Talk:Valencian dialect

this language does not exists, it is catalan, so it cant have a name under "language". Even a court ruled that Valencian is not a language! -Pedro 00:49, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC) --- I can see no dispute on this talk page, so I am removing the dispute notice. &mdash; Chameleon Main/Talk/Images 06:18, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

lenguas
¿donde se convierte un rio en mar?¿cuando se convirtio el latin en catalan? A veces vemos el momento y nos olvidamos del flujo.... w3djwr(15/9/2004)


 * Please speak english, we are on the english side of Wikipedia. One must be completely blind to not realize that Catalan and Valencian are the same language, like the Spanish spoken in Spain and the one spoken in Argentina are. If we were to go back in history what would we say, that English and German are the same language? That Catalan and French are? We must observe what exists now, not what existed time ago. --xDCDx 17:46, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Inexactly.
Valencian isn't a Catalan dialect. The Catalan language is divided dialectally by Occidental Catalan and Oriental Catalan. Within the Occidental Catalan there are the catalan spoken at the province of Lleida, part of the province of Tarragona, and all of the Valencian Country. As far as whe can speak about "Valencian" is as a dialectal variety of Occidental Catalan not as a Catalan dialect. The real fact is that the Valencian language is a legal denomination used by political reasons to difference with Catalonia in the 80's decade.

But, there are also two thruts: that the denomination of "Valencian" was used more time ago as "Catalan" denomination, and that's used commonly by the valencian society after 20 years from the approval of their Autonomous Estatut. As fact of it, the first European modern novel, Tirant Lo Blanch written by Joanot Martorell at 15th century, in its prologue says that it's written in "Valencian". Now the Valencian society have no doubt of the Catalan language unity, and consider it as a synonymous meaning of "Catalan", and recently the Spanish Government purposed the official recognition in the European Union of the "Catalan-Valencian", a binomial denomination.

So my conclusion is that here must talk about "Valencian" as the same language of "Catalan", not as a rigorous scientist study about the a dialect of Catalan --Martorell 18:48, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * I am from Valencia and I completely agree with you, but you made two mistakes in your reasoning.


 * Unfortunately, the right-wing part of the Valencian society auto blinds itself and says that Valencian is a completely different language from Catalan: that's what Francisco Camps, the current President of the Generelatitat Valenciana (of the Partido Popular) says and what almost all of his voters think. People who say and think this usually hate Catalonia for no reason, and either are Spanish nationalists or Valencian nationalists, and prefer to associate with Madrid rather than with Catalonia.


 * The second error is about the Spanish Goverment. PSOE's official posture is of course regarding Valencian and Catalan as the same thing, but the current foreign minister, in his letter to the European Union, named the official recognition of Euskera, Galician, Catalan and Valencian. This was immediatly disputed by parties that respald the unity of Catalan, and congratulated by parties that argue that Valencian and Catalan are different languages. The Spanish Goverment aknowledged this as an error and is trying to solve it via a consensus, but that will be hard due to radical postures of the Valencian Goverment. --xDCDx 19:09, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Salut company!!! I'm not sure about the possition of the Partido Popular. There is, in the Valencian Country, a governamental organism called Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua which has the same objetives that the Institut d'Estudis Catalans. Both are lingüistical academies to make a normative on Catalan Language, and the valencian academy already made actions in the line of the Catalan language unity from three years ago, and its academy was created by the own Partido Popular.


 * And about the PSOE possition, it's clear that it's was a legal stupidity of the Foreign Minister, who doesn't knows the linguistic reality, but the last today news ("La Vanguardia", TV3, Tele5, etc...) said that PSOE has reached an agreement with the valencian branch of the PSOE and all the left-wing valencian parties, CiU, and ERC, to use this binomial denomination. --Martorell 19:24, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * I don't see what your point about Valencian being part of Western Catalan is. How does that make it not a dialect?  Are you saying it is a sub-dialect?  Do you want to rename the article to Valencian sub-dialect?  Perhaps Valencian sub-sub-dialect?  I think that would be taking things too far.  I think Valencian regionalists would take that as an insult.  Or do you want to deny any different between Valencian and Central Catalan, preferring to make Valencian a redirect to Catalan language?  That too would be to go too far, obscuring differences and censoring information.  Or would you like to see Catalan-Valencian language?  That would be an insult to people in the Balearics.


 * Wasn't there some "BaCaVan" neologism? -- Error 03:41, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Valencian is part of the wider Catalan language, just as Majorcan is, and the dialects of Roussillon and the Aragonese Fringe, as well as the local peculiarities of Barcelona. To say something is in Valencian is to say it in Catalan, with the local features of the Valencian Community.  I am from London, where we have a dialect called Cockney.  To speak Cockney is to speak English, with the local features of London.  I can say "use your loaf!" or "use your brain!", using local or general forms.  A Catalan-speaker can say anem a vore or anem a veure, using local or general forms.


 * I believe this article as it stands reflects reality. Chameleon 19:51, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * I am confused now about Partido Popular's position about Valencian, maybe they hold a different opinion each time you ask them, and only want to disrupt relationships between Valencia and Catalonia.


 * Chamaleon, congrats, your latest edits add quite objetive and relevant information. Let's not harshly argue about the name of the article, I think Martorell was just commenting that the name of the article is not completely correct, but maybe you are right and nothing better that Valencian dialect can be chosen. --xDCDx 01:27, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * I'm agree witn xDCDx about the quality of the work done by Chamaleon. But perhaps the article must be named only as Valencian, because this isn't only a linguistical denomination of a variety (or dialect, or sub-dialect, or subsubsubsub-dialect, hehe), it's also an historical, legal, and social denomination. And, it would be too complicated if the article is named "Valencian dialect and historical, legal, social denomination". It would be simply as "Valencian" and in its content we would explain all necessary. Same as Cockney, where it isn't named Cockney dialect.


 * Cockneys are people too. -- Error 03:41, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Ah! And I've added more info, but my english is a bit poor. Could anyone make any revision of the text I've added, please?? --Martorell 07:36, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * I'm agree that the better should be Valencian only, but this is not the usual choose of the English Wikipedia. If you think that heare there are problems don't visit the Spanish version of the article. We have to correct lots of times the article from a Spanish nacionalist vandal. Llull 13:50, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * "Valencian" is the term that represents the Valencian modality of the same language spoken in Catalonia and the Balearic Islands. The debate is far from over and the representation here far from truthful. Evidently you are Pan-Catalonian, and evidently I am not. It is also evident that I am not a Spanish nationalist or a Valencian nationalist. The truth here is that the "Truth" is not being respected. As for Chameleon, your Cockney analogy falls flat on its face. You are discussing a sociolect, a lexicon used by a very specific socioeconomic class within a larger urban infrastructure. "Loaf" is a word that exists in Standard English that happens to acquire a different meaning when used by Cockneys. Yet "vore" and "veure" mean the same thing, with no other manifestations (in the style of "loaf"), yet are not written the same way. Consider "voler" in this same language and "volere" in Italian--what do we have? The TRUTH of the matter is that the Spanish government's haphazard, slipshod patchwork of explaining the latest UE controversy ("the language known as Catalan in Catalonia and known as Valencian in Valencia") is a gross oversimplification. Do consider this much more accurate statement: the language shared by Catalonia, Valencia and the Balearic islands is indeed the same, yet plural in its nature, and thus presents varying modalities: the modality proper to Catalonia is named Catalan, the modality proper to Valencia is named Valencian, the modality proper to Majorca is named Majorcan, Minorca Minorcan, etc etc". Unfortunately the matter is more complicated as there is a particular modality that is proper to one region that falls in two separate political borders: Tortosa and Northern Castellon are its own modality. Latinoeuropa 2:41, Feb 2005 (UTC)