Talk:Vanity Fair (novel)

Cover
It'd be better the have a facsimile of the original title page than a modern book cover. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.49.248 (talk • contribs) 17:09, 13 July 2005
 * ✅ — Llywelyn II   04:40, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Sharing the letter I've referenced

 * "my object...is to indicate, in cheerful terms, that we are for the most part an abominably foolish and selfish people 'desperately wicked' and all eager vanities. Everybody is you see in that book,--for instance if I had made Amelia a higher order of woman there would have been no vanity Dobbins falling in love with her." ... "I want to leave everybody dissatisfied and unhappy at the end of the story--we ought all to be with our own and all other stories.  Good God don't I see (in that maybe cracked and warped looking glass in which I am always looking) my own weaknesses wickednesses lusts follies shortcomings?...We must lift up our voices about these and howl to a congregation of fools: so much at least has been my endeavour." WLM

I've typed this out in the interests of allowing others to review my new section. Lotsofissues 08:56, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Um... Thanks (?) but it'd be better to have a link or citation so that we could fix the obvious mistakes you introduced into (at minimum) the grammar of those sentences. — Llywelyn II   04:42, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Where are all my favorite characters?
I couldn't help missing little Rawdon, the O'Dowds, Lady Jane, etc., but I think it would get too confusing and boring to just plug them into the somewhat blow-by-blow plot summary we have at the moment - maybe if it got revised a lot and gave a less complete account of the main characters. But does anyone else feel their absence, or is it just my POV? Candle-ends 20:21, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's just your POV.


 * But, seriously, the main page should really be cleaned up to restrict its treatment to the main characters as listed by the author in the preface and the rest should go to a List of Vanity Fair characters that could be linked from the section. It is a major enough work to deserve it, especially since it's half roman a clef anyway. — Llywelyn II   11:50, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Becky's European wanderings
I made a minor change in the description of Becky's difficulties in staying one step ahead of her reputation. Steyne hounds her out of Rome, but it's just ordinary gossip that drives her from place to place, because too many people know about what happened, even if only second-hand. Anyway, Steyne dies in 1830, so he can't hound her for very long. Thackeray says: "Whenever Becky made a little circle for herself with incredible toils and labour, somebody came and swept it down rudely, and she had all her work to begin over again." (p. 818, OUP 1983 edition). Serandou 09:41, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Plot summary too long and intro too short
People shouldn't have to read a book report in order to get the gist of the novel. For a great example of an intro that combines a simple plot summary with the important historical and literary facts about the novel see Hamlet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.116.59.222 (talk) 07:21, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Involved storylines need involved summaries. For short "gists", we have the lead section.


 * Given the editorializing and POV of the current version of the page, it might be worthwhile to go back to the version this editor was complaining about and restore more of it. — Llywelyn II   04:43, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Not only the plot is too long. The main characters are described too fully. Timmytimtimmy (talk) 02:52, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Theorists
After reading some of the "Theorists" section, I started reading the Introduction to Vanity Fair called "Before the Curtain". After reading what Thackeray actually wrote and comparing it to what the author of "Theorists" wrote, I added Thackerays actual words as a reference. It clearly demonstrates that the author of "Theorists" is a charlatan. I have no intention of altering any of it but for my part, the whole section can be deleted with no loss to readers. Mike Hayes (talk) 17:37, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Rewrite of plot
I have made a massive change, by rewriting the whole plot section. This may be arrogant of me, and I quite understand if it is reversed, or (hopefully) heavily rewritten in turn. But I feel that the previous version was specifically in error in some places, and not clear in others. I started by considering changes, but ended up feeling a rewrite was easier!

My specific grouses were :
 * I don't think Thackeray ever states explicitly that Becky has an affair with Steyne. He seems to deliberately leave that as ambiguous. So my rewrite seeks to high-light that ambiguity.


 * I don't think that Dobbin fell out of love with Amelia at the end of the novel. True - they had a flaming row. But he came back immediately at her letter. Yes, it says that he loves his daughter more than Amelia, but he's a soppy old soul, and particularly fond of vulnerable people. Now - I do NOT seek to impose my own opinion in my rewrite. Rather I have left out the matter altogether.

I have also tried to give a much simpler account of this complex plot! I have concentrated on names and who is on what terms with who, rather than try to give the flavour of this sparkling satirical novel. I imagine the reader to be a young student wanting a crib on the story, so he/she could concentrate on the nature of the novel while reading it, instead of trying to sort out all those Crawleys, Sedleys and Osbornes!

Of course, you may feel that the plot summary is still too long. But it is quite a complicated novel. Joedkins (talk) 15:15, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your work but your points are badly taken. The ambiguity of the base text is undone by his statements that he is deliberately not discussing sex openly. They blatantly had an affair: Steyne isn't angry that Rebecca turned out to be virtuous but that she would be so shameless as to at this point claim to be virtuous. You can discuss Thackeray's coyness with the topic and the reasons for it, but you can't argue in good faith that she actually was innocent of that, of sleeping her way across the Continent, or of Jos's death. Dobbin is out of love at the end of the novel in any meaningful sense. He knows she isn't worthy of love (which the truly loving cannot see); he nonetheless carries on out of a sense of duty to his idea of love and the role he feels he should play. See Thackeray's own words above: it's part of the basic thesis of the work that Dobbin's love is also a vanity and not true. You can dislike that, sure, but it is what it is.


 * I'm sure it isn't perfect either but future editors might want to look at the 2008 and 2015 versions of this page to restore the useful material earlier (well-meaning) editors have removed before undertaking their own rewrites.


 * What the article could really benefit from, though, is not altered recaps but (a) spinning off a character page to deal with known roman a clef issues and help readers while limiting this page to the main characters as listed by Thackeray (viz., the girls, their respective boys, Dobbin, and Steyne) and (b) making sure we have (well-sourced) explication or links to the major allusions in the text such as charades in their 19th century context; Emmy/Georgie and Hannah/Samuel; Rebecca and the mermaid/siren; etc. I'm sure there's also quite a bit to add about social climbers known to and as understood by Thackeray's audience—Emma Hamilton and her penniless death in Europe after the great victory of Trafalgar; the governess of Maintenon and her (albeit secret) marriage to a king—that modern readers won't know but that made up a great deal of the initial understanding and reception of Becky Sharp. —  Llywelyn II   04:57, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Sequel
Some background here. Several of the original sources—like The Critic—are on Google Books but they're insanely being shown in snippet form despite being well out of copyright. In any case, Thackeray provided a "canon" continuation of the story in a letter to the 6th Duke of Devonshire on May 1, 1848, bringing the story up to date from the gossip he had previously heard from Lord Tapeworm: "My lord Duke Mrs. Rawdon Crawley whom I saw last week and whom I informed of Your Grace's desire to have her portrait, was good enough to permit me to copy a little drawing made of her 'in happier days', she said with a sigh, by Smee the Royal Academician. Mrs. Crawley now lives in a small but very pretty little house in Belgravia: and is conspicuous for her numerous charities wh. always get into the newspaper, and her unaffected piety. Many of the most exalted and spotless of her own sex visit her, and are of opinion that she is a most injured woman. There is no sort of truth in the stories regarding Mrs. Crawley & the late Lord Steyne. The licentious character of that nobleman alone gave rise to reports from wh. alas! the most spotless life and reputation cannot always defend themselves— The present Sir Rawdon Crawley (who succeeded his late uncle Sir Pitt 1832, Sir Pitt died on the passing of the Reform Bill) does not see his mother: and his undutifulness is a cause of deepest grief, to that admirable lady. 'If it were not for higher things,' she says, how could she have borne up against the worlds calumny, a wicked husbands cruelty and falseness, and the thanklessness (sharper than a serpent's tooth) of an adored child? But she has been preserved mercifully preserved to bear all these griefs and awaits her reward elsewhere. The italics are Mrs. Crawley's own. She took the style and title of Lady Crawley for some time after Sir Pitts death in 1832, but it turned out that Colonel Crawley Governor of Coventry Island had died of fever three months before his brother, whereupon Mrs. Rawdon was obliged to lay down the title wh. she had prematurely assumed. The late Jos. Sedley, Esqre. of the Bengal Civil Service left her two lakhs of rupees, on the interest of wh. the widow lives in the practices of piety and benevolence before mentioned. She has lost what little good looks she once possessed, and wears false hair and teeth (the latter give her rather a ghastly look when she smiles) and—for a pious woman—is the best crinolined lady in Knightsbridge district. Colonel and Mrs. W. Dobbin live in Hampshire near Sir R. Crawley: Lady Jane was godmother to their little girl: and the ladies are exceedingly attached to each other. The Colonel's 'History of the Punjaub' is looked for with much anxiety in some circles. Captain & Lt. Colonel G. Sedley-Osborne (he wishes he says to be distinguished from some other branches of the Osborne family and is descended by the mothers side from Sir Charles Sedley) is I need not say well, for I saw him in a most richly embroidered cambric pink shirt with diamond studs bowing to your Grace at the last party at Devonshire House. He is in Parliament: but the property left him by his Grandfather has, I hear, been a good deal overrated. He was very sweet upon Miss Crawley Sir Pitt's daughter who married her cousin the present Baronet, and a good deal cut up when he was refused. He is not however a man to be permanently cast down by sentimental disappointments. His chief cause of annoyance at the present moment is that he is growing bald, but his whiskers are still without a gray hair, and the finest in London. I think these are the latest particulars relating to a number of persons about whom Your Grace was good enough to express some interest. I am very glad to be enabled to give this information and am Your Graces very much obliged Svnt W. M. Thackeray P.S. Lady O'Dowd is at O'Dowdstown arming. She has just sent a letter of adhesion to the Lord Lieutenant, wh. has been acknowledged by his Excellency's private secretary Mr. Corry Connellan. Miss Glorvina O'Dowd is thinking of coming up to the Castle to marry the last-named gentleman. P.S.2. The India mail just arrived announces the utter ruin of the Union Bank of Calcutta in wh. all Mrs. Crawleys money was. Will Fate never cease to persecute that suffering Saint?" Note Thackeray himself lost most of his own inheritance through the failure of an Indian bank. The attached drawing shows Becky on a couch reading Altina, with a copy of Les Liaisons Dangereuses open on the floor nearby.

Separately, "Life Imitates Art Far More than Art Imitates Life", from Oscar Wilde's 1889 The Decay of Lying: An Observation, includes a (third-hand) history of the governess who supposedly principally inspired the character of Becky Sharp. — Llywelyn II   03:08, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Sources for future article expansion
Ok, if this goes on any more, I'll need to read through the entire novel and major pieces of Thackerayana and it'll be a year of my life gone. So, for the next editor who gets surprised that this story is much better than English teachers let on, here are the tabs I have open right now that still need going through:


 * More at Heiler's paper on the narration's disingenuousness
 * More at York's paper re: references and illustrations, particularly needed info on Clytemnestra as woman and avenging fury in Aeschylus and the other one, Mme Maintenon, Emma Hamilton, Trojan doubling for the Napoleonic wars, Aeneid/Odyssey refs and homecoming, allusions to Dobbin bearing some responsibility for George's death, &c.
 * More at Milne's book re: Thackeray's twist on Vanity Fair, particularly needed info on places where the narrator pointedly excludes the reader from some scene or information & the evangelical upbringing Thackeray's mom inflicted on him and his reluctance to openly espouse the religious views he nonetheless held in his literature
 * Much more at Sutherland's Appendix C, tracing the entire life cycle of Vanity Fair, with composition and publication details (incl. intended hostility to Carlyle and O'Malley and the original publication plans that fell through b/c Thackeray had satirized the writer who ended up taking over the original magazine), the mixed nature of early reviews (they were not universally positive as currently stated), and several important asides, including the origin of the title, the late invention of Dobbin and his function as a hero, the initial cover's shout-out to Jonathan Swift and Punch and mocking of Nelson and Wellington, centrality of Waterloo (it had been intended for the 30th anniversary) in the conception of the work and his preparatory visit to it but morality and contemporary lit influencing Thackeray's decision to stay with the noncombatants in his treatment of it and the success of Snob in shifting the work's focus; see also the listed Telegraph article for modern appreciation of that move, etc. etc. etc.
 * Sutherland's entry on Thackeray has more details on the publication history, initial sales and reception, and influence on Thackeray's own life that all need adding; it's also a source for him shifting from being a "penny a liner" (actually £60 for each vol. of VF) to a "serious" novelist and Victorian England's "second author" after Dickens;
 * has more on Rhoda and Jews in the work, particularly Thackeray's ability to refer to them coyly by using his illustrations as part of the text
 * . has discussion of Anne's mother's insanity, bits on inspiration for VF’s characters, Thackeray saying Amelia ended as a "tender little parasite", &c.
 * includes the "Sequel" letter given above, reviews, etc.
 * , reprinted 1996 & 2016 by Routledge as The Life of William Makepeace Thackeray.
 * , on the names and their background.
 * , like it says on the tin.

This isn't really a RS but it's well-sourced and -argued, so it's useful for considering and double-checking. — Llywelyn II   15:54, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Becky
Please note:

Articles for deletion/Becky Sharp (character) CapnZapp (talk) 08:33, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:23, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Map of the battle of waterloo by W.B. Craan (1845).jpg