Talk:Vanderbilt University Law School/Archive 1

Overall Profile
I pretty much expanded the entirety of the profile---removed the Student Life section and consolidated it with "Culture" to have the profile reflect Stanford, Yale, and Harvard's profile sites. Feel free (obv) to edit, retract, or add any info...7/17/08  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.231.30.3 (talk) 03:46, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Notable? Faculty
I don't recognize any of those names, no links, no descriptions about what makes those particular faculty members notable. I would vote to delete those names that don't have descriptions in the next week.--Gopple 16:32, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I'll try to link to the faculty profiles - all have published in leading academic journals and are well known in their fields.

There is *maybe* one notable faculty member of the group. The fact that most of the full-time faculty of the school is listed here shows that they are not particularly notable. That they're professors doesn't not automatically make them 'notable faculty.' I'll wait a week and then, unless they have some sort of link or added information showing more than they teach a subject, I'll delete all but the ones that I can find to be notable. --Gopple 22:47, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Justin P. Wilson
Justin P. Wilson is not a notable faculty member. He has never published anything in a leading academic journal. He is a well respected practitioner. Leave it at that.
 * I agree. I assume the qualifications listed as "World renown teaching skills" and "command of the English language" were meant as a joke. --Gopple 13:48, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
 * This was not meant as a joke at all. Saying a member of a faculty is notable only because of publicatons perpetuates the flawed incentive stucture by which educational institutions prefer mediocre teachers who publish profusely. Wilson is a fantastic teacher. That, combined with his prominence in Tennessee makes him extremely notable as a faculty member. And, yes, I think that he has an excellent command of the english language and its many colorful colloquialisms. DO NOT DELETE HIM!!! Justinpwilsonadvocate 16:06, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
 * As to the last few reverts about JPW, I haven't been involved. My only question would be whether any other schools include adjunct professors in their lists of notable faculty? JPWilsonAdvocate, are there others? --Gopple 01:39, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * From what I can tell, Harvard doesn't. Hard to tell, though, since there are only 2 adjunct professors. EVula 05:56, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Notability standards in WP:BIO
Regarding the inclusion of Justin Wilson; WP:BIO states Political figures holding international, national or statewide/provincewide office or members of a national, state or provincial legislature.  I'm not convinced that "statewide office" is intended to mean "anyone working for the office of the governor." I can't find a single article about a deputy governor from any US state (where deputy governor was their highest position). Note that "deputy governor" is not even mentioned on the Tennessee governor's website. If you created an article about Justin Wilson, I doubt it would survive an AFD. OhNo itsJamie Talk 17:36, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


 * WP:BIO isn't applicable here; WP:PROF is. EVula 18:14, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's that straightforward. WP:PROF and WP:BIO are both subdivions of WP:Notability. The argument for Wilson's inclusion here was based on his former deputy governor job, which is why I quote WP:BIO. It would be similar to mentioning Spike Lee as a notable professor at New York University, in that he has strong notability independent of the WP:PROF test.  Regarding Wilson, I think he has much less of a chance of passing WP:PROF, which is why I brought up WP:BIO. OhNo itsJamie Talk 18:40, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Seems like he is a big enough deal in TN to have a state park named after him -- . I also happen to know that he is the only living person to ever have a TN state park named after him, although after a quick check I cannot find a cite for this. As for general notability, aside from being deputy governor (I found plenty of google hits when i typed in "justin p wilson deputy governor", Wilson has held several other high level positions in state government. He was also nominated by George HW Bush to serve on the US Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals. If Justin P. Wilson is not "notable" it is hard to see how any apppointed state official could ever be considered notable, given his long career in high appointive offices in the state. It seems pretty clear to me that if someone with such a high profile career in law and public policy is even an adjunct faculty member of an institution, that person is at least arguably a notable faculty member. What is even clearer is that Wilson is among Vandy Law's leading alumni and should remain on the notable alumni list. Justinpwilsonadvocate 19:15, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I understand what you're getting at with BIO; however, as far as I can tell, it covers full-blown articles about people. We are, in essence, debating over whether or not Wilson should merely be listed as a notable alumni. Regardless of my disagreements with Advocate, I think Wilson should at least be listed there; the fact that he has a freakin' park named after him should count for at least something (though it isn't covered in BIO). EVula 20:03, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll concede that the sum of the notability claims is sufficient for his inclusion in the article, but only because it sounds like a cool park ;) OhNo itsJamie Talk 21:32, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * OK. We've worked out that he is a notable alum. Now we must find consensus as to whether he is also notable faculty. I say yes -- when a school has a professor who is as prominent in a state as Wilson is in Tennessee (as evidenced above), that professor is notable faculty. Professors can be notable for reasons other than the articles they have written or their intellectual contributions. Justinpwilsonadvocate 22:00, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

J. Ashley Ebersole status
User:129.59.135.52 and I have gone back and forth about J. Ashley Ebersole's status as a notable faculty member.

As of right now, I have zero evidence that he's on the faculty:


 * the VU People Finder doesn't list anyone under "Ebersole" (student or faculty).
 * the Law School website doesn't list any entry for Ebersole as being on the Faculty. There was nothing in the News box (which was last updated today, 4-21), and there was nothing on the following Faculty pages: Faculty Profiles, Visiting Faculty, Faculty Emeriti, Affiliated Faculty, Legal Writing Instructors, Administration).

Evidence that he's a student (or, at best, a recently graduated one):


 * He is mentioned on the Law School Photos page (search for "Joseph Ashley Ebersole is ready to meet with..." on the page)
 * Article about him in the most recent InBrief, insinuating his status as a student

I've emailed my contact at the Law School to find out what's what. If she can verify that he's on the faculty or someone else can verify that he's now on the faculty, I'll stand down from removing his listing. I'm not trying to be a dick, just noting that there's no evidence. EVula 22:20, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

You've proved your own point. If there's nothing to show that he's notable, then he's not notable. Remove. &rArr;   SWAT Jester    Ready    Aim    Fire!  22:32, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Hah! I got so wrapped up in just proving or disproving his status as a faculty member that I completely ignored that part. Whoops! :) EVula 22:36, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * yeah, yeah, yeah....you guys have no idea what you're talking about. Ebersole co-taught fed courts this semester. 129.59.135.52 22:37, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia articles must meet a standard of verifiability to be included. Unfortunately, since Ebersole cannot be verified as an actual faculty member, and furthermore not a notable one at that, he cannot be included. &rArr;    SWAT Jester    Ready    Aim    Fire!  22:43, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Provide evidence that he did, and I'll believe you. My Law School contact is probably gone for the day, but even if she verifies that Ebersole is a professor, he still isn't notable (yet). EVula 22:48, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * We'll just wait to see what your "law school contact" has to say, hot shot. 129.59.135.52 22:58, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * There's no need to take this personally; I'm not assaulting you (at this point I'm willing to assume you're Ebersole, especially given your IP). I'm merely trying to ascertain the truth; if you're right, great! I'll be more than willing to undo my edit on the Sherry article (though you'll still need to prove notability before Ebersole can be mentioned under that particular heading). EVula 23:02, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Heh, I never followed up with this. I've found that Ebersole is not a professor. EVula 19:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * do you have a reference for this assertion? several of my friends were in professor ebersole's class last semester and several others were in one of the classes he team taught (one with professor sherry, one with professor brandon). Justinpwilsonadvocate 20:40, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * ...bloody hell, not this again."Some of my friends" isn't a verifiable source. I provided ten links above to back up my claims; one of those is no longer relevant (a picture of him is no longer on the Vandy Law photo page), and the Vandy People Finder now has someone listed under "Ebersole" (a female on the Medical side), but there is an article he wrote while a student.


 * I'm not claiming that he never "team taught" at the Law School, I'm merely claiming that he has not been hired by the Vanderbilt University Law School as a professor. Even if the Law website was out of date, the People Finder wouldn't be. EVula 21:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I didn't realize that non-students had full access to people finder. Moreover, I just checked and none of the adjunct law professors were listed on the people finder. And the category is "notable faculty", not "hired by the law school as a professor" -- I surely think that a person who team teaches two large classes is a member of the faculty, at least on an adjunct basis. Justinpwilsonadvocate 21:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmm, that's an interesting note about the adjunct faculty; I hadn't considered that before, so I concede on that particular front (however, there's still no evidence, aside from your assertion, that he is actually an adjunct faculty member). As for the category being "notable faculty" and not "hired as a professor", you're right; that said, notability has yet to be established. EVula 21:31, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Good point. In keeping with its spirit I just purged the article of all profs for whom no notability rationale was provided. Justinpwilsonadvocate 21:35, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I reverted, under the concept of Don't disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point. The faculty members all have several written pieces under their belts (as evidenced by the lists of such on each faculty member's profile page on the Vandy Law website), which (to me, at least) is enough notability to warrant reverting your fairly childish edit. I also recommend you read WP:DICK. EVula 22:12, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I have changed the name of the disputed section in the hope that it will settle our dispute. It should be noted that both of us are on the cusp of breaking the 3 revert rule. EVula 22:21, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I reverted your title change, for reasons I explained (profs must be notable to be lsited in the first place). Also, if you know of a source that establishes notavbility, please lik to it. Moreover, several articles are not enough to make a prof notable, otherwise all profs would be notable because writign articles is what profs do. Justinpwilsonadvocate 22:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Notability (academics). It should be noted that almost every single professor that you've removed is qualified Notable under example #8 (I haven't bothered to double-check yet, which is why I'm not making any edits).


 * You are now at 3 reverts. I will hit 3 when I verify notability on the professors you've removed and restore them to the article. After that, either of us can be blocked by an administrator. EVula 22:37, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, as for "who is to say ebersole would not be among 'select faculty'?", we've already established that there is no verifiable evidence that Ebersole is a faculty member in any way. Hence, he wasn't on the list. EVula 22:39, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I just looked at those guidelines and they seem to get at exceptionality among professors. This does not mean every professor is notable, which you seem to imply by asserting the notability of this random list of profs. Justinpwilsonadvocate 22:41, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't mean to be rude, but I didn't understand that at all. Its Wikipedia's guideline for establishing the notability of academics; what's the confusion? Also, this isn't some "random list of profs", its a list of notable professors at the school we're discussing. I'm not claiming that every professor should have an article, I'm just trying to establish that this particular list deserves to exist, which you apparently disagree with simply because I disagree with you over the Ebersole issue. EVula 22:48, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * My point is that there was no method to selecting these profs. Look at the faculty bios: it is hard to say that the average prof that was listed was more notable than the average prof not listed. Somehow it seems difficult for me to believe that, if in fact the notability guidelines for academics mean anything at all, one insitution would end up with a list of much more than 5 professors. Any professor at a decent school has written some articles and won some awards. Notability should mean more so that wikipedia doesn't turn into simply a list of every professor everywhere. Justinpwilsonadvocate 23:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * That notability page covers more than just "Mr. X has printed 15 papers". I suggest you re-read it (example 8, which I noted above, states "Receiving full professorship at a prestigious university, or receiving a named professorship at a reputable university, may be considered an award or honor under criterion 7"). Also, if you're unhappy with the guideline, feel free to suggest changes to it on the article's Talk page.
 * In fact I have read the notability page and have been referring (ablbeit not specifically -- my bad) to the criteria you mention. Not every person named on that list is a full professor. Even fewer have named professorships. Justinpwilsonadvocate 13:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * As an aside, I'd like to point out that I'm going semi-crazy with all these colons. :) EVula 23:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * While I'm on board with the Ebersole mess (i.e. no way he's on, he was a student last year?), I would propose as a compromise that any professor that you place up on the list be acknowledged (in parentheses) as the F. Scott Peterman Chair or whatever their distinction is and link them to something (a wikipedia entry, a law school bio) -- "Contracts Professor" isn't a great mark of distinction. I'm assuming you go to Vanderbilt Law and have a certain affection for some of these professors. I would only request that you look at the other Law School pages that deal with professor lists and see that those they include (past and present professors) actually serves a purpose for the wikipedia entry. --Gopple 00:05, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm all for that idea, provided that Justinpwilsonadvocate doesn't revert my edits. I'm trying very hard to assume good faith, but considering the fact that he's reverted my edits (not to mention the fact that he's passively insulted me), I'm finding it difficult. I've completely ignored this topic since yesterday afternoon just to make sure I could edit with a cool head. If we can stop bickering and work towards a better article, I'm all for it. EVula 04:35, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I also support this compromise. As you see above, some sort of references / information establishing notability is what I have been lookign for all along. Justinpwilsonadvocate 18:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * If anyone needs verification, please contact me. My name is Jason Hunt and I work in the Admistrative Office at the Law School. You can reach me via email at the Law School/University.

--129.59.110.132 15:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)Jason Hunt, Admin. Coord. VULS

Blackacre
'''I have deleted the reference to Blackacres because it was inaccurate. Blackacres do not occur every week (they may occur every other week or as infrequently as once a month -- the schedule depends on which student organizations choose to sponsor them and when they choose to do that), they do not always feature kegs of beer (what they feature depends on what the sponsoring organization serves, which runs the gamut from snacks and soft drinks to a buffet dinner), and between 50 and 100 students in a law school of 630 students typically come to these events. 'Vandyguy's' contention that these are a notable fact about Vanderbilt Law School is simply incorrect. - vandywoman, 26 February 2008'''

The Friday afternoon Blackacres are a central part of student life at Vandy Law. As such, they are notable and should be retained as part of this article. Vandyguy 13:45, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * "Blackacre" is not the name of the event, it is the name of the location. The way it is phrased makes it sound like its some rowdy fratboy kegger; considering the fact that your first edit on Wikipedia was to insinuate that the student population is just a bunch of drunken hooligans, I have very little regard for your repeated mentions of the Friday "happy hour" concept. Furthermore, the link you gave (which was apparently presented as evidence, so I'll treat it as such) doesn't have anything to do with the concept; if there's something on that site that you are trying to cite, link directly to it, not the overall page. EVula 14:54, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I am a student at the law school and I can assure you that both the event and the location are called "Blackacre" (which is also evidenced by my source; more evidence is provided by this link, which refers to a "Class Gift Blackacre"). This weekly event is very frequently given as an example of the collegial student lifestyle at Vandy Law. As for my link, if you bother to scroll down, you will see discussion of this event as blackacre. Please do not be so quick to judge. Maybe my first contribution was silly, but I followed it up with information about an actual, important component of Vandy Law's social life. Yes, a law school can have a social scene (and Vandy Law is known for having a great one) and yes, if this scene is part of a law school's identity it is worh noting on wikipedia. Vandyguy 15:04, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey, if you've got evidence, great, I withdraw my disagreement with you. The mention of Blackacre on the site didn't necessarily distinguish that the name of the event itself was Blackacre (the quotes around it are mildly ambiguous). I apologize for dismissing your later contributions out of hand, but I still stand by my edits in their context.


 * Also, I did a bit of copy-editing to the paragraph. I removed the bit about "scroll down" on the first link (since that was, effectively, a note to me); same story with the second link. I also removed the line about the beer since, for whatever reason, its mention is just a bit jarring; I don't know why, but it just bugs me. :) I'd love to see it expanded a bit more, citing a variety of event types (the second link mentioned a "Class Gift Blackacre"); if that is put in there, throwing in a line about what is served at the events wouldn't be quite so random a mention. EVula 15:31, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Sounds good. Unfortunately, there is not much more on the web about blackacre, so talking about the different themes and sponsors of the event would be difficult (though I agree that this would be interesting info). Maybe when school starts again I will take a photo to prove that the keg is a central feature of these events. I didn't mention the keg to be funny. Rather, I think the keg reinforces the nice informality of Blackacre (and of the law school itself)...Nothing says collegiality more than your professors pouring themselves plastic cups of bud light from a keg. Vandyguy 15:39, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Notable alumni and faculty...
There is some disagreement regarding the notable alumni and faculty sections, and I wanted to solicit the opinions of other editors. As per my discussion with SwatJester:

1. SwatJester deleted Bill Samuels, Jr., the President of Makers' Mark, from the list of notable alumni because he was linked to, but did not have, a Wikipedia article. Because, however, Makers' Mark is a major company (that does have a Wikipedia article), it seems to me that Samuels is at least as notable as Robert Hays, Jim Neal, Jody Wagner, and Justin Wilson. Thus, I posit that either he should be reinstated or they should be removed.

2. Al Gore is an alumnus of Vanderbilt Law and should be listed as such (although his description should note that he did not graduate).

3. The notable faculty listing contains a bevy of "leading X" and "leading Y" claims, all supported only by links to Vanderbilt's promotional website. Because Vanderbilt's website is not independent or peer-reviewed, I contend that those claims should either be referenced or edited. (Depending upon which of those claims persist, some of the faculty may not be notable, in my opinion, although SwatJester has suggested to me that major law school's faculty are almost always notable. Regardless of that, the individual claims made regarding the faculty need support.)

Cka3n 13:12, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Graduate school?
Why does the opening sentence refer to the school as a "graduate school"? Aren't law schools usually considered professional schools, offering what is technically an undergraduate degree? Does Vanderbilt refer to itself as a graduate school? --Padraic 21:31, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Not sure about law schools elsewhere, but law schools in the US only offer graduate-level degrees. That is, they're only offered to students who have already completed undergraduate study somewhere else. Yes, it's a professional school, in the sense that it's offering a degree geared toward professional practice (rather than academia), but it's not a undergraduate degree. Esrever (klaT) 03:47, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

recent changes
I edited this profile on 10-12-10 following the death of Richard Nagareda on 10-8-10; he was listed as the head of the law school's Litigation & Dispute Resolution Program, which he was until his death. I also removed a sentence about social events that was incorrect and irrelevent. On any given week during the academic year, 10 to 20 academic events, including lectures, roundtables, panel discussions and conferences, as well as numerous student organization meetings and events, occur at Vanderbilt Law School. Friday social events in the law school's central courtyard, Blackacre, are occasionally sponsored by student organizations; they do not occur every week, and are certainly not worthy of an encyclopedia mention. It also appears that someone has attempted to insert false information on this profile at some point; Ashley Ebersole has never served on Vanderbilt's law faculty. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grenshaw (talk • contribs)

Notable people section
I was working on citing sources in this section and noticed Dorsey B. Hardeman did not have a Wikipedia article so I am wondering if he should be removed from this section. I know for the notable people section of towns/cities, a person must have their own Wikipedia article to establish notability, and I wondered if the same was true for notable alumni sections? Thanks!--BuzyBody (talk) 03:06, 26 February 2013 (UTC)