Talk:Velites/GA2

GA Reassessment
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.''

I fixed the title to be bold and linked the singular to wikt (instead of the plural title). The reference template used a set number of columns (a minor point about them being deprecated) - fixed. This lead me to question the assessment A (for both projects):

I have my concerns partly about the size being small (more like a Start), but rather what was wrong style wise makes me question what I don't know about the content. I suggest a reassessment:

Immediate failures

 * Immediate failures Criteria 2&3. copyright close paraphrasing "The velites were placed in front of the array, then, partly so that the boldest of the velites could distinguish themselves by seeking out single combat with individual enemies."
 * What? I will admit, I am very close to asking for this to be closed as a bad faith GAR. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  01:37, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Sorry, User:Iazyges you're disputing

is not WP:PARAPHRASE?! (tip - see part that says even small sections with attibution may be) I discovered the close paraphrasing and tagged it, but then the tag was incorrectly removed twice  ! How exactly is that bad faith? Think you should retract that, and what impression do you think this leaves on an independent assessment when you're willing to sweep serious issues under the carpet, and then blame the messenger? Widefox ; talk 02:05, 25 January 2017 (UTC) :: It has been fixed. I would recommend you retract this assessment as you seem to have failed much of the initial steps outlined in WP:GAR. Iazyges  Consermonor   Opus meum  02:08, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
 * 1) "The velites were placed at the front of the maniples, so that the boldest of the velites had the opportunity to distinguish themselves by seeking out single combat with an enemy." ISBN 9780521782739
 * 2) "The velites were placed in front of the array, then, partly so that the boldest of the velites could distinguish themselves by seeking out single combat with individual enemies."

Fails

 * GA1b. essential MOS
 * Lede does summarise the content but still seems to act as the first section (some info is in the lede, but not in the body) maybe due to relatively large lede for small article
 * Ill be honest, I had worries the Lede looked Copy and pasted. Can you point out any discrepancies? Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  00:16, 25 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Title should only be bolded (not linked) - fixed (but when broken this was assessed as A, and such a departure from MOS should prevent B let alone GA or A), should the singular also be bolded? Possibly not (but it was me that switched the wikt links), so someone with domain knowledge may know better.
 * MOS:FORLANG gives an example that shows an unbolded singular. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  00:16, 25 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Other MOS issue - italic/singular titles per MOS (it is plural, with the singular now linking to wikt). I'm guessing it should be italic as from Latin, and used only for French? The source I saw had it in italics.
 * Italics for both, unless that latin word is commonly used in english (such as via, or vice versa). Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  00:16, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, so the article is wrong, and inconsistent with the list article where they're all italic. It also uses both uppercase and lowercase. Widefox ; talk

01:20, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
 * (New) Where do you see uppercase velites? Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  04:37, 25 January 2017 (UTC)


 * GA3a broad
 * What do they look like? (e.g. Signifer has a couple of photos)
 * ✅ Look at the image. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  00:16, 25 January 2017 (UTC)


 * A quick search finds "wore the lorica (coat of mail)...leathern jacket...drawers, sandals". The lede has "They rarely wore armour", with no details of what/if or their clothes (or range of outfits due to what they got their hands on financially).
 * ✅ ISBN 9780521782739 page 513 says that they could not afford the armor, ISBN 9781472816337 page 27 explicitly states that they did not wear armor. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  00:16, 25 January 2017 (UTC)


 * (bordering b) Legacy - if we're having a section, then half a line isn't enough, it would benefit being expanded from half a line as there's sources, clearly deficient in a non-core part
 * ✅ Moved to another section. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  00:16, 25 January 2017 (UTC)


 * GA6a/
 * some, but not enough to illustrate - nothing on their appearance
 * ✅ If you had looked at my response, or the article you would see an illustration of there appearance. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  00:16, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Neutral

 * Immediate failures Criteria 3. section expand tag on Legacy - either it's important enough for it's own section so an instant fail / Fail GA2a broad or not essential but cannot be easily merged into another section (non-fail)
 * ✅ Moved to another section. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  00:16, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Passes

 * GA2 pass
 * GA4 pass
 * GA5 pass

Context

 * I personally would have rated a C, so I've assessed for the Classical project at B (instead of A). This is worth noting to highlight the unchanged Military history WikiProject rating.
 * Per WP Classical Greece and Rome Start C, B, GA (outlier) A examples it could be anything from Start to GA but not A, (arguably C)


 * Nom for A WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Velites seems to be based on it being at GA long, plus importance. How can it have passed to A, if these things for GA still aren't fixed?
 * A: "A fairly complete treatment of the subject. A non-expert in the subject would typically find nothing wanting." WP:ASSESS
 * A non-expert did find something wanting.
 * Which is what? Images? See below, that is a non-issue. 01:01, 25 January 2017 (UTC)


 * GA: "Useful to nearly all readers, with no obvious problems; approaching (but not equalling) the quality of a professional encyclopedia"
 * Nearly all readers will want to know what they look like/dress
 * As it would seem that looking at the article is above you, here it is Velite.png. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  01:01, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Spirit of GA "Useful to nearly all readers, with no obvious problems; approaching (but not equalling) the quality of a professional encyclopedia" Widefox ; talk 23:53, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I'll be honest here, the only real issues were with MOS, which you have now fixed. Apart from the Images (which has been rectified as best as it can), there are no real problems. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  00:16, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
 * talk page explains difficulty with old sources, but I point out "If the references to improve an article to Good article standards simply do not exist, then you should not overlook that part of the criteria." Widefox ; talk 00:41, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
 * The references here are not an issue. The only issue is if the new image doesn't cut it, which it fairly should. I will also quote the criteria directly: Illustrated, if possible, by images. Even if the new image does not meet the criteria, it falls under the "Not possible" which doesn't fail it. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  00:49, 25 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Care to talk at all before adding banners to the page? What source?  Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  01:32, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
 * User:Iazyges Care to let uninvolved editors edit and highlight copyright infringements without being reverted - see WP:OWN. Do not revert serious copyright issues again, it is disruptive. Also, this was meant to be an individual assessment, which clearly has immediate fail and I may close at any time. Widefox ; talk 01:39, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Widefox, individual reassessments do not have "immediate fail" as an option. The instructions at WP:GAR are quite specific, and include both of the following for individual reassessments: Notify major contributing editors, relevant WikiProjects for the article, and, if recently GA reviewed, the nominator and the reviewer, which I don't believe you have done. More to the specific point here, Wait for other editors to respond. Do everything you can to improve the article during this time. So far as I can tell, you didn't notify anyone nor any WikiProject, and you need to make these notifications and give the people and projects a chance to respond; standard on Wikipedia is to allow a full seven days for such a response after notification, and it's typical to allow more if improvements are being made. GARs can only result in an article being kept or delisted as a Good Article; the GAR process has no power to downgrade a specific project-given status like A-class, which was the result of a review last month. You'll need to get the Military WikiProject to agree to any downgrade there. BlueMoonset (talk) 08:11, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
 * User:BlueMoonset it was suggested to me to do an individual reassessment, I notified those that I saw, maybe I missed one out? So as you are factually incorrect to state I notified nobody - see, and at least one other account was abandoned, and several others already knew. I'll give you a chance to retract that falsehood before discussing with you. See WP:AGF, alternative facts and WP:LOCALCONSENSUS when it comes to MILHIST assessing for another project rating. (see my final comment below). MILHIST don't WP:OWN the article, anyone independent like me, but not me now may edit and point out copyvios, which must be removed. Deal with it.  Widefox ; talk 17:04, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Widefox, I apologize for my error in missing the editors you notified when I looked. I shouldn't have missed them. However, you didn't notify any of the WikiProjects that I can see, and still hadn't as of your above post. I do wonder, as you did, about the MilhistBot changing the GA assessment for the Classical Greece and Rome WikiProject to A; I see it was restored to GA after discussion on the article's talk page, based on the GA review this past summer, which is what this reassessment will affect. (If it is delisted at GA, I imagine that MILHIST will do their own downgrade; they've done it before.) However, if you are not going to pursue this reassessment yourself and want to leave it to the community, it will have to be reopened as a community reassessment if you wish a reassessment to happen. Please let me know what you wish to do. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:27, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
 * He has demanded I not speak to him anymore, but I believe he wishes it to continue, as he makes several references to copyvio needing to be fixed (but not actually mentioning any more, and appears to just believe it to be true). So I would recommend you change it to community. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  17:47, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Iazyges  Consermonor   Opus meum  01:41, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
 * BlueMoonset no problem. I've moved on. I was slow to get the message that valid feedback, however minor for a GAR, but from a GAR newbie isn't welcome here. Has anyone checked for other copyvios yet? I don't know. My suspicion was correct that there were issues, and it's improved now. How can that ever happen that a newly assessed A has copyvios? It wasn't clear to me why it was suggested to me to do an Individual assessment when it may have already been apparent that it's contested, so a community one seems more appropriate. Nobody doing any GAR should be put through 19 notifications in a few hours - despite me asking one editor to stop notifying me, I'm still getting them from that person today. I only randomly arrived and fixed things, what will driving outsiders away do for the quality? The feedback on the feedback feedback is..."all yours". Widefox ; talk 23:28, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

*User:Widefox I have requested that this be closed, per your lack of familiarity with GAR and GA criteria and instructions. Iazyges  Consermonor   Opus meum  02:26, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

New Section

 * User:Widefox Ok, hopefully to end the dispute before it may progress, what I was referring to was the pre-assessment step #3: "Make sure that the problems you see in the article are covered by the actual good article criteria. Many problems, including the presence of dead URLs, inconsistently formatted citations, and compliance with the Manual of Style are not covered by the GA criteria and therefore not grounds for delisting." And also that images are listed as "If possible", rather than mandatory. Are there any other issues you have with the article? While I would be happy to go over MOS with you, it is outside of GAR, and should be left to the talk page. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  03:55, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
 * User:Widefox Again, let us work on the article, and not argue. I have struck all of my comments that could be considered a personal attack. Can we agree to work on the article? Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  04:40, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
 * User:Widefox I have waited far longer than a few minutes, so I trust you aren't still editing. Do you have new suggestions or issues? Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  17:22, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
 * My assessment was struck through and edit warred, my copyvio notice was edit warred away before it was fixed. As there's little opportunity for a non-involved editor like me to get involved in this process, I want no part of it. WP:OWN doesn't help the article. Are there more copyright violations? The first prose I checked turned out to be a copyvio. That's not a minor (MOS type) issue when this claims to be A. That sums up the level of scrutiny that may still be needed. I leave it for you guys to take forward, thanks. Widefox ; talk 16:44, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
 * User:Widefox as its your individual assessment, you should either change it to community, or close it. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  16:58, 26 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Could you either close this, or reopen it as a community re-assessment? -- Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  02:53, 28 March 2017 (UTC)