Talk:Varanasi/Archive 1

Northern India?
Isn't it better to define the region as "Doab" or maybe "Gangetic plains"? In the map the location seems hardly "Northern India", it's somewhat East.Maquahuitl 19:02, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Varanasi is in Uttar Pradesh. "Uttar" is Hindi for "north" and "Pradesh" is Hindi for "state" or "territory." There is linguistic precendent for designating Varanasi as being in North India. Bluerasberry (talk) 21:53, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Varanasi vs historical names for the same city
I rephrased a lot of this to make it (to my eyes) flow more smoothly; please change it back if you don't like it. (I thought I was logged in but maybe not.) A couple of things: --Shaydon 14:15 29 May 2003 (UTC)
 * Does it make sense to have two pages, Benares and Varanasi? - the second currently consists of the fact that Varanasi has a locomotive factory.
 * 'interfered with' (the ghats) sounds odd to me, but I don't know what exactly they (the ministry) did so I've left it alone. Is my definition of ghats okay by the way?

was Varanasi also called Menares ever? especially in the world of art.
 * Look at the top right corner of this image. --Khoikhoi 16:36, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I am looking for some information for writing another article. Is the zamindari land of Kashipur that is detailed in this page the same place as Varanasi ? Thanks Tintin 20:43, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Kaysov: (a very minor point) - I think some of our edits here are examples of the differences between British and Indian English. In Britain we'd usually say 'cause damage to', but in India perhaps 'cause a damage to' is more common? I'm certainly not demanding this page should be in British rather than Indian English, I just found it interesting having some vague interest in languages. Anyway if my thes sound wrong to you (the ministry, the Ganga) you should probably delete them again - it's better to be consistent. --Shaydon

Bhojpuri Language
Can someone please expand on that? I'm so interested lol 69.158.61.72 03:02, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * There is already substantial info on Dialects of Hindi. Please see Apnavana 17:39, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Bhojpuri is spoken in the region where Varanasi is located. It predates Hindi. Is it proper to call Bhojpuri a dialect of Hindi?Kanchanamala 09:45, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

School and Colleges
The article says that Benaras was a seat of learning by 700 BC, and this was after the establishment of Takshashila as a Buddhist centre. I thought that Buddhism was founded after c. 500 BC with the birth of Siddhartha Gautama. Before that, how could there be a Buddhist university? Gokul


 * Varanasi has been an eminent seat of learning since time immemorial. In the Dwapara Yuga, Mahamuni Saandeepani, teacher of Balarama and Krishna, taught there before relocating in Avantika (Ujjayini).  Buddha's time is c. 500 BCE.  Any center of Buddhist studies was of course established later.Kanchanamala 10:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Varanasi is the site of four public universities:

* Banaras Hindu University * Mahatma Gandhi Kashi Vidyapeeth University * Udai Pratap College Varanasi * Tibetan University at Sarnath * Sir Sampoornanand Sanskrit University

Apart from these, there are also several other colleges offering higher education, and public, private and Christian missionary schools offering education from Standard I (or from the Kindergarten) to Standard XII (the High School).

I have problems at following places:
 * Four public universities should list four of them, not five. Some one more knowledgeble please correct this.
 * As stated before, no need to add 'schools'.
 * public, private and Christian missionary schools offering education from Standard I (or from the Kindergarten) to Standard XII (the High School). The education system in India is education from Standard I (or from the Kindergarten) to Standard XII (the High School). We dont need to mention it. If it is that important, a link to Education in India can be added, nothing more.
 * What is the fascination with Christian missionary schools? Are they not private schools?

All in all this section makes the article lamer. I think it should be removed, and may be a list of 'after standard xii' colleges be added. As of now, I am correcting that part.--Anupam Srivastava 15:26, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't exactly know what is the total number of public Universities in Varanasi; whether is four or five. Could some one please confirm this if U. P. College is a University or not?--Anupamsr 15:49, 14 August 2006 (UTC) [ http://www.Webs4soft.com] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.162.44.107 (talk) 12:35, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Anupam Srivastava I dont think there is any need to add schools or the list will keep increasing

User Anupam had removed the COlleges and univs section, I dont know why. Its an integral part of any wikiarticle on any city, and so I have readded it. Please do not remove.Cygnus_hansa 01:51, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
 * This is just a request to NOT ADD schools!!! Every city has schools, we dont need to list them here as this is not Yellow Pages. Secondly, external links should go to External links. Even there schools should not be listed.--Anupam Srivastava 15:13, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I would really like to remove the 'Listing schools'. Schools are not relevant outside varanasi and have no importance as encylopedia content. Listing colleges can still be said ok.

For example: ...of the many English medium schools in Varanasi... What is the significance of being English medium? Kendriya Vidyalaya I think every major city has a Kendriya Vidyalaya.


 * I agree. Feel free to go ahead and remove them. --Khoikhoi 04:21, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I have removed the entries. If some institute is important enough to be mentioned (like BHU), it should be mentioned IN THE article. There is no need of seperate list, as such lists just keep increasing.

Regarding the Schools and Colleges subsection: Changed the subsection to 'Colleges and Universities' consistant with other cities in UP. Also - a list of ALL schools is beyond the scope of this page. Please refrain from describing the college or universities as a description like 'one of the best' etc is only a POV and not necessarily fact. --AKV
 * One of the best is used in wikipedia for all the good univs. See the page of any university.Cygnus_hansa 01:50, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Wonder of the world?
How is Benaras a wonder of the world? Alren 17:08, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Request to add information
Please add sections on the following
 * Silk art of Kashi - sarees
 * Bismillah Khan and other famous singers of Hindustani style
 * visit of Shankaracharya, maneesha panchakam
 * Raja Harishchandra
 * Ghats of Kashi - manikarnika, dashashwamedha etc
 * Indian National Congress conference - Gandhiji's speech
 * Further reading
 * Goddess Annapoorna, diety of food
 * Gautama Buddha and his encounters with the pandits of Kashi and his sermons there
 * Importance of Kashi to Jains

Ramashray

I felt not enough emphasis was put on Benaras as a cultural centre of northern India so I added a few lines. I also added Saaree and Carpet cottage insutries in the industry section. I think we also need to add more photos. I think the opening paragraph still needs a lot of work to express the true essence of Benaras as a whole. It is the most important part of the whole page.

Comments and suggestions ?

Saurabh Kabra

Industry
Removed a reference to "Dee Technologies" from the Industry section. We should avoid specific references to all but the city's one or two largest companies, so that the section doesn't become an extended advertisement. Bryan Silverthorn 22:47, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup
I have added the cleanup tag as of today.--Anupam Srivastava 15:32, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Since the article has a expansion tag, I have removed the cleanup.--Anupamsr 23:41, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Information about Music
Benaras has a rich culture of music, many musicians have dwelled and learned in Benaras. Many musicians come to benaras atleast once to play. Bismillah Khan is what I remember as of now, but the list has almost all the great classical musicians of this time. As far as I remember they play at Sankat Mochan Temple. Some one more knowledgeble or who is in Varanasi may shed more light and help to improve this article. Some one with more experience of Wikiepedia editing may help. I am too skeptical of spoiling this article myself. --Anupam Srivastava 14:53, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

a good website for the information about Varanasi is वाराणसी वैभव. Its in hindi and not sure whether the contents are copyrighted or not. This has a good information about culture of music too. Not sure whether translation from it is allowed or not.
 * Mitul0520 20:51, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the information.--Anupamsr 23:42, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

isnt it the oldest city in the world
brittanica lists varanasi as the oldest city in the world. can we add that

nids 06:06, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Reading from brittanica, I know that Varanasi is the oldest city. So I hope we can add this until it is not copy/paste.


 * Actually, to be precise, the Encyclopaedia Britannica says: "Varanasi is one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities in the world." That is a little different. Pasquale 22:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The claim that Varanasi is as old as Sumer -- is this real? As far as I know even the Harappan cities were no older than 2600 BC. Where has it been published that Varanasi was founded as a city in 3500 BC? 209.162.56.40 18:42, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the sentence which claimed carbon dating shows Varanasi was present in 10000 bc. The statement was not cited and I couldn't verify it.

Shakti Peethas
I do not find in the main article any reference as to why and how Varanasi is considered a shakti peetha while Shakti Peethas category is added in the last! Someone in the know of it may please explain.--59.94.74.88 15:06, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Vishalakshi Temple is considered a shakti peetha and I have added it under Holy City. VMO 16:23, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Today A New Page on Vishalakshi has been added. VMO 14:44, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

List of Rulers
List of Maharajas/Ruleres of Varanasi Raja 1740 - 1770 : Balwant Singh 1770 - 1781 : Chait Singh (avsatt av britterna) 1781 - 1794 : Mahip Narayan Singh 1794 - 1835 : Udit Narayan Singh 1835 - 1889 : Ishvari Prasad Narayan Singh 1889 - 1918 : Prabhu Narayan Singh Maharaja Bahadur 1918 - 1931 : Prabhu Narayan Singh 1931 - 1939 : Aditya Narayan Singh 1939 - 1947 : Vibhuti Narayan Singh Currrent Kashi Naresh: Anant Narayan Singh

I dont know where to put this, and there is no citation. Until that happens, I will not add it into the main article.--Anupamsr 23:37, 1 August 2006 (UTC) Any one who has more information or clue or knowledge about Varanasi or English may have a look into the article.--Anupamsr 23:39, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I have added this list to Kashi Naresh. The list still needs citations.
 * The citations are almost complete. I have changed the article of Kashi Naresh to Kingdom of Kashi. The new article has more potential to increase than just a title.

Incarnation of Lord Shiva
The following sentence is a bit confusing! Varanasi is the site of the holy shrine of Lord Kashi Vishwanath (an incarnation of Lord Shiva)... Well, generally Lord taking a human form is called incarnation. The jyotirlinga at Kashi is known as Lord Vishwanath who is none other than Shiva Himself. Why to say incarnation? Please clarify. 59.94.72.233 17:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Incarnation may not be the word here. Aspect would be better. Babub→ Talk 18:26, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Image:PrayerVaranasi.jpg
I am removing this image because I don't find it very relevant to the subject and IMHO many better images can be found. Moreover, the article seems to be cluttered with images of prayers, as it is the most common shot in Varanasi. I am planning to add pictures of Temples, so there you go. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anupamsr (talk • contribs)

distinguish achivement
Varanasi has most number of Bharat Ratna awardee (4) from a city. Bhagwas Das, Lal Bhadur Shastri, Pandit Ravi Shankar and Ustad Bismillah Khan.

Expansion template
Why is the expansion template still on the main page? I'll remove it if noone has any objections. Babub→ Talk 08:56, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Oldest city in the world ???
With all due respect, the claim that Varanasi "is the oldest continually inhabited city in the world, dating back thousands of years and being contemporaneous with Sumer" requires much more evidence than that single article quoted in footnote 1. As someone who has studied Sanskrit, the Rig Veda, and Indian antiquities pretty extensively, I find this claim dubious at best, and outright preposterous at worst. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of cities in the Middle East (Ancient Near East) which have been continuously inhabited for much longer and have a very strong archeological record to prove it. Take Jericho for instance. I'm sorry, but this statement may be acceptable in Hindu religious literature, but is totally unacceptable in a secular, science-based encyclopedia such as Wikipedia, unless it is supported by very solid evidence. Respectfully submitted. Pasquale 18:11, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Consider seeing and mapsofworld.com/thematic-maps/world-places-of-pilgrimage-map.htm. Search for oldest and you should be able to see the relevant section. You may also be interested in this but please read it fully because this article itself says that the claims are not verified. If you wish you can also contribute by citing the archeological records etc. for other cities.  Thanks. --Apandey 20:01, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I understand your objection. I have edited the history section of this article as there are a lot of misleading information available on internet. I have constantly seen claims of Varanasi being older than 3000 years, some claiming 5000 years. The statement in question was present already when I started editing this article so I left as it is. If you have any solid references, please edit the article reflecting it.
 * PS: Please keep in mind the Hinduism doesn't depend on the age of its pilgrimage sites. Pointing out the 'secular...' policy of wikipedia was completely unneeded and uncalled for. Pressing this point WILL give a call to a whole new angle of controversy over this issue starting from Aryan invasion theory and a hell lot.--  Anupamsr | talk | contribs  13:46, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

This wikipedia article itself says that there are more than one cities which claim to be the oldest continually habitated city in the world, Varanasi being one of them. I would really appreciate, if we discuss the references to the contrary (about some other city being the oldest) before making changes to this claim in the article. Thanks. --Apandey 18:48, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the replies, but the more I read the more skeptical I become. This whole question just seems to be a matter of faith rather than a matter of science. Personally, I have cultivated an interest in Indian antiquities for several decades and I never cease to be surprised by the insistence with which Hindu religious literature and mythology get in the way of science. Sorry, but I can't help being reminded of how Christian fundamentalists in the United States insist that the universe came into existence some 4,000 years ago, despite all the scientific evidence to the contrary. I have also looked at the List of oldest continuously inhabited cities and I find it equally disappointing and just not very scientific, and of little usefulness in its current state. The impression you get is that those city names are listed there because someone had an axe to grind. The fundamental question is: Where did urban societies first come into existence and have continued to exist without interruption? The answer is relatively easy: In the Nile Valley and in the Fertile Crescent (including Syria-Palestine and Mesopotamia). It stands to reason that this is where the oldest continually inhabited cities are to be found, and by the dozens. Other early urban civiizations like the Indus Valley Civilization and the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex were completely wiped out, so their cities can only exist as archeological sites.  Pasquale 22:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * It should be okay to talk about anything which is not supported by modern science provided that it is not claimed as a scientific fact. If something is negated by a scientific finding, that should be mentioned.Kanchanamala 04:07, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree to you that we should be looking for scientific facts than assumptions, but I am not aware of any scientific work done about these opinions. Until that happens, I think we can leave the mention that "Varanasi is believed to be one of the oldest city continually inhabited". I don't think it is wrong, just debatable because of lack of evidence - something we can live with.--  Anupamsr | talk | contribs  22:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay.Kanchanamala 08:11, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

History
Hi all! I have some material from UP Tourism deptt. I will be editing the History and related sections. Let us make this article a featured article.--  Anupamsr | talk | contribs  22:24, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * too late and busy for any work... :( --  Anupamsr | talk | contribs  13:47, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Tourism
"In this past year a new 5 Star Delux Hotel has opened, which brings a new level of Hotel Hospitality to a city that badly needs it. There has been Taj's 5 star hotel there for many years. Varanasi has slowly been moving towards the morden world, 2004 saw the beginnings with Mobile Phones and Broadban internet. 2006 saw the opening of a Mall with McD's which locals thought would never happen! Part of the city is becoming modern, but much of the city has remained the same for centuaries and will continue to remain unchanged for many more." I dont't think this section goes well with Varanasi. I also doubt its need in the article itself. Any comments?--  Anupamsr | talk | contribs  13:47, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know who has contributed the section on tourism. Now that my attention was drawn by your observation, I have read that section carefully.  I hope you will share my view that Varanasi, like Pushkar in Rajasthan, has become one of the world's major tourist attraction.  As such a short section to help the tourists seems quite proper.  Nonetheless, I think, the section should be kept free of any commercial content.  What do you say?Kanchanamala 05:17, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I completely agree, that the article should not have any commercial content. A section on Tourism is very important indeed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Anupamsr (talk • contribs) 02:18, 4 January 2007 (UTC).

Tourism, both domestic and foreign, is a huge influence on Benarasi culture and economy. There is a lot of tourism, such as the masses of religious pilgrims who come to the city with no money, who impact the city in ways that are difficult to cite due to the financial unprofitability of documenting transient people who are neither creating nor spending financial wealth in the city. In actuality, the luxury hotels in the city have little impact on the local culture or economy, because they are not part of a local luxury service industry. That is, hotels are often not locally owned, there are no comparable locally-owned hotels, they do not refer people to luxury services outside their grounds, their clients are typically shielded from non-servile contact with local people, and significant amounts of high-paid service in the hotel are provided by out-of-town workers who travel continually as accompaniment (porters, tour guides, translators) to the users of luxury services.

My advice for beginning a tourism section would be to start by categorizing the kinds of people who come to Benares and detailing their impact. The foreign impact is partially accounted for by the luxury hotels, but many more tourists stay at budget accommodation and I speculate that they have much more influence on the culture because they are not guarded and separated and because it is almost certain that their money gets spent at local small businesses. Leaving foreigners aside, different groups from different parts in India (and Nepal, Pakistan, and Bangladesh) come to Benares for many different reasons, all of which could fall under the heading of tourism. Unfortunately, I am having a lot of trouble finding any good writing on this from any source, and I cannot cite this kind of description.

Does anyone have any articles about tourism in Benares that were written for non-commerical reasons? Bluerasberry (talk) 17:42, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

NPOV
The marathas came to rescue the city? In the same way that the Crusaders rescued Jerusalem, that the Turks rescued Constantinople? I believe the word "rescue" is not neutral. Granted, the Mogul's were destroying the Hindu temples, but they built other structures so in that sense ones destruction is another's creation.Tourskin 00:59, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

B-class
Per Nichalp 's comments at the comments subpage, this article is assessed to be B-class. "Some sections are small" and guidelines for cities in India are located here. After conforming to the standards here, feel free to nominate this article for good article status. Happy editing, [ sd ] 23:09, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Art section
There is a huge list of names in the Art section. The list is too big and can be trimmed. We do not need to list each and every individual. Some one familiar with the name needs to remove some of the names. ɤіɡʍаɦɤʘʟʟ 16:07, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I googled some of the names in the art section. A lot of names there show biographical data extent elsewhere on the web, and in cases when I found data on the web but without a matching wikipedia article, I cited the external article. It has been a year since the request to skim the art listings has been posted. The situation for me is that obviously a lot the names on the list were significant enough for someone, somewhere to create web pages for them, but not significant enough for anyone to gather enough information on anyone such that there is enough notable information about an artist's impact to justify creating a wikipedia article. If anyone feels knowledgeable enough to delete some artists from this page then I certainly would never follow up on the deletion, because the list is too long considering that the names contained only might be significant.

Also, I would like to say that I did today delete some names from both the art section and other sections of this article. Some names, I think, were added by non-native English speakers, and I think that perhaps they spell certain words in ways that reflect their own language more than established English spellings. In any case, when I could not find a name on google, I deleted reference to it. Bluerasberry (talk) 17:42, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Bluerasberry (talk) 17:42, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question. You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Jahilia 00:12, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at Lead. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article.[?]
 * Per Wikipedia:Context and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates), months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide context for the article.[?]
 * See if possible if there is a free use image that can go on the top right corner of this article.[?]
 * Per Wikipedia:Context and Build the web, years with full dates should be linked; for example, link January 15, 2006.[?]
 * Per Manual of Style (headings), headings generally should not repeat the title of the article. For example, if the article was Ferdinand Magellan, instead of using the heading  ==Magellan's journey== , use  ==Journey== .[?]
 * There are a few occurrences of weasel words in this article- please observe WP:AWT. Certain phrases should specify exactly who supports, considers, believes, etc., such a view.
 * is considered
 * might be weasel words, and should be provided with proper citations (if they already do, or are not weasel terms, please strike this comment).[?]
 * Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
 * Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “ All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.”
 * Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.[?]

--Jahilia 00:12, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Population conflicts
In the info box, it lists the population of the city at about 3.1 million people. The article, under demographics, states two figures that are just over one million. It really doesn't look good and is, in fact, quite confusing to have two numbers that different both listed as the population of Varanasi. WindRunner 01:41, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Image:Bangladeshi style Rickshaw.jpg
The picture's description mentions that it's a Bangladeshi style rickshaw and I feel that in no way does it resemble the ones in Banaras. Then shouldn't it be removed? Shobhit102 09:23, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It surely does "resemble". It is not exact, though. If you look at all the other images for rickshaw at wikipedia, you will agree that this is the best match albiet it is too... glossy should i say.

Something new here/there?

 * 
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.69.48 (talk) 07:19, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Telugu
Can someone tell me what Telugu has to do with Varanasi?  Maquahuitl talk! 21:51, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know...--talk 17:08, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Telegu has little to do with Varanasi, although Varanasi has status for being a religious destination for Hindus, and therefore has greater diversity in cultural and language representation than any other Indian city of comparable economic status. The primary languages in Benares are, in order, Hindi, Bhojpuri, English, and Urdu, then there are significant resident populations of Punjabi, Nepali, and Bengali speakers, then other major Indian languages like Telegu speakers are there primarily to facilitate the religious needs of other speakers of those languages. Because of tourism it is not terribly difficult to find locally-born speakers of foreign languages, but these languages have little culture among the natives and are used almost exclusively for foreigners. Bluerasberry (talk) 17:42, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

mythical founding date
can we please stop citing random websites or leaflets for the 5000 years claim? It would be nice to know where it originated, but as long as we just give the number, make sure to list it under "legend", not as an "alternative" to the actual age of "ca. 3000 years". dab (𒁳) 15:54, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Assessment comment
{{Substituted comment|length=283|lastedit=20121116175201|comment=Comments: Upgraded to B class. Some sections are small. Yet to conform to the guidelines laid out by [{Wikipedia:WikiProject Indian cities]] {{nw=}}Nichalp   «Talk»{{nw=}}  15:20, 13 March 2007 (UTC)}} Substituted at 16:03, 1 May 2016 (UTC)