Talk:Vaquero

De-disambig?
The original vaquero was actually the first cowboy and I am about to sandbox an article to that effect. (I am also a major contributor to cowboy, if it matters). However, am trying to figure out how to title it and would actually like to invoke WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and use this title, moving this to a disambig page. Does anyone out there care or have an issue with this? Montanabw (talk) 22:06, 15 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Hmmm, went ahead and did it without reading this. Well, they've had 11 months to object... So, do you still have your article? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 17:51, 6 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, it's a mess that's been languishing in my sandbox for months, but I'll pour it in and it can be worked on from there.  Montanabw (talk) 22:28, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

'...and other Spanish settlers brought their cattle-raising traditions...'

The warriors that defeated the native empires such as the Aztecs were comprised primarily of local indigenous enemies, not Europeans. After the defeat of the Aztecs, among those arriving from Europe there would’ve been plenty of settlers and colonists, and they would’ve have been the ones assigned the tasks of introducing the cattle raising traditions  mentioned in this article. Soldiers and warriors would have had other duties and responsibilities to attend to in the colonies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.59.117.190 (talk) 13:44, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Tribal
Where would tribal fashion/era fit in? It seems that they are redefining what vaquero means. If you have no idea what I am talking about please look up the Guarachero fashion, and Mexican long pointy (and flamboyant) boots? thanks

76.172.76.170 (talk) 07:51, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Arabic
I'm OK with the horse handler words derived from Arabic words related to cattle, but we may need more sources. However, I think Wehr is wrong that šakīma, means "bit" or "bridle", as the derivation goes from Persian "hakma" to Arabic šakīma to Spanish "jacquima," which became English "hackamore." I'll admit "bridle" is used (somewhat inaccurately) to mean "headstall" because even in English people call hackamores a "bridle" even though the OED is pretty clear that a true "bridle" has a bit. If you blow this image up large enough to read the lettering File:Hackamore to bit.jpg you will note that the Spanish freno is translated as "bit." (says this right above the sketch of the bit shank, toward the bottom). I realize a poster isn't necessarily a verifiable source, but in this context, the rest of the poster is correct on terminology as it is used in the Americas, so I'm pretty confident that they aren't that far off -- Google tells me modern translations of "freno" include brake, curb or bridle |en|freno. I won't go to the mat for Google, but their modern use translates "bridle" as brida or freno |es|bridle, not jaquima, Google is no help for "bit" or "mouthpiece" from English into Spanish as regards horses, it appears. Montanabw (talk) 17:41, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Well of course I don't know how fluent your Arabic is; mine is a little rusty. Wehr's dictionary is a very sound one; if you have access to a better one, please let me know what it gives under headword شكيمة or indeed for the triliteral root شكم . I also happen to have ألفرائد, which in general I find less reliable than Wehr, but useful for Egyptian dialect and usage. It gives "to bridle (a horse)" or "to bribe (a judge)" for the verb شكم , and "bit" for شكيمة . It also gives "cowherd or neat-herd" for بقار . Please note that these are reliable, scholarly sources. Google may be OK to translate an ad for pizza, but has no hope of adequacy in this kind of specialist field. I am surprised that you even mention it in this context. There are many Spanish words for bit; hierro is in common use in Andalusia. That and some others are given in this article. The transliterations bakara and bakhara for the word meaning cow are both conventionally incorrect, as k is used to transliterate letter ك kaf, and kh for  خ kha' , while the second letter of this root is ق qaf. Neither bakara nor bakhara means cow or anything to do with cattle. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 22:45, 12 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Sarcasm doesn't solve the problem, so please stop. As for sourcing, this would not be the first time that horsemanship works have misstatements of history or language while at the same time historians and linguists are clueless about horses and say ridiculously wrong things.  Unless Wehr is a horseman, he wouldn't be the first to not use precise translations of equipment that he doesn't understand.  Bennett is quite clear that Persian "Hakma" eventually got to "jaquima" and "hackamore", so it defies logic that bits would sneak in there in between--but it certainly is well within the realm of logic that Wehr doesn't understand that all bridles have a headstall but not all headstalls are bridles, at least, not in English.  As for the other, you will note that the "bakara" term is qualified by the "some linguists" and one way to solve the problem is to use the more correct spelling with a second source to back up a consolidated sentence.  As for the other, "Cowherd" would work better than "cowboy" if you want to make that change and cite to the relevant work; the "cowboy" came after the vaquero, after all.   Montanabw (talk) 00:02, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
 * بقار is the guy looking after the cows, بقره is the cow, الفرائد is the plural of فريدة and means unique or solitaire.--Andreas Hausberger 05:46, 14 July 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Conversano Isabella (talk • contribs)
 * Thanks, and now how does that get written in the Roman alphabet? (i.e. the "k" versus "kh" thing, and, like Chinese and other languages, isn't there more than one way to do so anyway??)
 * Look here for more info about that subject.--Andreas Hausberger 04:33, 15 July 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Conversano Isabella (talk • contribs)

Or read what I wrote earlier, if you prefer. You cast doubts on the accuracy of Wehr, though I'm not clear on exactly what grounds. Anyway, I am pleased to discover that Lane is available online, here among many other places, so why not just check the meanings for yourself instead of relying on what others say? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 09:54, 15 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not questioning the sources, I'm questioning your interpretation of them. Given your other edits, JLAN, sometimes you are correct, but other times you are just biased and opinionated, then you viciously attack anyone who disagrees with you.  The source from JSTOR is reliable and the source says what the source says.  All I know is that we have more than one way to Romanize Arabic -- take, for example, Khadaffi, Ghadaffi, Khadafy, etc. for Our Good Libyan Friend Moammar (also Mommar, Muhammar, etc...) or, for that matter, Mohammad/Muhammad/Mehemet, etc. My concern is sticking to the form used by the source in question given that I am not an Arabic scholar and you indicate that you are not either. I asked another horse article editor whom I trust and know has some Arabic language ability to add input.  My dog in this hunt is showing the known historical progression from Ancient Persia through the Islamic world to Spain and then the Americas.   Montanabw (talk) 18:28, 15 July 2011 (UTC)


 * No, I am not a scholar in any real sense of the word. I studied at SOAS in the 70s, then lived six years in an Arabic-speaking country, in a context that required me to speak Urban Hijazi dialect for many hours each day. I was reasonably fluent at the end of that time, but have spoken and read little Arabic since, though I occasionally listen to the radio - hence "rusty". But if you want to know what a dictionary says, be assured that I have the necessary skills to find out. All that Andreas says is correct, though I believe the meaning of الفرائد in the context I used it (the name of a dictionary) is better translated "the pearls". Lane is quite specific that شكيمة shakīma means bit and not hackamore: "the transverse piece of iron in the mouth of the horse, in which is the فأس " (which is "the tongue of iron which stands up towards the palate", "that which is in the middle of the شكيمة "). Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:17, 15 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Hmmm. Well, that is interesting. Given that I do not read Arabic at all, (I should, but I don't) I will have to take your word for it, but I appreciate that you are providing a gracious and cogent explanation.  My question would next be if you have a word in Arabic for a hackamore that is distinct from that of a halter (headcollar) as  headgear intended to control a horse when riding.  The Spanish jaquima-->English hackamore is very well documented, and the tracing of "equipment with a heavy noseband you can ride in" to the "hakma" of Ancient Persia is also pretty clear.  So if Arabic takes a left turn and uses a similar-sounding word to refer to bits, that's just weird.  (Of course, I've seen plenty of modern English dictionaries that get horse equipment wrong, mine insists that hackamores derive from halters, which isn't so)  By the way, though, the "the tongue of iron which stands up towards the palate" may be the spoon of a spade bit (horse) as opposed to a bit in general.  The Moorish connection in bits to the Spanish tradition is yet another area of research and study that is probably sitting out there for someone to do.  Interested?    Montanabw (talk) 20:51, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Follow up -- looks like you are right on "sakima" -- found a different source from one of my old edits (includes a ref to the 2008 OED) that backs up the bit and bridle thing. See hackamore. Still weird to have the equipment in question move around. But I'll publicly mea culpa on this one that you are accurate here. Montanabw (talk) 21:09, 15 July 2011 (UTC)


 * On Romanian (a Latin language) văcar means just that, vaquero (cowherd). Alas, I can not suppose that there is not an even older progenitor to this term than one of a Latin provenience (i.e. one of a common Indo-European heritage). However, seeing the similarity between the Arabic 'bakara' and the Spanish 'vaquero', is it not possible that the Arabic culture has adopted this term from older Latin sources, and not vice versa? — Preceding unsigned comment added by RomânescEsteLatin (talk • contribs) 22:15, 28 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Hard to say, a "chicken or egg" question. Would require a reliable source in either case.   Montanabw (talk) 23:24, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Unfortunately the speculation in the article about Arabic origins, however attractive as a theory, was just that, and entirely unsupported by the sources cited. I've removed it, and restored a bit of what those sources do actually say. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 09:07, 29 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I really do wish, my dear JLAN, that you would remember WP:AGF and cease characterizing material as "OR" or "speculation" when a simple "can this be sourced?" would do. If the material is not in the source cited,  (and I looked, you are correct, though you didn't look real deeply on some other things you tagged which were in there) so that's all that needed to be said.  Some of the Arabic theory may have come from this citing "bakhara" (which was also discredited by someone else...).  That Arabic-originated words exist in the lingo of the American west is quite clear, as seen here:  but it looks like the Spanish  "horseman" word with Arabic roots is actually jinete, (see p. 109)  Which is interesting and possibly worth adding to that article. (nodding your way). Really, you would be a fine collaborator if you'd moderate your condescending tone and superior attitude to be less nasty and obnoxious.   Montanabw (talk) 23:29, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Vague talk about "tradition"
The article at present suffers from frequent vague references to "traditions" without much specific information as to exactly what these "traditions" consist of. Without such specifics, the article reads more like a foggy, nostalgic paean to a fading way of life than a genuinely encyclopedic article. Poihths (talk) 11:33, 13 June 2014 (UTC)


 * The word is used a lot and some copyediting might be useful, but there are multiple references therein and examples, so if you have nothing helpful to offer, then cut the snark. It's a history article, simple and clear, nothing foggy about it.  Montanabw (talk)  00:50, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 November 2014
Request declined: See explanation below. Montanabw (talk) 22:17, 18 November 2014 (UTC) Please add section:

Controversy
The University of Texas-Pan American and The University of Texas-Brownsville will merge together in the Fall of 2015. Guy Bailey, the first President of the newly created University of Texas-Rio Grande Valley, chose the 'Vaqueros' as the new university mascot on November 5th, 2014. The University of Texas Board of Regents unanimously approved his decision the very next day. An online petition against the choice quickly sprouted and gained over 10,000 signatures in the matter of a few days. Hundreds of students at the University of Texas-Pan American and University of Texas-Brownsville protested the decision. A separate petition was initiated, gaining over 700 signatures, and called for the immediate resignation of UT-RGV President Guy Bailey. Leaders of this movement include former University of Texas-Pan American alumni Alex Del Barrio.


 * Hello, I am one of the students that attends the University of Texas-Pan American. I was made aware of an edit another student was trying to make, but he took a wrong approach with you guys, and I apologize on the movement's behalf. I do think that this matter is an important thing to discuss because of the backlash the University President has received from the community.  We do see this issue as being stereotypical, and it offends us a great deal.  I'm not used to editing on a protected page, so sorry for all those edits.


 * I'd say it is undue weight at the least, and may be playing into a group's personal agenda. A smaller section in the University's Wikipedia article *might* be appropriate, but not here imho. MartinezMD (talk) 21:25, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

More to the point, it doesn't belong here any more than a debate about sports mascots named cowboys belongs there. This belongs at the University of Texas-Pan American and the University of Texas-Brownsville articles, or possibly in a separate article about the controversy. The topic probably has sufficient news coverage to warrant mention on the pages about these schools. Montanabw (talk) 22:20, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

"Traditions"
I don't think you can justify that "English" or East coast herding traditions had any impact on either California or Texas vaquero "traditions," and certainly not before 1850. Can you name a piece of equipment or a herding practice that came from the east?

The Mexico-to-California practices are described in William Heath Davis' 75 Years in California, among other places. Describes: round up or rodeo with several ranchers attending, to separate branded cattle; herding by groups of 25 cows with one bull; slaughter at a matanza; slaughter method; el coleo or collar; roping method; taming cabestros and their use; and vaquero fun and games.

Andrew Sluyter's Black Ranching Frontiers develops the Spanish tradition via Mexico considerably, inlcuding use of desjarretaderra. He has an interesting theory that Vera Cruz blacks developed the saddle horn.

So what is left for East coast cattle raisers to contribute, except new genetic strains of cattle?Barbgal16 (talk) 17:45, 7 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Texas-based traditions differ from California, and though both clearly are rooted in Mexico, changes occurred in part due to the influence of southerners moving into Texas prior to the Mexican war. That said, if you wish to provide ISBN numbers or additional citation info on the works you mentioned, it sounds like they are good ones.  Montanabw (talk)  06:01, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

It is interesting that there is an article about “Vaquero” considering that a Vaquero is nothing more than a job or trade a peasant would do; Vaquero just means “cattle-herder.” I’ve notice that in the US the Vaquero holds a very high place, mostly do to the fact that people ignore history. Vaquero is just a job, one of the many jobs a peasant or countryman would do, nothing more nothing less.

The Mexican cattle-herding and equestrian traditions did not come from Spain nor developed there. Both traditions are very different. Remember that most countries have some sort of cattle-herding tradition, each very different from the other. The horse riding style known as “Jineta” or “Gineta” or “Xeneta” comes from Africa and was introduced by Aficans and Arabs during the 700 year conquest of the Ibearian peninsula. The Spaniardsa and Portuguese adopted the style as did the French and Italians. But when it was brought to Mexico it developed differently as it was the only riding style available and according to Vargas de Machuca it was perfected in those lands. Also keep in mind that the vast majority of cattle herding in Europe, including Spain, was done on FOOT, not on horseback, only a small minority in the isolated areas of southern Spain did cattle herding on horseback and most were Arabs or Moors. All cattle herding in Mexico was and is done on horseback.

Every other cattle-herding technique was developed indigenously in Mexico as the Old World techniques were useless in such a vast land and with greater amounts of cattle. So while a Spanish or Portuguese herder uses a “garrocha” or pole to drive cattle a Mexican uses a Lasso, for example.

As I said before “Vaquero” just means “cattle-herder” In Spanish, on of the many jobs or trades a peasant would do. Within the Mexican Ranching system there were other jobs like a “Caporal” who was the boss of the “Vaqueros.” The Caporal was more skillful and got a higher wage and rode better horses and saddles than the Vaquero. The Caporal began working as a Vaquero until he was promoted to Caporal. There were other jobs like “Caballerango,” “Arrendador” or “Amansador,” and “Mayordomo.” Within the Spanish Cortijo (Spain’s versión of a Ranch) system there are only two jobs related to cattle herding the “Garrochista” also known as a Vaquero and the “Mayoral.” This is due to the fact that cattle ranches in Spain have always been small, compared to the Mexican ones, having up to 5000 heads of cattle.

As Vaquero is just a job, the correct word to describe this horsemen wearing those colorful costumes and hats with huge spurs on their feet was “Ranchero” or “Charro.” Charro, which means “Gaudy,” is the nickname given to Rancheros in Mexico because of their peculiar way of dressing.

I think this article should be modified to explain all of this as there are many mistakes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:6000:5806:3200:20A6:9656:861B:FD4D (talk) 20:42, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Vaquero just means Cattle-Herder
It is interesting that there is an article about “Vaquero” considering that a Vaquero is nothing more than a job or trade a peasant would do; Vaquero just means “cattle-herder.” I’ve notice that in the US the Vaquero holds a very high place, mostly do to the fact that people ignore history. Vaquero is just a job, one of the many jobs a peasant or countryman would do, nothing more nothing less.

The Mexican cattle-herding and equestrian traditions did not come from Spain nor developed there. Both traditions are very different. Remember that most countries have some sort of cattle-herding tradition, each very different from the other. The horse riding style known as “Jineta” or “Gineta” or “Xeneta” comes from Africa and was introduced by Aficans and Arabs during the 700 year conquest of the Ibearian peninsula. The Spaniardsa and Portuguese adopted the style as did the French and Italians. But when it was brought to Mexico it developed differently as it was the only riding style available and according to Vargas de Machuca it was perfected in those lands. Also keep in mind that the vast majority of cattle herding in Europe, including Spain, was done on FOOT, not on horseback, only a small minority in the isolated areas of southern Spain did cattle herding on horseback and most were Arabs or Moors. All cattle herding in Mexico was and is done on horseback.

Every other cattle-herding technique was developed indigenously in Mexico as the Old World techniques were useless in such a vast land and with greater amounts of cattle. So while a Spanish or Portuguese herder uses a “garrocha” or pole to drive cattle a Mexican uses a Lasso, for example.

As I said before “Vaquero” just means “cattle-herder” In Spanish, on of the many jobs or trades a peasant would do. Within the Mexican Ranching system there were other jobs like a “Caporal” who was the boss of the “Vaqueros.” The Caporal was more skillful and got a higher wage and rode better horses and saddles than the Vaquero. The Caporal began working as a Vaquero until he was promoted to Caporal. There were other jobs like “Caballerango,” “Arrendador” or “Amansador,” and “Mayordomo.” Within the Spanish Cortijo (Spain’s versión of a Ranch) system there are only two jobs related to cattle herding the “Garrochista” also known as a Vaquero and the “Mayoral.” This is due to the fact that cattle ranches in Spain have always been small, compared to the Mexican ones, having up to 5000 heads of cattle.

As Vaquero is just a job, the correct word to describe this horsemen wearing those colorful costumes and hats with huge spurs on their feet was “Ranchero” or “Charro.” Charro, which means “Gaudy,” is the nickname given to Rancheros in Mexico because of their peculiar way of dressing.

I think this article should be modified to explain all of this as there are many mistakes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:6000:5806:3200:20A6:9656:861B:FD4D (talk) 20:47, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Rewrite the article
Can I do an overhaul or rewrite of the article? For the last couple of months I’ve been adding new information, but I’m always afraid that I might piss off someone and they end up erasing what I’ve done. While I believe the current article is a great start, I think it should be expanded using more reliable sources. Nortekman (talk) 00:24, 18 July 2023 (UTC)