Talk:Varma Mutual Pension Insurance Company

Revert 31.8.2022
Varma history texts were removed along with the other information. The history information seemed to be correct and references were credible to support it. Could User:Praxidicae or somebody elaborate why the revert of the whole page to a very old version is necessary as a lot of very useful work is then lost? If no reasonable answer is received, it would be good to bring back at least some of the reverted texts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Huopa (talk • contribs) 08:45, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Clean-up in September 2020
The article contained warnings about a) commercial content b) too many primary sources and c) not reliable sources. The note was added 2 years ago. I checked the status back then there were 25 references in the article, 12 of them from Varma itself. There were also 3 non-media sources: WWF, Kasvuryhmä and Kasvu Open and Projektiuutiset media, which is not among the most-known Finnish medias. At the moment there are 31 refs and only 8 of them are from Varma. I've removed WWF and the other sites I just mentioned. I also removed a prize given in 2017 for Varma's pension specialist Outi Viljanen who was voted the best customer service agent in Finland in the Customer's Voice survey. The tone of the article tries to be as neutral as possible but if there are words or phrases that sound too commercial, please comment here and I try to learn my lesson. Cheers! Jjanhone (talk) 16:41, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

"Addition of primary source, lack of inline citation and advertising"

 * Information to be added or removed: Add these changes back
 * Explanation of issue: My edits were reverted by GSS who said "Multiple issues; addition of primary source, lack of inline citation and advertising. Please use the article talk page to request changes as per WP:COIEDIT)".
 * References supporting change:
 * Ref 1 = VarmaFS2020 - who else could published the key figures of a company other than itself?
 * Ref 2 = TE20210225 - this is a Finnish financial magazine, not an internal source, see Talouselämä
 * Ref 3 = Hannikainen - this is a book published by Otava, not an internal source. I used the chapter 11 which summarizes Varma's prehistory and which Varma has published on their website. For Otava, see Otava/books
 * Ref 4 = MT20210219 - this is a Finnish magazine, not an internal source. See Maaseudun Tulevaisuus
 * Ref 5 = HS20210219 - this is a Finnish magazine, not an internal source. See Helsingin Sanomat
 * Ref 6 - KL20210219 - this is a Finnish magazine, not an internal source. See Kauppalehti
 * Ref 7 - IS-2021-02-26 this is a Finnish magazine, not an internal source. See Ilta-Sanomat
 * Ref 8 - KL-2021-03-03 this is a Finnish magazine, not an internal source. See Kauppalehti/Toimitilat

Jjanhone (talk) 15:54, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I know Finnish sources and was asked to comment on the sources used in this article here. Almost all of these are unquestionably high quality mainstream sources. Namely, Maaseudun Tulevaisuus, Helsingin Sanomat, and Ilta-Sanomat are mainstream newspapers, nothing wrong with them. Talouselämä and Kauppalehti are quality financial papers.


 * The book Varma - From a small pension office to a large employment pension company [Varma - Pienestä eläkekonttorista suureksi työeläkeyhtiöksi] has all the hallmarks of a commissioned company history. However, Otava is a major, quality mainstream publisher. They are a publishing house, not a mere printer, so there is at least a reasonable level of editorial responsibility. I'd say this source is semi-independent. There are certainly no red flags about it. If it was from some obscure publisher I'd be more wary about its use, but Otava is fine.


 * I agree that using the company's own financial statement to update key figures is okay. All in all, I don't see a problem with primary sources in the edit above. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:09, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I raised this issue on Admins' noticeboard and gonna do some changes based on that. Wait a minute, will you? Jjanhone (talk) 20:40, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Copying comments from Admins' Noticeboard from Locke Cole here:
 * Thank you! I added all back and hope to continue the discussion on Varma's talk page, not here. The source for roots of Varma is not primary but an independent book about Varma. The chapter may be too long (but it's still a small part of the book) now but let's shorten it together? I already tried to do that but didn't know what to remove as I only picked the main issues in the first place from the book. Jjanhone (talk) 21:41, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I replied at WP:AN, please understand that I was only referring to adding back the dry statistics you had updated, not the section you added. My reply is here: diff. —Locke Cole • t • c 01:40, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Ping SarahSV - See the discussion about Ref 3 here. It is not company internal source, as confirmed here by Finnusertop. If you don't want to include Roots of Varma here, could you just remove that part and leave the other facts as they were, including new figures? Jjanhone (talk) 07:17, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * ❌ It doesn't look like there's anything that still needs to be done here; as best as I can tell, uncontroversial stuff has already been reinstated. If I err, please make a new edit request with your proposed changes. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 14:39, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The article has changed since the request edit but there is still one major thing left to do. See Roots of Varma. There are 5 different versions of the text available where 1 is the longest and 5 the shortest. I've added the version 5 but would appreciate if you could evaluate if we could use one of the longer versions (1-4). Thanks! I'd also value if you could evaluate if there is some problems with the neutrality of the article (that relates to the Paid tag). I believe the main reason the tag was added was my status as a paid editor not the status of the article. So here we go, I've added a new RE.Jjanhone (talk) 09:57, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
 * See that section for my thoughts on it. Regarding the paid contributions, before I removed it, I would need to go through the article and review of all its content, which would require me to devote lots of time that I currently do not have. The fact that I do not know Finnish and would struggle to assess most of the sources, plus the fact that I am not all that familiar with what content is considered appropriate in Wikipedia's company articles, would be significant obstacles to my doing so. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 17:37, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

"This article relies too much on references to primary sources. (March 2021)"
Yesterday I was adding 8 new sources to this article after which there were 39 refs in use. 7 of them were Varma's own sources. Then my edits were reverted and now there's only 31 refs in use, 8 of them being Varma's own sources. So the warning makes no sense for me: looks like I was adding more secondary sources and thus improving the article. And after the revert the article contains now too many primary sources? Jjanhone (talk) 06:09, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

COI/paid editing
I've reverted the recent rewrite, which I understand is COI/paid editing. See WP:NOPAY: "you are strongly discouraged from editing affected articles directly". In particular, it isn't clear what kind of source this is. It was used to support the section "The roots of Varma".

Jjanhone, the recommendation is for COI/paid editors to use request edit. I have to wonder whether the level of detail you're adding is meaningful to readers of the English Wikipedia. SarahSV (talk) 21:28, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The editor got one opinion on WP:AN in favor of one part of their edits, and took that as a sign that they could restore all the edits without a talk page consensus to do so.  Paid editors have a motivation to get their changes into an article come hell or high water, which is one of the reasons they are a  deleterious force on Wikipedia. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:41, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it was definitely not my intention to greenlight re-adding it all... —Locke Cole • t • c 02:03, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Ok, my bad then. You were not giving greenlight for Roots of Varma and I thought it was because you were thinking it was a company internal source. So I added it back as IT IS NOT an internal source. I started a discussion below about if that should be included (even partially) to the article. I don't understand why you keep reverting all my edits if you only disagree with the Roots part. Jjanhone (talk) 08:45, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I actually haven't reverted you at all on this. You asked my opinion at WP:AN and I provided it. I see below that Beyond My Ken has raised some concerns about the statistics, presuming you can provide an alternative source (or explain how Finnish regulations would make the reported numbers trustworthy), I would support that inclusion once discussion and consensus has formed around that (presently there is no consensus). —Locke Cole • t • c 16:27, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
 * You haven't reverted but there are two other Wikipedians who have reverted all my edits even though I think that only the Roots part was worrying them. There are a lot of other things I added too, not only Roots and figures, see the chain below. Jjanhone (talk) 09:02, 21 March 2021 (UTC)


 * The source is Matti Hannikainen book of Varma. Company funded writing of its history as 100 year old. Hannikainen wrote earlier history of finnish pension system and book was published through Otava  Review says that it is very good general presentation changes of Finlands pension system and Varma's position on it.  However, review doesn't comment things like neutrality etc or if the book has left out something. Based on that I would say, that it is likely good source for things which arent directly related to Varma as company and ok source for basic information of company history itself.  --Zache (talk) 14:38, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Roots of Varma / Request edit (edited)
Added an RE for the old discussion that has not proceeded.Jjanhone (talk) 09:59, 2 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Information to be added or removed: There are 5 different versions of the text available the Roots of Varma chapter below where 1 is the longest and 5 the shortest. I've added the version 5 but would appreciate if you could evaluate if we could use one of the longer versions (1-4). Thanks! I'd also value if you could evaluate if there is some problems with the neutrality of the article (that relates to the Paid tag). I believe the main reason the tag was added was my status as a paid editor not the status of the article.
 * Explanation of issue: see above
 * References supporting change: see below. Jjanhone (talk) 09:59, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

So I'm now starting a discussion whether it is relevant to talk about the roots of a company that was born by combining parts of two companies. Here is what I had written about that. Jjanhone (talk) 07:23, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

"The roots of Varma Varma's history dates back to 1919, when the Reinsurance Company Varma was founded ref TE20210225 into a Nordic-style joint venture of life insurance companies offering reinsurance and high-risk life insurance. Its owners, Kaleva, Salama and Suomi, wanted to work together to cope with the exceptional circumstances that tested their existence - an unprecedented level of inflation questioning savings-based life insurance. Varma's ownership was later expanded by new life insurance companies. Ref Hannikainen In 1926, Varma began group pension insurance for white-collar employees while wage labour became more common in Finland. In 1947, Eläke-Varma (Pension-Varma) was founded, focusing on pension insurances. In the 1950s, Eläke-Varma's operations expanded as wage labour increased and companies’ social responsibility for their employees became part of the social debate. There was a gradual shift from voluntary insurance to employment pension security. In 1957, the national pension reform was introduced, ending up being a flat-rate pension scheme.Ref Hannikainen In 1962 the private-sector employees’ pensions acts came into force.ref Hannikainen Statutory earnings-related pension cover was provided at that time by nine companies.TE20210225 The largest employment pension companies were Ilmarinen and Eläke-Varma. Varma differed from other companies in that it did not have a branch network, with the exception of the Helsinki head office. Pension Varma's customers were typically pension insurers of large manufacturing companies that were often closely linked to Yhdyspankki (the Union Bank of Finland). In 1965, four specialist insurance companies serving large-scale industry merged due to their common customer base Teollisuusvakuutus (Industrial Insurance Company Ltd), which became a close partner for Eläke-Varma.Ref Hannikainen In 1972, the operations of the non-life insurance company Fennia began to be reorganized and the pension insurance portfolio of its subsidiary Patria was transferred to Eläke-Varma. With the change, Eläke-Varma's distribution network improved, as Fennia's branches across the country also began to serve Eläke-Varma's customers. Eläke-Varma, Teollisuusvakuutus and Fennia began to form a group of insurance companies, although they all operated independently.Ref Hannikainen In 1983, the non-life insurance company Sampo established a limited company Eläke-Sampo (Pension-Sampo), to which Kalervo's employment pension insurance was transferred in 1985. Nova, a life insurance company founded by Eläke-Varma, together with Teollisuusvakuutus and Yrittäjäin Fennia, started operations in 1987. ref Hannikainen Until the mid-1980s, pension insurers were an integral part of Finnish industrial, employment and social policy. Their aim was to promote job creation, support the activities of export companies and facilitate structural change, as the financial sustainability of the pension system relied heavily on successful companies. Pension companies were involved in construction projects and invested in forests and power plants and financed corporate investments by re-lending pension assets. In the late 1980s, re-lending began to fade rapidly as companies gained access to other financing channels. As a result, Varma and other pension insurers began to seek income from investment activities and their role in society became more indirect, they began to exercise ownership in investment targets. Pension insurers began to compete for the best investment returns, which are now a key part of the sustainability of the entire pension system.Ref TE20210225 In the late 1980s, Yhdyspankki led the Finanssilaitos conglomerate, which acquired a significant stake in Yhdyspankki and Sampo. Eläke-Varma was also involved in the group. As the financial institution ran into difficulties, insurance companies began to be extensively reorganized, which eventually led to the merger of Eläke-Varma and Eläke-Sampo. In 1993, Eläke-Varma became one of the owners of Eläke-Sampo. The independent status of employment pension companies was clarified in the Act on Employment Pension Companies, which entered into force in 1997.ref Hannikainen After many stages, Eläke-Varma and Eläke-Sampo became mutual companies Varma-Sampo and Eläke-Fennia, which both started their operations in July 1998.ref Hannikainen"


 * And here's a shorter version. Jjanhone (talk) 08:57, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

"The roots of Varma Varma's history dates back to 1919, when the Reinsurance Company Varma was founded ref TE20210225 offering reinsurance and high-risk life insurance. It had three owners first, Kaleva, Salama and Suomi, but the ownership was later expanded by new life insurance companies. Ref Hannikainen In 1926, Varma began group pension insurance for white-collar employees. In 1947, Eläke-Varma (Pension-Varma) was founded, focusing on pension insurances.Ref Hannikainen In 1962 the largest employment pension companies in Finland were Ilmarinen and Eläke-Varma. Varma had not have a branch network, only the Helsinki head office. Pension Varma's customers were typically pension insurers of large manufacturing companies.Ref Hannikainen In 1972, the operations of the non-life insurance company Fennia began to be reorganized and the pension insurance portfolio of its subsidiary Patria was transferred to Eläke-Varma. With the change, Eläke-Varma's distribution network improved, as Fennia's branches across the country also began to serve Eläke-Varma's customers. Eläke-Varma, Teollisuusvakuutus and Fennia began to form a group of insurance companies, although they all operated independently.Ref Hannikainen In 1983, the non-life insurance company Sampo established a limited company Eläke-Sampo (Pension-Sampo). Nova, a life insurance company founded by Eläke-Varma, together with Teollisuusvakuutus and Yrittäjäin Fennia, started operations in 1987. ref Hannikainen Until the mid-1980s, pension insurers were an integral part of Finnish industrial, employment and social policy. Their aim was to promote job creation, support the activities of export companies and facilitate structural change, as the financial sustainability of the pension system relied heavily on successful companies. Pension companies were involved in construction projects. In the late 1980s, re-lending began to fade rapidly. As a result, Varma and other pension insurers began to seek income from investment activities. Pension insurers began to compete for the best investment returns.Ref TE20210225 In the late 1980s, Yhdyspankki led the Finanssilaitos conglomerate, which acquired a significant stake in Yhdyspankki and Sampo. Eläke-Varma was also involved in the group. As the financial institution ran into difficulties, insurance companies began to be extensively reorganized. In 1993, Eläke-Varma became one of the owners of Eläke-Sampo.ref Hannikainen After many stages, Eläke-Varma and Eläke-Sampo became mutual companies Varma-Sampo and Eläke-Fennia, which both started their operations in July 1998.ref Hannikainen"
 * Do you get paid by the word? Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:03, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * No.Jjanhone (talk) 09:06, 17 March 2021 (UTC)


 * A third version. Jjanhone (talk) 09:05, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

"The roots of Varma Varma's history dates back to 1919, when the Reinsurance Company Varma was founded ref TE20210225 In 1926, Varma began group pension insurance for white-collar employees. In 1947, Eläke-Varma (Pension-Varma) was founded, focusing on pension insurances.Ref Hannikainen In 1962 the largest employment pension companies in Finland were Ilmarinen and Eläke-Varma. Varma had not a branch network, only the Helsinki head office. Pension Varma's customers were typically pension insurers of large manufacturing companies.Ref Hannikainen In 1972, the operations of the non-life insurance company Fennia's subsidiary Patria was transferred to Eläke-Varma. With the change, Eläke-Varma's distribution network improved, as Fennia's branches across the country also began to serve Eläke-Varma's customers. Eläke-Varma, Teollisuusvakuutus and Fennia began to form a group of insurance companies, although they all operated independently.Ref Hannikainen In 1983, Sampo established a limited company Eläke-Sampo (Pension-Sampo). Nova, a life insurance company founded by Eläke-Varma, together with Teollisuusvakuutus and Yrittäjäin Fennia, started operations in 1987. ref Hannikainen In the late 1980s, re-lending began to fade rapidly and Varma began to seek income from investment activities. Ref TE20210225 In the late 1980s, the Finanssilaitos conglomerate led by Yhdyspankki and which Eläke-Varma was also involved with ran into difficulties, and the participants began extensively reorganize. In 1993, Eläke-Varma became one of the owners of Eläke-Sampo.ref Hannikainen After many stages, Eläke-Varma and Eläke-Sampo became mutual companies Varma-Sampo and Eläke-Fennia, starting their operations in July 1998.ref Hannikainen"


 * A fourth version. Jjanhone (talk) 09:11, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

"The roots of Varma Varma's history dates back to 1919, when the Reinsurance Company Varma was founded ref TE20210225 In 1947, Eläke-Varma (Pension-Varma) was founded.Ref Hannikainen In 1962 the largest employment pension companies in Finland were Ilmarinen and Eläke-Varma. Varma had not a branch network, only the Helsinki head office. In 1972, Fennia's subsidiary Patria was transferred to Eläke-Varma. With the change Fennia's branches across the country began to serve also Eläke-Varma's customers. Eläke-Varma, Teollisuusvakuutus and Fennia began to form a group of insurance companies, although they all operated independently.Ref Hannikainen In 1983, Sampo established a limited company Eläke-Sampo (Pension-Sampo). Nova, a life insurance company founded by Eläke-Varma, Teollisuusvakuutus and Yrittäjäin Fennia, started operations in 1987. ref Hannikainen In the late 1980s, the Finanssilaitos conglomerate led by Yhdyspankki and which Eläke-Varma was also involved with ran into difficulties, and the participants began extensively reorganize. In 1993, Eläke-Varma became one of the owners of Eläke-Sampo.ref Hannikainen After many stages, Eläke-Varma and Eläke-Sampo became mutual companies Varma-Sampo and Eläke-Fennia, starting their operations in July 1998.ref Hannikainen"


 * A fifth version. I guess there is now enough possibilites to choose from. :D Jjanhone (talk) 09:19, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

"The roots of Varma Varma's history dates back to 1919, when the Reinsurance Company Varma was founded ref TE20210225 In 1947, Eläke-Varma (Pension-Varma) was founded.Ref Hannikainen In 1983, Sampo established a limited company Eläke-Sampo (Pension-Sampo). In 1993, Eläke-Varma became one of the owners of Eläke-Sampo.ref Hannikainen After many stages, Eläke-Varma and Eläke-Sampo became mutual companies Varma-Sampo and Eläke-Fennia, starting their operations in July 1998.ref Hannikainen"


 * Interesting, my version is more liberal than your 4th and 5th versions, but could stil probably be trimmed:"HistoryVarma’s history dates to 1919 with the founding of the Reinsurance Company Varma, which offered reinsurance and high-risk insurance. In 1926, the company began to offer group pension insurance for white-collar employees. Eläke-Varma ('Pension-Varma') was founded in 1947 and by 1962 was one of the largest pension insurance companies in Finland. It typically served large manufacturing companies.In 1972, Patria, a subsidiary of the non-life insurance company Fennia was transferred [? sold?] to Eläke-Varma, and Fennias branches began to serve Eläke-Varmas customers, improving its distribution system.Nova, a life-insurance company, was founded in 1987 by Eläke-Varma together with two other Finnish insurance companies.In the 1980s, re-lending began to fade rapidly [what does 'fade rapidly' mean?] and pension companies such as Eläke-Varma began to make investments, including, in 1993, a stake in Eläke-Sampo ('Pension-Sampo'), a limited company founded in 1983.Insurance companies began to be extensively reorganized [when?], and, after many intermediate steps, Eläke-Varma and Eläke-Sampo became the mutual companies Varma-Sampo and Eläke-Fennia, which both started their operations in July 1998." Insert references and mix well. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:42, 17 March 2021 (UTC)


 * I'm fine with the lenght of your alternative but in some places it is not accurate. See my comments below.

"HistoryVarma’s history dates to 1919 with the founding of the Reinsurance Company Varma, which offered reinsurance and high-risk insurance. In 1926, the company began to offer group pension insurance for white-collar employees. Eläke-Varma ('Pension-Varma') was founded in 1947 and by 1962 was one of the largest pension insurance companies in Finland. It typically served large manufacturing companies.In 1972, Patria, a subsidiary of the non-life insurance company Fennia was transferred [? sold? merged? this is what the source says: 'the pension insurance portfolio of the fifth largest employment pension company, Patria, was transferred to Eläke-Varma in conjunction with the reorganisation of Fennia Non-Life Insurance Company’s operations. Patria was owned by Fennia.'] to Eläke-Varma, and Fennias branches began to serve Eläke-Varmas customers, improving its distribution system.Nova, a life-insurance company, was founded in 1987 by Eläke-Varma together with two other Finnish insurance companies.In the 1980s, re-lending began to fade rapidly [what does 'fade rapidly' mean? A: it means that it suddenly nearly stopped] and pension companies such as Eläke-Varma began to make investments, including, in 1993, a stake in Eläke-Sampo ('Pension-Sampo'), a limited company founded in 1983 [this is too brave I think. It started to make investments instead of just loaning money. Eläke-Sampo became part of Eläke-Varma because a big crash down that Finanssilaitos caused and which led to big rearrangements in the market. This is hard to explain as Finanssilaitos case is missing from English Wikipedia but it's a big thing].Insurance companies began to be extensively reorganized [when? A: after the Finanssilaitos thing], and, after many intermediate steps, Eläke-Varma and Eläke-Sampo became the mutual companies Varma-Sampo and Eläke-Fennia, which both started their operations in July 1998."


 * Jjanhone (talk) 10:42, 17 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Before anybody does any tweaking, let's see if other editors have anything to say about the overall shape and size of this possible alternative. Perhaps they'll prefer your 4th or 5th version. Beyond My Ken (talk) 11:22, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Ok. Let's hope we get some comments soonish. I mean I'm still eagerly waiting for comments for the topic I started (above) in September. :D Jjanhone (talk) 11:58, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * WP:There is no deadline. Beyond My Ken (talk) 12:00, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I've noticed :D. Jjanhone (talk) 12:16, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I added the fifth version in. It contains only the most crucial thing: there were two companies who were partly merged but instead of one company there were 2 companies born.Jjanhone (talk) 10:39, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * ❌ because none of it is sourced. Feel free to create another proposal that includes appropriate citations. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 17:33, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by not sourced? The REFs were included in the text itself (or look at this. So I'm reopening this RE. Jjanhone (talk) 05:24, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

"The roots of Varma Varma's history dates back to 1919, when the Reinsurance Company Varma was founded into a Nordic-style joint venture of life insurance companies offering reinsurance and high-risk life insurance. Its owners, Kaleva, Salama and Suomi, wanted to work together to cope with the exceptional circumstances that tested their existence - an unprecedented level of inflation questioning savings-based life insurance. Varma's ownership was later expanded by new life insurance companies. In 1926, Varma began group pension insurance for white-collar employees while wage labour became more common in Finland. In 1947, Eläke-Varma (Pension-Varma) was founded, focusing on pension insurances. In the 1950s, Eläke-Varma's operations expanded as wage labour increased and companies’ social responsibility for their employees became part of the social debate. There was a gradual shift from voluntary insurance to employment pension security. In 1957, the national pension reform was introduced, ending up being a flat-rate pension scheme. In 1962 the private-sector employees’ pensions acts came into force. Statutory earnings-related pension cover was provided at that time by nine companies. The largest employment pension companies were Ilmarinen and Eläke-Varma. Varma differed from other companies in that it did not have a branch network, with the exception of the Helsinki head office. Pension Varma's customers were typically pension insurers of large manufacturing companies that were often closely linked to Yhdyspankki (the Union Bank of Finland). In 1965, four specialist insurance companies serving large-scale industry merged due to their common customer base Teollisuusvakuutus (Industrial Insurance Company Ltd), which became a close partner for Eläke-Varma. In 1972, the operations of the non-life insurance company Fennia began to be reorganized and the pension insurance portfolio of its subsidiary Patria was transferred to Eläke-Varma. With the change, Eläke-Varma's distribution network improved, as Fennia's branches across the country also began to serve Eläke-Varma's customers. Eläke-Varma, Teollisuusvakuutus and Fennia began to form a group of insurance companies, although they all operated independently. In 1983, the non-life insurance company Sampo established a limited company Eläke-Sampo (Pension-Sampo), to which Kalervo's employment pension insurance was transferred in 1985. Nova, a life insurance company founded by Eläke-Varma, together with Teollisuusvakuutus and Yrittäjäin Fennia, started operations in 1987. Until the mid-1980s, pension insurers were an integral part of Finnish industrial, employment and social policy. Their aim was to promote job creation, support the activities of export companies and facilitate structural change, as the financial sustainability of the pension system relied heavily on successful companies. Pension companies were involved in construction projects and invested in forests and power plants and financed corporate investments by re-lending pension assets. In the late 1980s, re-lending began to fade rapidly as companies gained access to other financing channels. As a result, Varma and other pension insurers began to seek income from investment activities and their role in society became more indirect, they began to exercise ownership in investment targets. Pension insurers began to compete for the best investment returns, which are now a key part of the sustainability of the entire pension system. In the late 1980s, Yhdyspankki led the Finanssilaitos conglomerate, which acquired a significant stake in Yhdyspankki and Sampo. Eläke-Varma was also involved in the group. As the financial institution ran into difficulties, insurance companies began to be extensively reorganized, which eventually led to the merger of Eläke-Varma and Eläke-Sampo. In 1993, Eläke-Varma became one of the owners of Eläke-Sampo. The independent status of employment pension companies was clarified in the Act on Employment Pension Companies, which entered into force in 1997. After many stages, Eläke-Varma and Eläke-Sampo became mutual companies Varma-Sampo and Eläke-Fennia, which both started their operations in July 1998. "


 * Hi, I have declined the edit request. The first reference (TE20210225) is in another language and it would be difficult to find an editor to evaluate this addtion. The second reference (Hannikainen) is also in a foreign language and is a broken link in the article, so I am not sure where to find it. I think the 5 month gap since the last comment highlights this point. I will also say that, even if the references were readily available, this request would be hard to assess because it is one, very long paragraph, there is a lot of detail that needs to be cut and summarised, and prose that is not written in WP:WIKIVOICE. If you would like to add this information, please make a new request below with the edited prose. Z1720 (talk) 00:04, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

About the financial figures of Varma
Starting a new chain for this.Jjanhone (talk) 22:57, 19 March 2021 (UTC)


 * What do you say, could I add *everything else but the Roots part* back in now or do we wait for some one else to do the change? Jjanhone (talk) 12:16, 17 March 2021 (UTC)


 * It was Locke Cole's opinion that "I think the statistics updates you made can be added back without issue" (from the discussion at WP:AN)  I don't know that I necessarily agree with that.  I have no idea what the reporting requirements for corporations in Finland is, whether they're required to file a report of their finances vetted by an independent accountant, how frequently corporations attempt to fudge their figures to improve the appearance of their bottom lines, etc.  In short, OKing the use of internal documents to represent a neutral and factual picture of a company's fiscal state seems to me to be a sucker's bet, one that I'm not sure I'm willing to make.  It would be much better if the numbers came from a third-party WP:Reliable source rather then from a WP:Primary source. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:14, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Difficult questions :). Are you worried about if Finland is a corrupted country? Maybe this helps? And about using the primary sources, see : "An article about a business: The organization's own website is an acceptable (although possibly incomplete) primary source for information about what the company says about itself and for most basic facts about its history, products, employees, finances, and facilities." Jjanhone (talk) 11:05, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
 * No, I'm not worried about Finland being corrupt, I'm worried about whether Finnish corporations lie (calling it "creative bookkeeping", perhaps) on whatever official forms they are required to file with government agencies. Do they have to file such forms, as American corporations do?  What is the real or perceived accuracy of those forms?  Even if a third-party reliable source merely repeated what a corporation said about themselves, the very fact that they fulfill WP:RS means that they fact-check and make corrections when necessary.  Corporations have no requirement to do that, and many reasons why they might fudge their numbers, which is why we should use their statements as little as possible. And, frankly, the problem is that you are, not to put too fine a point on it, a paid shill for that company, so your judgment can't be trusted. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:34, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Well I'm not a bookkeeper and cannot answer you in details about how the corporations fill their reports but I assume you can trust Finnish companies at least as much as than then American companies.Jjanhone (talk) 22:57, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
 * That little, huh? Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:35, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The financial statements of the company are audited (Annual Report, pp. 53-54), so unless the auditors make mistakes (which is also something that can happen to fact-checkers at WP:RS) or the company lied about their statements being audited (which seems implausible), we can trust them. The reference used in the infobox is a presentation based on the annual report but it's unlikely that number are going to differ from it. Caius G. (talk) 10:45, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
 * So you would agree with Locke Cole above that it's OK to use that source? Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:44, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, by virtue of being audited, but it would be ideal to use the annual report itself instead of the company presentation. Best, Caius G. (talk) 23:55, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Updated the figures from 2019 to 2020.Jjanhone (talk) 11:13, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

2021 updates
I've added a edit request on this page but as it hasn't progressed and I have started new chains about the a) Roots of Varma and b) 2020 figures let's continue about the other changes I did and which were reverted.

1. Update from 2019 to 2020: In 2020, Varma paid out pensions in the amount of 6.0 billion euros to 343,000 people and made 21,100 new pension decisions. Premiums written amounted to 4.9 billion euros, and at year-end 543,003 people were insured with Varma.ref name=VarmaFS2020

2. Corrected company names:
 * Varma started its operations in July 1998 when Pension Sampo and around two thirds of Pension Varma merged
 * -> Varma started its operations in July 1998 when Eläke-Sampo and around two thirds of Eläke-Varma merged

3. Added a reason for a company name change:
 * Varma-Sampo changed its name to Varma on 31 December 2003.
 * -> Varma-Sampo changed its name to Varma on 31 December 2003.ref name=Kaleva20030616 The new name not only highlighted the longest line in the company's history, but also made a difference in Sampo, which was expanding abroad and remained the holder of Varma's guarantee capital.ref name=hannikainen

4. A significant merge in 2020: In 2020, some Finnish private pension funds merged with Varma. In total, more than 900 million euros of the assets of pension funds were transferred to Varma and the company's investment assets increased to a record high of 50.2 billion euros. The year of covid-19 made investing challenging and the return on the year was 2.8 percent.ref name = MT20210219

5. More about 2020 figures: Varma's investment assets amounted to approximately 20.2 billion euros in 2020 and its returns exceeded 5.2 billion euros.ref name=HS20210219 Of the investment categories, the best performers were general government bonds, equity investments and real estate investments. Hedge funds were loss-making and Varma announced that it would reduce their relative share in its investment portfolio.Ref name = KL20210219

6. Additions to Social responsibility: Varma divested its investments in coal and oil. At the end of 2020, Varma did not own shares of coal-producing mining companies, coal-based power generation companies nor oil drilling companies.ref In 2021, Varma announced its goal to recycle all demolition waste generated in the renovation and construction of its properties by 2025. In 2021, it was aiming to a recycling rate of 70%.ref

So what should we do with these changes? Can I add them back or is someone else willing do to that? Jjanhone (talk) 09:25, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Jjanhone, the result of your suggestions would be to turn the article into a reflection of the company's website. There's no need for Wikipedia to update every detail. SarahSV (talk) 17:53, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * , 1. Is fine and relevant to the company's operations. 2. The current source for that part doesn't seem to talk about the circumstances of its founding at all? 3. is a bit unclear. "The new name [...] history," sounds very promotional and I don't understand the second part of the sentence. 4. "The year of covid-19 made investing..." is not that relevant and I would not include returns at all, since that is usually not done either. 5. Irrelevant, too detailed. 6. Can be added - CSR section is already long, but given that their actions received independent coverage, inclusion would be due. Best, Caius G. (talk) 18:25, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Caius G., can you say what you mean by "independent" coverage. Some of the coverage will consist of the company issuing a press release and news organizations summarizing its contents. SarahSV (talk) 18:45, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Added 1 back.Jjanhone (talk) 09:30, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Added 2 back. I found a new source (only an internal one but as this is very crucial fact I think it should be used) for the portions of the founded company. This same error with sourcing was found also from the Finnish article, I corrected it there too. Thanks for being so careful Caius G.. Jjanhone (talk) 09:51, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * About the part 3. This is what the source says: "Varma-Sampo changed its name to Varma at the end of 2003. The name change reflected the earnings-related pension company’s independence and its split from Sampo, which was expanding abroad but still remained Varma’s guarantee capital owner. After several years had passed since the restructuring, the activities with the longest roots in the company’s history could once again be highlighted." I said it like this: "The new name not only highlighted the longest line in the company's history, but also made a difference in Sampo, which was expanding abroad and remained the holder of Varma's guarantee capital." Is this better "The new name highlighted the longest line in the company's history, and made a difference to Sampo, even though it still remained the holder of Varma's guarantee capital."? Jjanhone (talk) 10:44, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Added 4 partially back leaving the covid-19 thing out.Jjanhone (talk) 10:47, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Skipped 5 and added 6. Thanks Caius G. for your comments!Jjanhone (talk) 10:55, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Independent not for the purpose of WP:RS/V but notability - the website still chose to cover Varma's move. I still believe the section could do with some pruning, I'll get to it later. Best, Caius G. (talk) 11:34, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Paid template
According to the policy "if you place the Paid tag, you should promptly start a discussion on the article's talk page to explain what is non-neutral about the article." As a paid editor I'm not allowed to remove the tag myself, but if any volunteer editor thinks that the neutral point of view of the article is ok, they are free to remove the tag as told in the Template:Paid contributions instructions: "If you do not start this discussion, then any editor is justified in removing the tag without warning."Jjanhone (talk) 17:25, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi, I think the point is that you should stop editing the article or suggesting so much content. SarahSV (talk) 17:48, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Paid template is not used for that purpose. But if you are against my editing, would you like to revert to this version which presents the status before I started editing this article? Jjanhone (talk) 09:12, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Per your suggestion, I have reverted the article to the state it was in before you began editing it. I suggest you return whatever money they paid you. Beyond My Ken (talk) 11:12, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * It was not a suggestion but a Rhetorical question.Jjanhone (talk) 11:21, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Then you should be careful about posing rhetorical questions in a situation where your position is as tenuous as yours is. Beyond My Ken (talk) 11:26, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The paid editing template is used to show that there has been paid editing to this article. If you stop paid editing, this will no loner be a problem. Please stop thinking that you are a member of the Wikipedia community in good standing; you are not.  As a paid editor. you are paid by other people to edit articles, and intrinsically do not have Wikipedia's best interests as your primary interest.  The most that can be said is that you try to write the articles in such a way as they will not be noticed as being non-neutral and biased.  That's why the articles you have edited are blatantly promotional and biased; many are tagged as being written like advertisements.   You do not improve Wikipedia, you sully it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 11:09, 25 March 2021 (UTC)