Talk:Vasilis Leventis

POV
This article falls outside the scope of Wikipedia; it's pretty much an advertisement for Leventis or a like press release of his party. Some of his points are simply ridiculus, like "Leventis' typewriter"... His influence on the Greek society is merely negligible (0,56% of the greek vote countrywide, see the last election results from an official source). The article also propagates Leventis' POV that there is a conspiracy by the greek media against him, and these allegations are far from being proved. Etz Haim 05:14, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

If you have any proof that there is no war by the media barons against mr. Vassilis Leventis I would be happy to listen to it. But. You were not in 1993 in Channel 40 headquarters neither in Malgara accident. So, please, because a lot of people were in both incidents. Also, I think is very easy for you to say that is ridiculus the "typewriter" information but whatever you may say, it is a lie. Because Vasslis Leventis was at the struggle against the bloody Junta and used his typewriter. For all of these there are proofs and if you want you can go to Enosi Kentroon, Karolou 28 - Athens/Greece, to see them for your self.


 * I don't have anything against Leventis and his party, but I think an encyclopedic article should be balanced and reflect the facts. My presentation of the facts is based on what's widely known about him, and does not rely on propagatory material, so I don't need to take a trip to your headquarters. If you, however, can provide reliable data about Leventis' being part of the anti-junta resistance, and present it in a matter that respects common sense, I'd be glad to have that in the article. Etz Haim 23:15, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * No, I'm sorry, it's extremely difficult to prove a war *doesn't* exist. It's on your part to prove that such a war exists. More to the point, rather than try to prove a war exist, detail the specific *facts* of the case, and let the readers decide by themselves. Statements however about the terrible fear that the media barons or the political elite are feeling about Leventis are completely out of the line -- you are not in their heads, so you don't know their emotions. Likewise statements about the supposed growing influence Leventis has over the greek population -- do you have facts (opinion polls, election results, so forth) to support those statements? Same about how important Leventis "typewriter" was during the junta. What are you backing the statement on its painfullness for the junta on?


 * This is Wikipedia. You have to include facts and facts only, not present opinions as if they were facts, not even present your *conclusions* as if they were undisputed. I'm sure your conclusion is that there's a merciless war going on against Leventis. But that's far from an undisputed fact. It's simply your *opinion*. And as such, if there's a place for it in Wikipedia, it's only in the form of the *opinion* of some of Leventis' supporters.


 * Moreover you can't claim that the Union of Centrists "is" the political continuance of the "centrist expression" in Greece. That's again another opinion. Aris Katsaris 19:31, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This is an akward situation, as Vassilis Leventis is the subject that I'd least expect to become an edit war subject. I honestly believe that Leventis and his party should be respected and have their fair share of publicity, but please be reasonable: This is not just Leventis' problem, every small party everywhere in the word has that, and not as a result of conspiracy! Why should I have to prove anything as obvious as that? That regarding to the comments you've made here and on my talk page.

I also want you to know that I've asked other users to comment on this. Etz Haim 17:51, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Ok. So, you believe that I propagate for Leventis. Ok. Then that's what I'm gonna do. Keep your fault information page. I delete my information page and just let the link to Union of Centrists website for people to judge if Leventis is worth or not for. Simply and democratic. And something else. I have to say that I am very very sorry because the Freedom of this encyclopedia is being used by people who are professional lie tellers. (That, because you propably have never touched or seen from a short distance the head scar Leventis have from Malgara accident, or you have never seen the rocks PASOK supporters throw him in Kalithea incident. If thats your democracy, have it. Facts like these make me want to leave from "democratic" Greece - and probably someday I'll do because I'm not proud either as a Thessaloniki citizen or Greek citizen [it would be more usefull my vote to a Kerry-like democrat than to any party here]. And as a last one, tell me if you have ever seen any interview of Leventis in the mainstream press media the last 10 years and then maybe I will start to believe that he may lies.) Quantis

Quantis
(bad english) Troll ==

'If you have any proof that there is no war by the media barons against mr. Vassilis Leventis I would be happy to listen to it. But. You were not in 1993 in Channel 40 headquarters neither in Malgara accident. So, please, because a lot of people were in both incidents. Also, I think is very easy for you to say that is ridiculus the "typewriter" information but whatever you may say, it is a lie. Because Vasslis Leventis was at the struggle against the bloody Junta and used his typewriter. For all of these there are proofs and if you want you can go to Enosi Kentroon, Karolou 28 - Athens/Greece, to see them for your self.'
 * so, how did he use it? as ammunition? did he club the dictator Papadopoulos on the head with it? Ok, your english sucks. I have said all i have to say in your talk page as well as in Etz's talk page. I vote that the article stands as is right now.
 * Project2501a 15:00, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Vassilis Leventis:Quantis reply
There's an edit dispute on Vassilis Leventis (not kidding) between User:Quantis and me, which has led into two versions of the article, one his and one mine. Please review them and comment on it. Thank you. Etz Haim 17:38, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Until you find proof that you are not an elephant/troll, I will assume you are one. :)

I don't know the term "troll", except if you refer to the mythical creatures.

"didn't changed" ???? wtf?? Who the heck taught you English? By the way, posting in the English wikipedia requires a good command of the english language. It is clear, judging by your writing style as set forth in the history of the article on Mr. Leventis and in this post, that you do not possess such a command.

For example, you translated the word αποδείξεις (ουσιαστικό) into 'proofs'. In Greek, yes, you use plural to refer to proof. But you cannot simply translate the word proof and concatenate an s. Proofs in English does not refer to the evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true; it reffers to book proofing and original prints of a book. I think you would be better off editing in the Greek wikipedia (http://el.wikipedia.org).

'''That's not your business. Also you may have to respect others and not insult them, if you don't know them. Writing an article in Wikipedia is entirely different by answering to someones opinion quickly. So, please...'''

Responsibility of bringing forth proof of a "conspiracy" lies with those that claim said conspiracy exists, not the other way. You are the one accusing the greek media of a conspiracy. What you are doing is crying wolf. You sound like a Christan Right Winger from the US or Christodoulos preaching in Sunday Mass about the evils of homosexuality: Screaming bloody murder and not offering any proof of how you're being put down.

Calm down and give us FACTS and public records. Pointing out the non-existance of something and offering is as proof is a logical fallacy and it is circumstantial evidence at best. Give solid examples, back by dates and your article can be restored. Till then, your article gets an Negative POV from me.

'''Ok. I challenge you. Find in the mainstream greek public press interviews with representatives from other parties than the first 4-5 in national elections. Until then keep for your self democracy lessons.'''

What you are implying is that simply because a page has a controversial topic someone has to change it. What you are talking about is retaliation. Etz didn't retaliate against you. He edited an article he thought had a partisan point of view. You changed it back and then you demanded that your point of view is the only one that's true. The way things are done in wikipedia is that an article is posted and people then edit and re-edit and re-edit it, and talk about it and discuss it, till a consensus is developed. Obviously, you're just interesting in hearing only your own point of view.

I would love to hear alternative voices in the Greek media. Nobody's trying to stop you from creating an article about Mr. Leventis. A lot of people, though, are going to prevent you from making an article FOR Mr. Leventis. The point of Wikipedia is that you write your articles using perspective, which you do not exhibit.

'''Hmmm. Where excactly in my article I wrote something FOR Leventis? Mr. Etz Haim wrote:'''

Some of his points are simply ridiculus, like "Leventis' typewriter"...

'''Yes. Mr. Leventis used a typerwriter during the Junta and typed messages of freedom distributing them all over Athens. That's a fact.'''

His influence on the Greek society is merely negligible (0,56% of the greek vote countrywide, see the last election results from an official source (http://ekloges.ypes.gr/en/)).

'''If Mr. Etz Haim wanted to write an article ABOUT Mr. Leventis why he didn't write all elections history of Enosi Kentroon but only the result of the last one? Mr. Leventis 1992 was elected second in the Second Electoral District of Athens after PASOK's candidate mr Mangakis and he received 100.000 and more votes (30%, of the District's population - which is the bigger in Greece). Also, Enosi Kentroon, is the only "small" greek party that its members run offices for it in USA and Germany (not so small now, huh?). A US Senator, mr Feingold and the famous by civil rights campaigns, Jesse Jackson are positive to Enosi Kentroon and Vassilis Leventis struggle for democracy. (so, this party is getting bigger...) You may say WHY I say now all these and I didn't add them in the article first time? Ok. I had not the time to do it. There is any proof for all these? Yes there is. Call mr Feingold and mr Jackson if you have doubts. So. Now, if I even admit that wrote an article FOR mr Leventis, mr Etz Haim wrote an article AGAINST mr Leventis. Why you don't say anything for that?'''

The article also propagates Leventis' POV that there is a conspiracy by the greek media against him, and these allegations are far from being proved. Etz Haim 05:14, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

You are displaying signs of Trolling, a troll with a political agenda. I wouldn't have responded to you inside Etz's talk page, normaly, because ITS BAD PRACTICE TO DO SO, but you went and screwed with my happy birthday wish.

Sorry for screwing your happy birthday wish.

So, this is a warning.

Huh?

Quantis

I'm tired
Ok. I give up. I'm tired with all these.

Apologies
I am sorry about "Vassilis Leventis" article. Yes, the article was not NPOV. Please also accept my apologies for trolling behaviour. I also restored my talk page as it is appropriate. quantis 12:20, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The phrase: "However such allegations have not been confirmed."
Since there is the proof of the political extermination of Vassilis Leventis from Panos Panagiotopoulos I strongly dissaggree with the phrase: "However such allegations have not been confirmed." and therefore I suggest to full delete it. I express my dissagreement with striking a line on the phrase. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.16.183.11 (talk) 10:54, 16 January 2007 (UTC).

Interview
The whole interview paragraph was ridiculous, as if it were the highlight of his political career. Its title was also extremely POV. Guys like Leventis live off conspiracy theories and actually suffer under severe persecution mania. WP standards require though a bit more than a moving description of a bad journalist making bad jokes as proof that established media and politicians are trying to destroy Leventis.--Archidamus 15:36, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I removed it again. It was almost as long as the rest of the article. Was it that important for Mr. Leventis, that he once appeared in a mainstream tv show?--Archidamus 17:02, 13 March 2007 (UTC)