Talk:Vegetable oil fuel

"Biodiesel" vs. "Vegetable oil fuel"
Every producer of what Wikipedia calls "vegetable oil fuel" refers to the product as "Biodiesel." Every documentary I have ever seen calls the product "Biodiesel" as well, and I have never seen any mention, anywhere except Wikipedia, the distinction between "vegetable oil fuel" and "biodiesel." It really seems to me like Wikipedia is trying to invent its own standard, which does not seem to exist anywhere except Wikipedia. Can someone explain this rationale? - Artificial Silence (talk) 00:50, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why you're commenting when you clearly haven't read both articles or their respective sources; there are plenty of reliable sources that draw distinction between the two. Biodiesel (mono-alkyl esters) is a chemical derivative of vegetable oil or animal fat (lipids).  As mentioned in this article, there are even governmental bodies that draw distinction between the two for taxation/use.--E8 (talk) 01:30, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Citation needed?
the article contained :

"As of 2000, the United States was producing in excess of 11 billion liters of waste vegetable oil annually, mainly from industrial deep fryers in potato processing plants, snack food factories and fast food restaurants."

Where do you get this information from? It does not look remotely plausible. The USDA says total consumption of fresh vegetable oil in the US is just over 3 billion gallons. When you take away what is absorbed in food (most of it), loss from processing etc. you are left with at most 400 million gallons a year. Potato chip manufacturers produce less than 3% waste. This article is seriously misleading. US petroleum usage in 2008 is 20.4 million barrels a day (230 billion gallons/year) (http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_cons_wpsup_k_w.htm). So UCO might if it was all used in cars replace 0.17% of US petroleum consumption. No utopia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.83.220 (talk) 07:19, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I added : "If all those 11 billion liters could be collected and used to replace the energetically equivalent amount of petroleum (a rather utopical case), almost 1% of US oil consumption could be offset."

And someone ojected : [citation needed]... i'm quite puzzled. What i wrote is a unit conversion (from tons to barrels) and a division (this amoun/total US petroleum used). what reference could I provide? My calculator? --86.196.55.231 09:01, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

- Maybe a citation of the current US petroleum usage? Natronomonas 11:47, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Home heating

Under the Home Heating heading, it might be worthwhile to include a link to Cogeneration. At the home level, this can be implemented by running a diesel generator on Waste Vegetable Oil and reclaiming the heat contained in the engine coolant and/or exhaust to help heat your house and hot water tank. Sygen 14:28, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, I agree, and a mention of similar commercial and agricultural heating and electricity generation should be mentioned as well, along with a cross-link to raw bio-methane which is often used in similar capacity dating back to early 1900s. Also how early raw vegetable oil was used for heat and light does need mention, but someone needs to find a usable reference of an early stone tablet documenting this.--RuediiX 13:29, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

EPA Who put the line in about the EPA? AFAIK, WVO can be used privately (i.e. not registered as a fuel, and therefore not sold). Cowbert 09:04, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Mythbusters
In an episode of Mythbusters, they took used cooking oil, filtered it, and were able to run a car on it (see: MythBusters (season 3) ). Should this be mentioned in the article? 151.203.179.248 00:57, 11 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure if there's any information in that episode that isn't already mentioned here. Malamockq 03:31, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed, it's information is duplicate, but there is a significant and rational to mentioning it. A recent well publicized preliminary experiment resulting in favor, but not complete enough to be conclusive, such as that one has significance in one manner.  Primarily, the argument that research into the practicality of use of raw vegetable oils is being suppressed by those funding large-scale research seems a little more true after such facts.
 * I would recommend putting this test next to the comment of the first experiments being all the way back in the 1900s, but let's wait until more discussion is on the topic. RuediiX 12:30, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I run a 1993 Peugeot 306 XNd, which has an XUD9 engine. This runs perfectly well on vegetable oil in an unmodified state. At the time I was actually running it like this, (2008), diesel was approx. £1.30 per litre, whereas I could buy NEW cooking oil for as little as £0.56 per litre. (Used oil was obviously cheaper when available.) My intention was to run the unmodified car on a 50/50 mix of diesel and oil, after asking around. Due to being skint, I ran it on almost pure oil for a while, and eventually blew the (Lucas) injector pump. I worked out that I could afford to replace this four times a year (at garage rates) and still save money on buying diesel... Since then, new cooking oil has appeared to take quite a jump to the point where it is dearer than diesel. BTW, "Top Gear" once demonstrated that you can deal with the viscosity problem by using about 3% non spirit based solvent. As an aside, it is apparently possible to run diesels on liquid paraffin, (cheaper), but you need to add a small amount of lubricant oil, as it strips the engine of oil as it runs. Some taxi companies in the UK have illegally done this, but normally using older cars, as the life of the engine may be adversely affected.82.6.1.85 (talk) 21:51, 9 June 2010 (UTC)Lance Tyrell

Two Zlternatives
The Water Car

The Government recently gave a 500,000,000.00 dollar grant to a company to develop a car that runs on water. (not needing hydrogen stations) It was on FOX and Friends, as a very quick mention, about May 13, 2006. For 40 years the IMF and WBO ignored Daniel Dingle the Filipino inventor that found a way to convert cars to run on water. (not even needing hydrogen stations)


 * Yes I believe that recent research was more accurately putting a hydrogen station in your garage. The result was less than spectacular, mainly in cost issues. However, it still showed some potential for small commercial fleets.


 * Personally, I wonder how it costs a half billion dollars to design a machine for basic hydrolysis of of household current, when I could probably sketch one up in 30 minutes flat that just uses a recycled circuit from an arch wielder power supply, a lead acid battery case, an air compressor, and a standard hydrogen-gas fuel system, but that's a whole different issue better discussed on a political blog, if you catch my drift.


 * Honda has a more cost effective solution for home hydrolysis out in field-test already, and it will be priced in the luxury car budget. These solutions do deserve mention elsewhere, and such pages do need to be hub-linked to a central "non-petroleum fuels" page.--RuediiX 13:10, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The Air Car

In production now, an engine capable of propelling a car up to 110 Km/h, that can cover a distance of 300 km with one compressed air tank refill at a cost of 50 cents. Not only providing "zero pollution" but also purifying the air. ... http://www.theaircar.com
 * The torque consuming stop-and-go city driving of many gas-guzzling countries like the US hardly makes such solutions practical, and claims of cleaning the air is like making such claims about a vacuum cleaner. You do the math.


 * This idea is also hardly new. Similar compressed gas engines have also been used to power radio control vehicles, allowing much smaller engines than are possible with standard "glow" fuel, this has been obsoleted by the newer electric motors which give far better throttle control with the same or more torque.


 * I must say still, compressed gas engines are also noteworthy on a "non-petroleum fuels" section which should be hub-linked to all such fuels for easy cross reference. --RuediiX 13:10, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

_________________________________ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.173.209.135 (talk) 18:10, 12 February 2007 (UTC).


 * "Zero pollution"?? The compressed air tanks are not filled with magically-prexisting compressed air.  They are, in all likeliness, running a gasoline engine to force compressed air into the tank.  Pointless.  Jwigton 02:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Recent tests in Japan
Recently, there has been a lot of news about a small fleet of buses using spent oil used to cook Tempura (a popular Japanese food) as fuel, in the manner described on this page. They claim significant decreases in poisonous emissions, and prices comparable with regular diesel, given the fact that there are only a handful of pumps in the whole country. Can anyone find any information about this and maybe add it to the article? I also came across this page looking for some information on the reasons why vegetable oil shouldn't be used instead of diesel, but I couldn't find any. Is that because there are none? What reasons do the US gov. and others have for not keeping such practices legal? 210.138.109.72 23:38, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

False and Misleading
In the History section, the second sentence, "When Rudolf Diesel invented the diesel engine, he designed it to run on peanut oil but it was soon discovered that it would operate on cheaper petroleum oil." is false.

Rudolf Diesel: Pioneer in the Age of Power, Nitske and Wilson, p. 87 -

“The fuel oil first chosen for the tests was a tar-like Pechelbrenner - raw oil. This unrefined, very heavy hydrocarbon was a thick brown mass which would not flow through the slender fuel lines at ordinary temperatures.”

also

Diesel: Technology and Society in Industrial Germany, D. Thomas, p. 143 -

“The very first fuel used,a crude oil, proved to be totally inadequate, and tests proceeded with gasoline and kerosene.”

Rudolf diesel did in his later years support and promote the use of vegetable oils, but it was not his idea nor did he design the engine for that purpose.

The French Otto company demonstrated the diesel engine at the the Wolds Fair.

Rudolf Diesel: Pioneer in the Age of Power, Nitske and Wilson, p. 139 - “At the Paris exposition of 1900, a Diesel engine, built by the French Otto Company ran wholly on peanut oil.”

Diesel didn't do studies of vegetable oils until later in his life.

From a paper to the Institution of Mechanical Engineers (of Great Britain) in March 1912 from the paper Historical perspectives on vegetable oil-based diesel fuels

“the author assumed the trials a few months ago. It has been proved that Diesel engines can be worked on earth-nut oil without any difficulty”

A good paper on this all of this is: http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/20011101_gen-346.pdf

Emissions
This entry needs information on emissions. I've read a few studies that indicate veg oil, burnt as fuel, can produce highly-carcinogenic emissions. This needs to be discussed, debated, refuted... and added to the main page. See this link for an example study (there are at least two I know of): http://www.bv-pflanzenoele.de/pdf/ArchTox.pdf E8 04:21, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Engine Effects
This entry needs more information on the effects of vegetable oil on engines. See here, http://www.uidaho.edu/bioenergy/Bioshortcourse/Rawoil.htm, for a list of studies along with the summary: [Even with heating of the oil,] "long-term durability has not been proven."E8 04:21, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm finding more studies that indicate vegetable oil can be used as fuel, without problem, if setup is done properly. I'll link some of these soon.--E8 (talk) 20:44, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Emission standards effective starting in 2007 caused all US car manufacturers to install exhaust particulate filters on diesel engines. These filters must be periodically purged. This is accomplished by injecting fuel into the combustion cylinder during the exhaust stroke so that it is forced into the filter and burned turning the particulates to ash. Unfortunately both vegetable oil and biodiesel are not completely vaporized in the cylinder and leave residue on the cylinder wall. If this residue migrates past the piston rings it will mix with the engine oil and void the engine warranty. Sygen (talk) 14:02, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Proposed merge
Articles on Greasecar and Vegetable oil used as fuel are a huge overlap and essentially are about the same thing. There is a claim at Talk:Greasecar that content will eventually diverge, but that comment was from a year ago and the topics are still close to 100% overlap. -- Whpq 19:46, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I second the merger. I'd also recommend removing any and all advertisements from the pages.E8 20:47, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The merger would dilute both the Greasecar (a company, not the generic name of a car) and the SVO article. In fact, to me they seem to be subtopics to either Biofuels (SVO) or Flexible-fuel vehicle (Greasecar).Rhetth 03:44, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Discussion appears to be a "stale" mate, deleted merge tag. Mirboj (talk) 06:53, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * My previous reply to Rhetth was deleted. Since Greasecar is a company, is it allowed to have its own WP page? If not, the page itself is subject to deletion, not merger. What/where are the Wikipedia guidelines? E8 (talk) 01:18, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I have worked with these technologies for years and as I understand it there is nothing particularly different about greasecar equipment - they are just one of many companies offering modification equipment that allows diesel engines to run on vegetable oil. They are the biggest company in the US (I think).  There are other companies in Europe with far more ground breaking technologies.  To me it appears to be an attempt to give a name to the technique of modifying vehicles - that name happens to already belong to a commercial entity.....

Manufacturers warranty
It should be noted that GM, Ford, Mercedes and VW all forbid the use of any form of vegetable oil (SVO, WVO, or homebrew BioDiesel) in their cars unless it's commercially sold B5 BioDiesel. Cummins being the exception as it allows B20 in it's newer engines. Using vegetable oils or BioDiesel higher in percentage than allowed is a violation of the warranty terms. This would likely result in the fuel/engine system warranty being voided or denial of a warranty claim.

Cite or Die
Heh, now that I have your attention... The citation tag applied to the sentence "The conversion of an automobile engine to burn vegetable oil is not legal under US Environmental Protection Agency guidelines" was added in February 2007. This is too long for uncited information to remain on here.

I deleted it rather than asking someone to find proof (which is what the tag has been asking for half a year). If you can reference it, feel free to add it back. The original statement is this:

"The conversion of an automobile engine to burn vegetable oil is not legal under US Environmental Protection Agency guidelines [citation needed]. The EPA has not fined anyone for doing so, but certain laws may have to change — or a certification process may need to be established — before VO conversions become more popular in the US."

Jwigton 02:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Because of the potential for increased emissions, it is considered unlawful tampering to convert a vehicle designed for diesel fuel to operate on waste oil without EPA certification. To date, EPA has not certified any conversions for waste oils.

http://www.epa.gov/OMS/renewablefuels/420b07019.pdf

Etaireia (talk) 17:12, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Cleanup tag, possible WP:NOR?
There seem to be a number of unsourced statements in this article that would violate WP:NOR without sources. For example:
 * The UK exported 280 000 tonnes of rapeseed in 2005. If the UK used just its set aside land it could reach its 5% biofuel target without the need for exotic and environmentally damaging oil crop imports.

This statement seems to violate WP:NOR by stating that the UK could reach its 5% biofuel target by using set aside land to grow more rapeseed crops. Additionally, it uses a loaded statement to call oil crop imports "environmentally damaging" without any additional facts or references to back it up. I am tagging this article with for now, until sources can be found or the unsourced numbers and statements removed. Zzxc 05:02, 12 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Deleted the "citation needed" sections then deleted the citation tag.Mirboj (talk) 06:56, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Replaced "Citations Needed" and "Merge" tags as they are still relevant. Much of this page is without a source. I suspect this is because there are relatively few third-party, non-commercial entities participating in the Veg Oil for fuel industry. The heat/power example illustrates this perfectly; it's a quick search to find a vendor for such an item, but finding a peer-reviewed publication isn't so simple. Since linking commercial sources that advertising a company or product isn't acceptable, no suitable source may be cited, yet the information quite factual.E8 (talk) 00:59, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * E8, regarding merger, the discussion appeared to be dormant; will this article be improved by a merger? your point seems to relate to a problem with the other site. Regarding the citations needed tag, and my deletions, again the discussion appeared dormant, and those sections labled "citation needed", in my opinion, didn't add enough to the article to warrant including them and thus tagging the entire article.  Are there other sections you find problematic?, if none and you find the "information quite factual",  why label the article with the "citations needed" header?  Especially, as you point out, the emerging nature of this topic.Mirboj (talk) 03:02, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * You're correct, Mirboj. It is the Greasecar page that I feel needs to be eliminated. It's a bit of a dead issue though, as I'm unclear what the procedure for doing so is and no one else has shown interest in assisting with the removal / partial merger. I'm working on adding some reputable sources to this page over the next few months. This is at least a step in the right direction.--E8 (talk) 20:55, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Deutz "natural fuel" engines / tractors
A new and seemingly important development has been made by Deutz. They're marketing a duel tank tractor and engine specifically designed to operate on rapeseed oil (even unprocessed, cold-pressed). Clearly this needs to be incorporated into the main, as this is the first-of-its-kind development.--E8 (talk) 20:52, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

svo vs global warming
I want to make an article straightening out the svo vs. global warming belief. Although it is true that burning svo is carbon neutral meaning it is not producing more CO2 than is taken in, the belief is that converting all vehicles to run svo will therefore end global warming. However, the truth is that if all vehicles were replaced with svo running vehicles, there would physically not be enough land on the earth to produce the amount of svo the world would need. Information from

-So i've tried to find some articles to support this claim. I intend to change my wording and say that "it is unlikely that we have the needed arable land to produce the amount of crops needed to replace fossil fuels." let me know if there is anything else i need to keep a post like this up without being erased. I know a lot of the information being tossed around is referring to biodiesel, but i figure for this particular issue, svo and biodiesel can be interchangeably used as the indicator.

-quote from Dr. Tad Patzek of UC Berkley -Production of biodiesel within UK. -Someone explaining the info of the UK stats with further sources. (message #295)

Please let me know if this is acceptable. --Longbutshort (talk) 21:25, 17 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think that is either true, acceptable, or supported by reliable references. If you look at 600 gallons/acre/year for palm oil and how much fuel is needed per year and figure out that it is far from all the land.  Also, if algae works out it could be making 10,000 gallons/acre/year.  So I don't think your "truth" is the truth.  Vincecate (talk) 02:55, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi. Thanks for discussing before making a larger edit/addition (always a nice thing). Regarding this matter, there is a tremendous amount of media speculation regarding this subject, and the section would need a [|controversial article] template. If you have solid, less-speculative sources, particularly scientific ones, they are welcome and needed. Feel free to post a proposal here or link your sandbox. You should definitely get the green light from at least one other editor before proceeding. Also, I was kind enough to delete your email (you shouldn't list them on public forums). Oh, and always sign your posts like this->--E8 (talk) 22:48, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Global perception

 * I removed this content from the main. It needs a bit of editing to comply with the Wikipedia guidelines for encyclopedic content. The weasel words must go, and the writing made more concise. Perception is temporal in nature, an specifically disqualified under guidelines. Perhaps this discussion should be split into two discussions, limitations of oil yield from agriculture, and carbon footprint, as has been done on the Biodiesel page:
 * "There is a lot of media speculation going around that replacing fossil fuels with SVO and biofuels will solve the problem of global warming. The belief is that using biofuels will stop the extra emission of CO2 because biofuels are carbon neutral, meaning that they emit the same amount of CO2 which gets taken in by the initial crop. There are two things wrong with this idea. First off, current research has indicated that biofuels are not entirely carbon neutral because the process to gather and create biofuels uses a large amount of fossil fuels due to its cheap price. Secondly, it is very unlikely that there is enough arable land in the world to create the amount of crops needed to fuel vehicles and feed the people of the world at the same time. "Realistically we might be able to replace 5% of our current oil consumption with biofuels.” says Dr. Tad Patzek, University of California-Berkeley. This study was also done in the UK using rapeseeds yielding similar results. Although this does not solidify anything, it seems that for now, we need to find ways to generate pure carbon neutral fuels as well as alternatives to combat global warming."--E8 (talk) 07:13, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Can someone help me to make this usable? This is my first contribution and I understand my writing skills are not up to encyclopedia standards. --Longbutshort (talk) 14:55, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes! We're here to help each other. I'm buried work at the moment, but as soon as I can give my brain a bit of a rest, I'll see how I can help. You can always ask other editors active on this page for assistance, too. (Write to their talk pages.)--E8 (talk) 16:39, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Citation 5, typical cost of WVO vehicle conversion
I don't think this statement can be made based on the one newspaper article. There isn't really a "typical" cost as I understand it. Some people weld up tanks and pipe them in in the garage for next to nothing, others buy kits for well over $1200 total. Some statement to that effect would be a good replacement for that statement/citation? That article would be more appropriately be used in the tax issues section. Ismellfish2 (talk) 19:02, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Recent non-notable post deletion
Regarding the pizza delivery addition to this page, it is not notable by Wikipedia definition. See the "Significant coverage" and "Sources" discussion in particular. From this page: Wikipedia is not a news source: it takes more than just a short burst of news reports about a single event or topic to constitute evidence of sufficient notability. The Wikimedia project Wikinews covers topics of present news coverage. Further, the addition was also not properly sourced, so no peer-review of your work could be completed. Generally, any unsourced material on Wikipedia will generally be removed quickly if challenged. The burden is on the author to properly cite and read Wikipedia rules when posting.--E8 (talk) 04:32, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Legality
Canada:

Why is the excise tax exemption on biodiesel mentioned here? Vegetable oil and biodiesel are not the same fuels.

Etaireia (talk) 17:19, 1 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I added the weasel words "which is usually derived from vegetable oil" to "get around" the fact that biodiesel isn't VO. I think legality of biodiesel does pertain to legality of VO to some reasonable degree.  I think it shows legislators' and enforcers' attitudes toward encouraging non-petroleum sources of fuel.  I didn't want to just delete the entry to "fix" it.  Any other ideas?


 * -- Gummer85 (talk) 23:19, 2 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with Etaireia, and have removed the reference to biodiesel. The fuels in question are not the same, nor are the regulations and taxation schemes that apply to them (in most countries). This content was moved to the Biodiesel by region page, so there is no loss of Wikipedia content from this change.--E8 (talk) 16:26, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Removed from article
This was removed from the article, but seems legitimate to me: Organized collection and processing of waste cooking oil began in the United States in the 1920's when serious shortages of vegetable oil occurred. Demand for fats and oils skyrocketed during WWI and WWII due to several factors: Nitroglycerin, made from fats and oils, was used to make bombs and cordite to fight the war. Sales of margarine, made from vegetable oil, skyrocketed due to price and military use. And Rudolph Diesel's diesel engines burned peanut oil. Today nearly 100% of all waste cooking oil is purchased from restaurants. Diverting the waste product cooking oil to fuel use effectively convert food to fuel. ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:51, 29 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Right. It looks right, but there were numerous statements of fact that were unsupported.  Some statements were dubious.  The tone conveyed a non-neutral point of view.  But I've already said this in the edit summary.  The non-neutral tone cast doubt on the other seemingly neutral-toned statements made (such as "...began in 20's...").  The non-neutral tone increases the need for good justification of the comparatively neutral statements that went with it.  The text is also haphazard.  If someone wants to talk about the history of collecting waste fats to use as fuel, then fine as long as it's supported, and leave out the other crud.  But this text is preaching by someone with an obvious (defensive) point of view.


 * I apologize somewhat the new user who made the edit. Maybe I've been quick to criticize.  I saw the user had only ever made one edit, this one that I reverted.  My first edit was reverted too, also because it was unencyclopedic.  It's no big deal.  I quickly saw the reason's why my text was not suitable, then I was able to write better the next time.72.93.175.100 (talk) 05:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC)  (I'm a regular user not logged on right now)


 * Please take care to not bite newcomers. Also, take a deeper read of the WP:NPOV guidelines. The comments you reverted were not perfect, but were clearly not pushing a point of view (their is a notable lack of opinion/perspective), and should have been edited, removing weasel words, and tagged in accordance with Wiki procedures. Please make an attempt to correct and/or flag edits before you remove them wholesale.--E8 (talk) 16:04, 29 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I disagree fully. Fixing biased highly uncited(!) nonsense is a burden on all of us.  It is constantly reintroduced by usually well-meaning but overly "passionate" people.  It's inefficient to "fix it".  To fix it makes needless work for responsible editors.    I've wasted too much time "fixing" new bad passages to want to play games.  If it is simply reverted, it returns the monkey to the back of the person it belongs to.  You suggest that irresponsible writing should be fixed by the followers and main editors of the article?  Well, maybe if there are only one or two easy fixes.  But the text was full of bias, errors of form, and uncited claims, and it was haphazard in structure.  Let the original writer fix it.  If we don't "send it back" by reverting, the bad text risks staying for months.  In this case, the passage had some "reasonable sounding" lines which camouflaged the bad stuff and so it probably would have stuck around for months.  If it is reverted, all options are open.  The original writer can rewrite if he/she wants and so can anyone else.  If you want to revert the reversion, it's easy!  If you want to fix the text yourself before putting it back, also easy!  And, while you are fixing it, the dubious passage is not in place.


 * Revert, and get on with our lives, and let the ones who see a kernel of goodness in the text fix it offline.


 * I bit a presumed "newbee", but I backed off later. I might have been a little mean, but I recognize reactionary defensive state of mind when I see it.  It doesn't make for good copy, and it doesn't make me happy to have to deal with more of it.  I could have been nicer, maybe I was "defensive" myself, but I reserved my "passions" for a place that doesn't require gobs of extra work for others to fix.


 * 72.93.175.100 (talk) 19:02, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm done now. I gotta go. I'll be changing my IP address. Do whatever you want with the passage in question. It's not the end of the world for me if it gets put back, although it will make you look bad. :-) 72.93.175.100 (talk) 19:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Let's try to get it sourced and sorted out so it's accurate. There's an article on Rudolph Diesel, and one of the last sections says his engine ran on peanut oil (but isn't sourced). Is there a dispute about the 1920s collection assertion? Or that the demand for fats and oils skyrocketed during WWI? Did the collection of cooking oil begin earlier? Later? Is the statement that nearly "100% of all waste cooking oil is purchased from restaurants" inaccurate? Are there other problems with the content? I modified the above removed section slightly in the part that seems messed up to me. Can others tweak or cite it? ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:04, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The Rudolph/peanut oil sentence is now reliably cited on this page (with a detailed, well-researched source), as well as on Biodiesel and Rudolph Diesel. The above topics would fit in the history section, and any integration should take place there. I'll look around for reliable sources for the other content, and would appreciate if you could do the same. It appears that much of the similar content is unsourced and has been for some time, so any citations we can add will improve the page.--E8 (talk) 22:20, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Here's a link discussing the margarine price spike, and the Margarine page covers the topic as well (and has sources). I'm unsure why this lone product was singled out, as most oil and fat commodities would've been affected (basic economics), but it stands as an example (at least is the US). Here's a discussion touching on the use of glycerol for the war effort; Cordite is made from, in part, nitroglycerin, so there's an obvious link. The Nitroglycerin page also confirms some of the above summary. The statement regarding peanut oil is already in the history section, so it can be removed. Internal wikilinks, the above links, and perhaps, some additional links can solidify the remainder of the first paragraph. The last two sentences should be dropped unless reliable citations can be found.--E8 (talk) 01:55, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Cool. I looked about a bit and read the article to what's already there. A few points that I think are worth including: whether or not the 100% figure is correct, 1) recycled or used vegetable oil seems to be the major source for automotive and heating use. 2) It is filtered before it's resused. 3) the competitiveness of vegetable oil is related to gas prices, and when demand increases even the used stuff started to be worth something and to trade as commodity. 4) There are some limitations to using vegetable oil, such as the need to eat it before it can be used in winter temperatures. Some of these things are mentioned here and there, but I think they coul dbe made more explicit. Most of the stories I'm finding are of particular pioneers, so to speak, adopting vegetable oil use, but not much on widespread commercial or wholesale use. This article on a pilot program is a pretty good and up to date source . ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:58, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Commodity prices should be mentioned and, perhaps, summarized on this page, but details should be posted on the appropriate pages, Yellow grease and Brown grease. Regarding the 100% figure, it's incorrect; I suspect there is data on this for the US, and perhaps other nations as well. More, many restaurants continue to pay to have grease removed, versus having it purchased from them. Filtering seems more like a how-to issue, and is therefore, excluded. So long as the content can avoid reading like a how-to (i.e., listing steps, being too specific), this content could be included (some of it already is mentioned).--E8 (talk) 20:54, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Misleading and uncited?
This article states that for colder temperatures one must use heated fuel lines to prevent the fuel from gelling.

This is not cited, neither is the statement on "atomizing" the fuel. Some quick googling reveals that running 5% paint thinner in the tank works fine to prevent cold temperature gelling and more, but this is not the issue. A whole section of this article runs uncited, and I believe that for such claims to be made, they should be. Anyone opposed, and if not, anyone feel like finding cites? Scryer_360 (talk) 02:41, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Which section is in question? Notably, there's a section dedicated to vegetable oil blending, complete with peer-reviewed sources.--E8 (talk) 03:17, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Price
Perhaps this can be briefly mentioned (vegetable oil being a lot cheaper than petrodiesel, ie 0,6 euro vs 1,4 euro (on average)). Link to vegetable oil economy 91.182.37.177 (talk) 07:06, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
 * This is not true of UK where veg oil (in shops) is usually more expensive, although it can sometimes be found on 'special offer' - yesterday I found some at 35% less than Diesel 94.197.127.167 (talk) 12:18, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

UK tax
I don't currently have evidence, but the 2,500 litre pre-excise limit is still in place (July 2013). I may be back with evidence, but if anyone gets there before me that's good. 94.197.127.167 (talk) 12:19, 7 July 2013 (UTC)


 * It's hard to find a simple answer to this one. The legislation on the subject is a morass of confusion. The latest HMRC figures quote all biodiesels as being taxed the same as mineral diesel, but make no clear statement either way about the 2500 litre exemption.
 * I do think it's perhaps not good policy to be giving legal advice on WP unless that advice is verifiable. --Anteaus (talk) 12:03, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

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