Talk:Vampire: The Masquerade

Bad redirection
How does one avoid erroneous redirection? I wanted to enable a possible link from the Maasai to the Laibon, the healer shamans of this ethnic group, but it ended up here... --Xact (talk) 20:18, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Editwar under Concept
A seemingly well-meaning editor has replaced a conservative screed with a counterargument instead of reverting to a more neutral version. The most recent neutral version was from August 9, but I can't figure out how revert to it. JDspeeder1 (talk) 01:51, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Antediluvians
I have a bit of an issue with the listing of the Antediluvians in the clan section. For one thing, it could be considered a bit of a spoiler and I don't feel it's information that belongs on the main V:tM article. Shouldn't we be sticking to the core book instead of combing supplements for the true names of the antediluvians and every obscure bloodline? For another, I haven't even heard of some of these guys and I've been keeping up with Vampire for several years now. So I checked Gehenna, specifically the "official" list at the end of the Introduction, and found no reference to Ilyes, Laro Somi Barra or Mekneth. While I could have missed something in the Brujah or Lasombra clanbooks, Clanbook: Tzimisce purposely avoids giving any name to the founder. Veddartha and Dacian are also absent from the list of "canon" antediluvians, though I recall those names at least being tossed about in suppliments at some point. Essentially my complaint is that a) some of this stuff is unsupported and does not exist in published sources to the best of my knowledge, and b) the clan proginators and the list of bloodlines are unusually specific for this page - it's similar in principle to including a complete list of the saints on Christianity. --70.161.56.58 05:14, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Bloodline info
Some of the bloodlines information is just flat wrong and even more is supposition that wasn't actually printed anywhere. It should be removed or re-done.


 * The biggest thing that should be deleted (or at least explained) is the reference to the Sons of Discord. The Sons of Discord have never actually appeared.  They were a fan creation, and one or two books (mostly LARP supplements, which aren't considered canon) contain references only to their destruction.  This might be just me, but I really don't think they should be mentioned in the article.--MythicFox 11:10, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * MET books are canon for MET games. However, beyond the one book they're mentioned in for MET, they're never mentioned anywhere else.  They were adapted for MET use, but not tabletop.  But, this would have to begin a discussion about "what is canon" and what's considered canon, and who decides what canon is, which has been a long-running debate/discussion/argument/flame war on the White Wolf forums.  --Amokk 12:01, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Game system
I am not very familiar with the gameplay mechanics of Vampire:Masquerade and games like it, but I do believe they are more extemporaneous story telling and less rule focused.

I would like to see someone with game knowledge discuss the mechanics.

I can only try my best. - Suriyawong, August 8, 2004.


 * I'm more than a little familiar with the White Wolf games, I'll try and cook something up soon. Any suggestions? gifkip 22:53, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * I've made up my own "starter kit" before for new players, so I could add information from that. I'm not so sure about the legality of posting game rules online, though, even the basic ones I've covered. --Vyran 28 June 2005 20:27 (UTC)


 * Game rules aren't relevant here, they'd be more appropriate at Storyteller system. --Goblin &rsaquo;talk 29 June 2005 06:39 (UTC)


 * I believe that mentioning the differences of the original Storytelling system (as part of V:TM) and the current Storyteller system described in its own Wiki is useful; especially considering how different they are. --JohnGallantLewis 11 August 2014 13:20 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnGallantLewis (talk • contribs)

Template:Fictional Setting
I'm not sure the template Fictional Setting is useful. See Template talk:Fictional Setting for the discussion I've tried to create on this point. &mdash; OwenBlacker 19:23, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)

bloodlines
I think the fact that the Daughters of Cacophony keep getting changed every other day suggests that "Debated" is the best answer for their parent clan. --Amokk 19:07, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Rod Ferrell
Can someone put a link to Rod Ferrell? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 06:45, 2006 October 31 (talk • contribs) 216.243.132.205.

Moving Clan Descriptions
I moved the clan/bloodline/founder page to the WoD clans page as they really belong there and are full of spoilers. Tried to clean up the look of the page a little. Hopefully it all went well. Cameronmurtagh 11:11, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Concept and Moral Play POV
"Many maintain that the game's "moral play" aspects have been overlooked or discarded in favor of an action-horror style of play, especially facilitated by the strange, dreadful and dangerous powers of Disciplines."

The additions by 209.63.2.253 are all right, except the "many say" part and such are POV without any evidence supporting it. Many could be "my 3 friends and I" but that doesn't belong on wikipedia. --Amokk 22:03, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

People interested in / contributing to World of Darkness articles
People interested in / contributing to World of Darkness articles please add to the current debate; Articles for deletion/Ravnos regarding the page Ravnos concerning the Vampire: The Masquerade clan being nominated for deletion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.190.34.219 (talk) 23:32, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Merge Methuselah (World of Darkness) proposal
Target article is subject of AfD discussion (Articles_for_deletion/Methuselah_(World_of_Darkness)). Probably better served to be here? Vulture19 (talk) 01:54, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Japanese link
The Japanese link went to a minor sourcebook's page (It was for Kindred of the Ebony Kingdom). Japanese Wikipedia DOES have a page for World of Darkness which covers VTM, but because it's already linked to on the WoD page, I can't make it link there. I saw no place to note that when removing the link, so I'll note it here. --68.202.59.244 (talk) 06:24, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Mergings
Most of the clan-articles were emptied with the message "see Talk:Clans and Bloodlines in Vampire: The Masquerade" and redirected here. Others had "NN, primary sources only, redirect to parent", "redirect page as it's all in-universe material with no secondary sources to show notability (seems like some OR too, and opinion,etc)" and "Given the mass deletions, I'd say consensus is for removing these articles. Redirecting as such." by users: Seraphimblade, Craw-daddy and The Millionth One.

As the whole thing seems left unfinished and the above page deleted, perhaps either one of the users could shed some light; why does WoD vampire clans still exist with so many redirects, along with the article on Malkavians, although it's got the notability-template on it? Why were the clans not merged into a single page as like Masquerade society for the sects or the one on Clans and Bloodlines in Vampire: The Requiem - are those not as (un)notable as the "old" clans? But perhaps that was the Clans and Bloodlines in Vampire: The Masquerade mentioned in Articles for deletion/Clan (World of Darkness), which I suppose was deleted along with the others in Articles for deletion/Gargoyles (World of Darkness)? And lastly, the reason for the article Black Hand (World of Darkness) not being merged into the society one as with Tal'mahe'Ra. Thanks in advance. TherasTaneel (talk) 02:28, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * As I recall, it's been a couple of years after all and memory can be selective, my original intent was just to merge/redirect all the individual clan pages (none of them showed notability, most major concern), remove the redundant Clan (World of Darkness) page, and then look into the bigger clan collections. Midway through that, a larger AfD for most of the Masquerade pages were made -- I don't think the AfD-nominator was as familiar with the Requiem articles, and I wasn't familiar with Requiem itself (still aren't, though I've paid more and more heed to the New World of Darkness itself).
 * After the pages were deleted, I redirected all the other Masquerade clan pages/related I saw, as they all suffered from pretty much the same issues and seemed only not included in the AfD by being out of the way.
 * The template is moreorless around because I forgot to nominate it for deletion after taking an axe to virtually all of its contents. I was, at the time of all this, Bellum Stellarum, which just wasn't a classy enough name for one such as myself. The Malkavian page was restored later, by another user. – The Millionth One (talk) (contribs) 12:34, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I see - so are relevant pages going to be nominated, merged and templates like WoD vampire updated by some project or other, or are random editors supposed to do the follow-up? TherasTaneel (talk) 22:44, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll nominate WoD vampire clans for deletion, and update/merge what I see. Since I did take an axe to a lot of the content, it's probably fair if I take the effort to try and fix any holes or inconsistencies that occur as a result, though I can't promise not to miss anything.
 * I'll probably redirect Malkavian -- if there was a Masquerade clan that could get its own page, my gut instinct says it'd be them (I see them given a fair amount of attention, and some division there), but I couldn't find anything to really help build the page the last time I looked, and I haven't seen anyone else find anything. Admittedly, I'm not very good at finding tabletop sources, since there's a lot less online compared to, say, video games. Black Hand will almost certainly be merged. – The Millionth One (talk) (contribs) 23:33, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Please have a look to Character race
Hello,

who seem to be main contributors of this article, but also to anyone interested in:

In the article Character race, I mentionned Vampire: The Masquerade because it seems to have changed the way races were handeled in tabletop RPGs. Especially, with VTM, the race is not only a flavour or a list of capabilities, but the real core of the plot.

However, I never player VTM, so I would like some "specialists" to have a look at this assertion.

Regards

cdang| write me 08:26, 18 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Character race is a funny thing in oWoD that doesn't map neatly from earlier games (eg D&D) however the description in the article seems accurate to me. Vampire: The Masquerade is a game I know very well. If one is playing Vampire everyone is playing a vampire (or something vampire related). Same went with the other supernatural templates. They all had insular worlds that didn't get on well with the other insular worlds. It was possible to play a game with the various races as they all used the same system but they were designed to be played separately.Sugarcoma (talk) 23:55, 31 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Just to be clear here, there are no real races in WoD games (barring werewolf, where you can be human or wolf born, or metis which is full werewolf, kinda). Everyone plays a human with a template on top of them (some other exceptions exist, but that is certainly true of the main games). Vampire, ghoul, werewolf, kinfolk, faerie, mummy, were-raven/bear/crocodile, mages, ghosts all exist in the same setting and do interact at various levels, but not generally in positive ways. For one thing no one gets along with anyone else, politically or spiritually, for another the balancing is way off. A new werewolf can murder a coterie of vampires, an elder vampire can slaughter a pack of veteran werewolves, a mage with time can erase anything from existence and kind of do whatever he wants. People certainly have played campaigns with mixed groups like that however, it tends to take a lot of effort in storytelling to get a werewolf to have a reason to work with a vampire when they believe on a deep spiritual level (the same level that gives them their magic and shapeshifting, they have fairly concrete evidence of their religion, even if they interpret it wrong at times) that vampires are spiritual servants of the Devil that wants to destroy everything about them and Gaia (and their whole thing is to defend Gaia). Werewolves have wiped out several other were creatures in the setting because of misunderstandings of their place in the world (believing werebats to be evil for instance, which is also why they don’t get along with any other werewhatevers, except wereravens, grudgingly). Inter-tribal conflict is already a fairly big thing in WoD. Still, there is always at least one group that has some kind of connections, Gangrel are percieved to be able to get along with whatever weres, Tremere ARE former mages, there are various sorcerer types that are interested in whatever group, there are a type of faerie vampires and the Fianna (Irish werewolves) are friendlyish (while not trusting them and thinking they are kinda crazy) with faeries. Uktena (a Native American werewolf tribe) have internal organizations that interact with vampires and mages (with differing degrees of violence, and both magic and tech mages), Glasswalkers (techy werewolves) willingly interact with said Uktena and tech mages. Everybody has some necromancer wraith types. So possibilities exist, depends on the groups. Spells meant to interact with the undead generally specifically mention how they interact with Wraiths if that is relevant, similarly for other relevant groups, so mechanics are already setup and little work needs to be done. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.127.152.5 (talk) 05:58, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Merge
I'm nominating Masquerade_society to be merged with this page. Masquerade_society's content is excessive and only of interest to a small portion of the RPG fanbase. This content would be better served as a summary in the maine V:tM page.Sugarcoma (talk) 22:43, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Page Issues
I've attempted to address some of the issues on this page:
 * Additional citations for verification. (October 2012) - Before my draft of this page the article didn't even ref the original source book. I've added numerous sources. I think this can be removed now. I'll remove it in a month unless anyon objects.
 * Improper references to self-published sources. (October 2012) - I think these were cleaned up prior to me touching the page. I'll remove it unless anyone objects.
 * Written like a personal reflection or opinion essay that states the Wikipedia editor's particular feelings about a topic, rather than the opinions of experts. (August 2011) - I think this was also already addressed. Unless anyone objects I'm going to remove it.Sugarcoma (talk) 22:49, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Proposed restructuring
If people don't object, prior to the 5th edition coming out I intend to restructure this article, putting some of the more "enclyclopedia-friendly" info about the history of the game and its importance, near the top of the article, and the more "gamer-friendly" info about WoD mechanics and milieu later into the article. This is part of a general project I'd like to do on the articles for White Wolf games, which are highly variable in their quality and encyclopedia-friendliness. Does anyone have objections or advice, or even (shudder :P) would like to help? Newimpartial (talk) 15:05, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Category:Role-playing game systems
Is there a particular reason why this page (or any of the other WOD games pages) is not included in the Category:Role-playing game systems?--66.235.23.229 (talk) 00:23, 21 February 2019 (UTC) (The above was me, not yet signed in. Sorry.) --Ashareem (talk) 00:24, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Controversy
There was a fair bit of controversy around various elements of the WoD stuff before that should probably be mentioned (although not all of it directly applies to VtM, some of the Gypsy stuff certainly does). However, 5th Edition itself has been so controversial it actually destroyed White Wolf as a publishing company so that their current owners (Paradox) has removed most (if not all of the management) and restructured them to be solely existing to license their IP out. Chiefly this is related to the 5th’s framing of the ongoing, real-life, issue of the Chechnyan government murdering homosexual citizens as part of a vampire thing (this from the same people that had previously decided to not make 9/11 part of the plot). Paradox had press releases and things, they have stated all future publishing will be done by Morphius and Onyx Path, this should be mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.127.152.5 (talk) 05:30, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Kickstarter
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/horribleguild/vampire-the-masquerade-vendetta?ref=a9ip21 Presumably this is connected? Jellinator (talk)

Personal horror
What is this personal horror that is listed as the genre in several WoD articles? It seems to be unreferenced in every case I've seen. Is it a term coined by White Wolf? Mika1h (talk) 14:17, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I haven't tackled this article (yet??) because it's such a big undertaking, but my understanding is that White Wolf used it to mean that the source of the horror is internal (ie the loss of control of your character, as they have to do horrible things). Does need sourcing, yes.--AlexandraIDV 14:33, 27 June 2024 (UTC)