guess there is no need, just take a look.
 * So the problem remains in the names given to the place, and it will be so while every any new user wants to break the reached consensus.
 * Estatut d'Autonomia states the ONLY official name is Comunitat Valenciana and in the preamble two more names are given Regne de València and País Valencià. Just read it. By the way, it's in the autoctonous language, not in Spanish.
 * So, in my opinion, the lead should explain this.
 * BUT, in a further "Problem on the names" section there should be an explanation about the other terms used to refear to the same place. In case we just erase whatever names we dislike for grammar reasons or political prejudices we would be lying to Wikipedia users, ain't?
 * País Valencià is the way this place is called by a number of political parties (PSOE and Esquerra Unida, for example), but also many other cultural or environmentalist associations.
 * Remove País Valencià and Wikipedia users will be banned a certain point of view and a part of the Valencian society.
 * Do you keep claiming that País Valencià shouldn't be translated? Why?  :O   Isn't Zhōnghuá Rénmín Gònghéguó translated into English so that those of us who don't understand Chinese may notice what is intended by that?
 * I insist, provide us a proper English term so that English speakers may understand what is implied by the name País Valencià. If your political prejudices refrain to do so then let the prior attempts be. Maybe Valencian Country or Land of Valencia are not good English, but at least they try to explain a fact your proposed silence ignores.
 * Until then, reversion, I'm sorry. --Casaforra (parlem-ne) 10:39, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
 * According to Lonely Planet Guide (Valencia and The Costa Blanca. By Miles Roddis) País Valencià is translated as Land of Valencia.
 * There's another book (The Basques, the Catalans, and Spain: Alternative Routes to Nationalist Mobilisation By Daniele Conversi) that uses Valencian country. --PmmolletTalk 15:43, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Name in Statute of autonomy
I removed this:
 * ''Ley orgánica 1/2006, de 10 de abril, de reforma de la Ley orgánica 5/1982, de 1 de julio, de Estatuto de Autonomía de la Comunidad Valenciana. See especially article 1.1. Note that the Spanish-language title uses the Valencian name. Accessed 25 November 2006.

It is incorrect, of course. http://www.rlgv.gva.es/almacenes/resultados/index.htm?no_cache=1&L=0&user_rlgv_pi_search_page%5BlstUIDs%5D=25&user_rlgv_pi_search_page%5BuidDisp%5D=25 Physchim62 (talk) 15:08, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry but you're wrong. As we can see in that link, law 5/1982 is derogated. Please, read article 1.1. PmmolletTalk 16:10, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I was a little hasty, yes, but the PDF file is the version published by the Corts Valencianes, which misquotes the title of the old statute later in the text: do we have a reference for the BOE version of the 2006 statute? Physchim62 (talk) 14:24, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, there are HTML and PDF formats. I think is really hard to read it because every new article derogates every old article, but if you want to change it, feel free, never mind. --PmmolletTalk 17:44, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Obviously the Corts version is easier to read ;), but the Castilian title is indeed
 * LEY ORGÁNICA 1/2006, de 10 de abril, de Reforma de la Ley Orgánica 5/1982, de 1 de julio, de Estatuto de Autonomía de la Comunidad Valenciana
 * This fits with the co-officialty of the two languages for the names of the component provinces (Ley 25/1999). Physchim62 (talk) 16:41, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Can you understand that Ley Orgánica 5/1982, de 1 de julio, de Estatuto de Autonomía de la Comunidad Valenciana is derogated? What about article 1.1? --PmmolletTalk 18:59, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

BOLD edit
My edit does not pretend to be consensual, merely a suggestion to avoid ever more intricate reverting... It does not adress the issue of other translations of Comunitat valenciana, to which I leave other editors the task of writing a seperate section (as seems to be a consensus above). Someone is going to revert me, obviously, but it seems useful to give an idea of what this article could start with if we didn't have all these translation arguments. Physchim62 (talk) 15:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * That's fine for me. Now the many times debated subject of the "Names" may be explained on its own section.
 * By the way, the template shows a wrong footnotes now. Is it because of your change, Physchim62?
 * --Casaforra (parlem-ne) 16:07, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * "Comunidad Valencana" isn't official. See an example of BOE:
 * COMUNIDAD AUTÓNOMA DE CATALUÑA
 * COMUNIDAD AUTÓNOMA DE ANDALUCÍA
 * COMUNIDAD AUTÓNOMA DEL PRINCIPADO DE ASTURIAS
 * COMUNITAT VALENCIANA
 * COMUNIDAD AUTÓNOMA DE ARAGÓN
 * COMUNIDAD AUTÓNOMA DE CASTILLA-LA MANCHA
 * COMUNIDAD AUTÓNOMA DE LAS ILLES BALEARS
 * COMUNIDAD DE MADRID
 * COMUNIDAD DE CASTILLA Y LEÓN


 * Another question, what's that Flag 	Coat of arms? --PmmolletTalk 18:23, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I nevr said that Comunidad Valenciana was official, merely that it is a very commonly used name and to include it in the table heading makes this articles compatible with all the other autonomous community articles (including Catalonia and Balearic Islands). The official status of Comunitat Valenciana is noted in the very first line of the article, without even needing to go to the reference. I cannot see the reference problem in the table (fixed by someone else?), but I have fixed the bug concerning the captions of the flag and the coat of arms. Physchim62 (talk) 17:37, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Did you never say that Comunidad Valenciana was official? Just read few lines before... Well this is not the problem.
 * I thought that in infoboxes there is only official data; please, have a look at the other articles of AC of Spain. --PmmolletTalk 21:57, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Mmm, you don't answer. So then, I suppose you agree that in infoboxes there are only official names. --PmmolletTalk 11:09, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the examination of other infoboxes will assure you that there are non official names used throughout, as I believe it should be. Physchim62 (talk) 14:36, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't see Aragonese or Catalan names in Aragon's article, I don't see Catalan name in Murcia's article, I dont' see Leonese name in Castile & León's article, I don't see Galician name in Asturias' article, etc. --PmmolletTalk 21:20, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * You've got work to do, obviously ;) Physchim62 (talk) 15:48, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't understand why non-official names should be used in Valencia's infobox, and shouldn't be used in other infoboxes of AC of Spain. PmmolletTalk 21:03, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Official names in infoboxes
I only see official names in infoboxes. Maurice27 says that in Belgium's article there's the German name. That's true, but German is official in Belgium. About Japan.... mmmmm koku isn't a language!!!!

If you want, we can add an English translation of official names of AC of Spain.--PmmolletTalk 09:13, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 国 (koku) means "nation", "country" or "state" in Japanese: the infobox includes both the official transliteration ("Nippon") and the one which is generally used ("Nihon"). Surely the English name should be either the title of the article or mentioned in the lead section as the translation of the official name. As for German being official in Spain, well Castilian Spanish is official in the Comunitat Valenciana as well! Needless to say that such a 'rule' of only having "official" names or also having all minority names would make life very difficult for the editors of, say, United Kingdom (no official language, maybe thirty significant minority languages) Physchim62 (talk) 11:14, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Your opinion seems to change every time...
 * I'm not talking about lead section, there's another discussion about that.
 * I'm talking about infoboxes. In all articles of AC of Spain there are only official names in infoboxes. Why Valencia should be an exception? I don't see any reason. Now, what are you proposing? To erase the official name of the infobox? Why?


 * PD: Good explanation about what 'koku' means. Maurice27 should read it. --PmmolletTalk 11:34, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think my opinion changes at all, I am all in favour of giving information in the clearest possible way... What is "official" in the infoboxes of ACs? The infobox in Asturias certainly has a demonination which was never voted by the Cortes Generales, the criterion which you pretend to use for the infobox on this article. Comunidad Valenciana is good Spanish, whatever its official status, and Spanish is a language used by a significant minority (possibly a majority, I'm not here to argue statistics on that point) of the population of the Valencian Community. Your edits are to deny that there is a different name for the autonomous community, unofficial since the new Statute of Autonomy certainly, but still used... Physchim62 (talk) 14:16, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
 * If you are in favour of giving information in the clearest possible way, why do you delete information? Do you think that an infobox without the name of the territory is OK?
 * What is official in the infoboxes of ACs is, of course, the name of the AC. If you think that Asturian name is unofficial, even though Asturian language is protected per law, and this name is used by Asturian government, please discuss it there.
 * Of course Spanish is official and for this reason we all agree to add the Spanish official name in the infobox. As we can see in the Statute and in BOE, the Spanish official name is "Comunitat Valenciana". This is the name used by all public administrations of Spain. Nor Government of Spain, nor Government of Valencia use "Comunidad Valenciana" because is unofficial.
 * Of course "Comunidad Valeniana" is used by lots of people, newspapers, etc, and for this I don't oppose to add this name in the lead section, but in the infobox it must be only the official one, according to other ACs. --PmmolletTalk 15:58, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Proportions of the Valencian autonomous community Flag

 * After a quite extensive search throughtout the whole internet, I haven't been able to find any single source to state that this flag has 1:2 proportions. No laws, no estatutes, no decrees... nothing. I have to say, that I ALMOST couldn't find anything to state it is 2:3 either... Only the source I gave some weeks ago, and that "some users" didn't believe... BUT, then, I thought about where to adress to ask for a confirmed source. And what better choice than the Spanish Vexillological Society (the SEV, see []) which, BTW is a member of the Fédération internationale des associations vexillologiques. So, I believe this source to be the most trustworthy of all.


 * This said, I went to SEV site, [], and found a "banderas" (flags) link on the left. Then, I clicked on the "Comunidades Autónomas" link, see [], and then on the "Comunidad Valenciana/Comunitat Valenciana" one see [], to get here: [], where it clearly states a proportions of 2:3.


 * But, maybe this society simply had these same proportions for all spanish autonomous communities flags... WRONG! let's see some examples:


 * 1) CASTILLA Y LEÓN: proportions 76:99. See, []
 * 2) CASTILLA-LA MANCHA: proportions 1:2. See, []
 * 3) COMUNIDAD DE MADRID: proportions 7:11. See, []
 * 4) PAÍS VASCO/EUSKADI: proportions 14:25. See, []
 * Being ALL OTHERS of proportions 2:3.


 * I sincerely hope this FINALLY ends the fight about the proportions. I gave the most trustworthy source available, which NO ONE can doubt. Let's then, please, change the actual flag in wikipedia, which is wrong.

--Maurice27 21:07, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * There is no official ratio, therefore both 2:3 and 1:2, from which we can find examples over official buildings, are both equaly correct. Therefore, I think both could fit in the article. But I think, in this article (but not sure, the history of the page is quite long) that 1:2 was before 2:3 and I see no justification for the change.--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 11:23, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Xtv, but you know that it is completely impossible to have no official ratio or proportions. There can't be two different flags for the same territory. That could lead to mistake. --Maurice27 22:47, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

An example of flag PmmolletTalk 21:05, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Other names, section
Since the debate about the names used for this place seems to be never-ending (as new users come in or old users decide to quit tired), I proposed to write a section called "Other notes" where all the names were explained, their origin, the political views of their users, their actual use, and so on.

I just noticed there are already similar articles in Spanish and Catalan: Denominaciones de la Comunidad Valenciana and Denominacions del País Valencià.

What if those articles are translated into English and we just link to it from the main article?

Btw, maybe I'm not the best guy to do it: I have problems with the very first word: Denominations? Names?

It's just an idea, --Casaforra (parlem-ne) 07:47, 26 March 2007 (UTC)


 * For me it's OK. I also want to say that my English is not good enough to make this article.
 * I think we all agree that simply 'Valencia' is the most used name in English. I don't know if 'Valencian Community' is usual, but perhaps should be added as a translation of the official name in the lead section. --PmmolletTalk 11:52, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I am in the process of translating the article. I would like to make some points, regarding the previous discussion:
 * Per the naming conventions in Wikipedia, the title of the article should as specific as possible. In that sense Valencia (autonomous community) is appropriate.
 * There are no conventions regarding the inclusion of the alternative valid and widely used names within the lead section. Therefore it is valid to include the terms Land of Valencia, Valencian Country and Kingdom of Valencia within the lead section.
 * Per the naming convention regarding local conventions, if the administrative entities or political divisions receive a particular name in the local language, they should never be renamed to a different one, just to conform to another country's convention (i.e. the American or the English usage). If the constituent political entities in Spain are locally or colloquially called País (e.g. País Basco, País Valenciano), they should retain this name in the article regardless of the fact that the word "country" might have [if at all] a different meaning in English. I, personally, do not think it portrays a different meaning in English (compare the constituent "countries" of the United Kingdom; that is the constituent entities of a nation are also called countries, even if they do not portray that denomination in legal documents).
 * Per the abovementioned subsection of the naming conventions, literal translations offered by the governments of the countries or regions are valid, regardless of the fact that they might not conform to another nation's schema. Therefore, the rendering "Land of Valencia", being used in publications approved by the local tourism council (i.e. a government institution) are valid. Even if it is argued that this institution does not fully represent the Government of Valencia (the Generalitat), per the abovementioned naming subsection of the naming conventions a "general equivalent or the obvious cognate should be used", in which case "Valencian Country" is also appropriate regardless of the fact that it is not widely known in English.
 * Translating the name of a country [or the name of any particular institution] does not constitute original research, even if a particular form is not widely used in English. Venezuela is known simply as Venezuela in English, but the official name is properly rendered as Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela (regardless of the fact that Bolivarian is not an existing adjective in the English language). Even in the remote case that the terms "Land of Valencia" and "Valencian Country" had not been used in English (which is not the case, since the names have been translated, even if by Valencian public institutions), offering the translation is as appropriate as offering the translation of the New Alliance Party, National Institute of Statistics, Geography and Informatics, and the like, even if these parties and institutions of Mexico are not known in English-speaking countries.
 * The inclusion of all names used is also consistent with the policies of Wikipedia. Portraying only one version and ignoring the rest of the terms widely used officially and extra-officially is considered a bias.
 * In light of the above, I strongly object the deletion of the terms "País Valencià" and "Regne de Valencia" and their respective translations from the lead section, and urge the editors to reinsert them. In light of the policies mentioned above, deleting valuable information is detrimental to the article.
 * -- the D únadan 05:55, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion
I am not sure that we need such a long section as the articles on es: and ca:, but obviously the term País Valencià has to appear somewhere! I was going to place the following into a "Names" section, but I will place it here for comment first. It may well need expansion, but I think we should try to get something which fits neatly into the article, giving English speakers the necessary information but not taking over the page (there is more to the País Valencià than just its name) Physchim62 (talk) 13:25, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

PC's Suggestion
The official name of the autonomous community, Comunitat Valenciana, has seen a variety of translations into English, including "Land of Valencia", "Region of Valencia" or simply "Valencia". The Spanish name, Comunidad Valenciana, was official under the first Statute of Autonomy of 1982.

An alternative name for the same region is País Valencià (Valencian) or País Valenciano (Spanish), which translates literally "Valencian Country". This can be seen in the Consell pre-autonòmic del País Valencià, the forerunner of the modern Generalitat Valenciana, and in the preamble to the Statute of Autonomy.

Finally, the term Kingdom of Valencia (Valencian: Regne de València, Spanish: Reino de Valencia) is only rarely used outside of its historical context (1239–1707). The Statute of Autonomy of 2006 makes clear that the Valencian Community is intended to be the successor to the Kingdom of Valencia, at least in terms of foral civil law.

In all cases, the autonomous Valencian Community should be distinguished Physchim62 (talk) 13:25, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
 * on the one hand, from the City of Valencia and the Province of Valencia/València; and
 * on the other hand, from the linguistic community of speakers of the Valencian language, which corresponds to approximately half of the population of the Valencian Community as well as a small group of speakers in Carxe (Murcia).


 * I've read it so fast and I don't have enough time right now, but your suggestion seems to me very well! --PmmolletTalk 16:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I create the Names section with a light intro and linking to the article, Names of the Valencian Community, kindly translated by Dúnadan.
 * Anyway, I agree that this section on the main page should explain briefly the origins, meanings and political points of view intended by the different names used, such as País Valencià, Regne de Valencia and Levante (pro-catalanist, blaverist, and spanish respectively).
 * --Casaforra (parlem-ne) 07:30, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[reset tabs]

The present version looks to me like a good compromise and a real improvement of the article. If the names party is finally closed here like that, then we could hopefully move towards making a better article, once for all. My immediate suggestion in this regard is create and moving the gastronomy and sports sections to their respective own articles, because they are adding a "tourist info" touch in this the main article which I don't think suits it well. Mountolive | Talk 03:28, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Extended article
I think a brief summary of the evolution of the different denominations (names) of the Valencian Community should be included as the first subsection of the article (whether it be named "Etymology of Valencia", or simply "Names of Valencia"). This subsection can then link to the specific article Names of the Valencian Community, a translation I've made (per request) of ca:Denominacions del País Valencià. -- the D únadan 17:49, 29 March 2007 (UTC)