Talk:Vellalar/Archive 4

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 January 2023
Simplified helpful important overview (Compiled from already existing and reliable sources) of the article to add to the "History" section but above the "In Sangam literature" on the main article.

Historians consider the Vellalars originated from the Velir clans who claim descent from the Yadu king or Yadu dynasty. Historically, the Vellalars were the class of landed aristocrats and held various hereditary occupations such as petty kings and nobles, provincial governors, army commanders, court officials, warriors,  landlords, and agriculturists. Vino678777 (talk) 03:56, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. Lizthegrey (talk) 03:30, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 September 2023
--Astroz anime (talk) 13:12, 5 September 2023 (UTC)--Astroz anime (talk) 13:12, 5 September 2023 (UTC)--Astroz anime (talk) 13:12, 5 September 2023 (UTC) Astroz anime (talk) 13:12, 5 September 2023 (UTC) Add Kodikaal Vellalar To The Subcastes of Vellalar
 * Please provide a reliable source RegentsPark (comment) 14:20, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Add Kodikaal Vellalar To Subcastes
Source:

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.56743/page/n423/mode/2up

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.47747/page/n329/mode/2up Astroz anime (talk) 07:54, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Add Kodikaal Vellalar to subcastes.

Source:

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.56743/page/n423/mode/2up

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.47747/page/n329/mode/2up Astroz anime (talk) 06:09, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Varna Classification
The Varna status of the Vellalars is a contested and complex topic, as the Vellalars are traditionally classified under the Vaishya varna, and additionally from British rule onwards are also classified as high ranking Shudras,       by various sources. The traditional records, views of historians and Government records have been elaborated below in chronological order.

Historical Vellala personalities documented as Vaishyas
J. V. Chelliah a popular Tamil scholar who translated the Ten Idylls into English states that Paṭṭiṉappālai (Commonly dated between 1st to 2nd Century CE) has mentions that Vellalars belonged to the Vysya caste, They followed the 4 Vedas, they were commonly involved in agriculture, taking care of cattle, trade and other business pursuits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sastri676 (talk • contribs) 09:40, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Appar, a Saiva Vellala saint who lived during the 6th-7th Century CE, was a Vaishya by birth. The Saiva saint from 8th century CE, Eyarkon Kalikamar, 29th among the 63 Saiva Nayanmars mentioned in Sekkizhar's Periya Puranam, dated 12th century CE, is described as a Vellala of the Vaishya caste.

The Vaishnavite Vellala Saint Nammazhwar, who lived ca. 798 CE, was classified as Vysya, among the Four great Vysya saints of Hinduism, by the All India Vaishya Samaj in 1988. This is corroborated by Dr.Panchapakesa Jayaraman, Vedic priest & scholar, ex-director of Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, in his book "A Brief History of Vaishnava Saint Poets: The Alwars" where he mentions that Nammalwar, a Vellala, belongs to the Vaishya caste. Nammazhwar's grandfather, Tiruvazhmarban Pillai, also a Vellala, is mentioned as a Vysya.

Rangappa Thiruvengadam Pillai, who recorded a Diary of events in the Tamil region from 1761-1768, belonged to the Vaishya caste.


 * , could you tell why the Varna section is required in this article? It is not clear what is the use of this section? I mean, how does it matter if the Vellalar are Vaishya or not? Are there are any restrictions due to this Varna? Should they behave in a certain way when they come across other castes or other Varna like Brahmins? I assume "Sastri" is Brahmin Varna, so does it mean Sastri people are higher Varna than Vellalar? Is this why you want to add this information to Vellalar page so that everyone can understand that "Sastri" junta are higher/superior to Vellalars? Speak frankly so everyone can understand why this section is required as I find a concerted effort by a group of editors who are striving repeatedly to tag different non-Brahmin castes as belonging to Shudra Varna/Vaishya Varna etc. Nittawinoda (talk) 13:13, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Upanayana ceremonies
The Karmandala Satakam by Ãrai Kiḻãr, dated 1292-1342 C.E, during the reign of Hoysala King Veera Ballala III, states in verse 52: "The Vellalas of Karmandalam belonged to the Mānava Gotra & practiced the rite of upanayana or wearing the sacred thread." As per the Apastambha Shrauta Sutra, The Mānava Gotra is a Rājarși-derived Dvija Gotra used by the 3-upper castes. The Vaidika Upanayana ceremony performed by the Vellalas, for wearing the Yajñopavita or the sacred thread, traditionally done for the 3 upper castes, namely Brahmin, Kshatriya and Vaishya respectively, is also well documented in the British era and modern records. In his letters from 1947, Ananda Kentish Coomaraswamy, a Sri Lankan Vellalar, records his Vellala ancestry from Thanjavur, and states that the Vellalars are traditionally given the Vaidika Upanayana ceremony and wear the sacred thread or Yajñopavita. He also mentions his Upanayana ceremony conducted by a Brahmin from Punjab and his son Rama's Upanayana ceremony in Bengal. Edgar Thurston quotes H.A Stuart's commentary on the Vellalas, where he mentions the Vaishya subdivisions of the Vellalas as shepherds, cultivators and merchants and a few who therefore constantly wear the sacred thread, with most putting it on only during marriages or funerals as a mark of the sacred nature of the ceremony."

Traditional records
The various Puranas mentioning the Vaishya status accorded to the Vellalars during the reign of the Chola emperors, is elaborated in the Abhidana Chintamani.

According to Anthropologist Irawati Karve, there is a tradition among the Vellalans that there were 3 divisions of the Vaishyas : (1) Bhu-Vaishyas or farmers ,(2) Go-Vaishyas or husbandmen & (3) Dhana-Vaishyas or merchants, with the last division giving rise to the Chettis who originally belonged to the Vellala tribe.

Historian Usha R. Vijailakshmi observes that Verse 34 of the Karmandala Satakam, composed ca.1292 CE, connects the origin of the Gangas to the origin of the Karakatha Vellalas of Southern Karnataka, as follows: "Gangeya Murthaka pala was born to Lord Shiva and he had two wives; the first wife had 54 sons & the second wife had 52 sons. Out of these Bhupalar, (one who practiced Agriculture) gave birth to 35 Vellala leaders, Dhanapalar, who was into trade, gave birth to 35 Vellala leaders Gopalar, (one who herded cattle) and one Agamurthi gave birth to 1 Vellala leader".

The terms Bhupālar, Dhanapālar, & Gopālar refer to the 3 subdivisions of Vaishyas: Bhu-vaishya, Dhana-vaishya & Go-vaishya respectively. Their professions correspond to the duties laid out for Vaishyas in the Manusmriti, which states, "trade, animal husbandry, and agriculture has been prescribed as the livelihood for the Vaishya. Their Law, however, is giving gifts, studying the Vedas, and offering sacrifices." . This is corroborated by Muttusvami Srinivasa Iyengar, who classifies the Vellalas as Vaishyas with Bhu-Vaishya and Kula Vanikar or Vellan Chetti sub-divisions, and cites the duties of the Bhu-Vaishya sect of Vellalars as mentioned in a verse of the 9th century CE text, the Purapporul Venba Maalai: "

(1) tilling,

(2) cow-breeding,

(3) trade,

(4) studying the Vedas,

(5) worship of sacrificial' fire, and

(6) giving aims.

Usha R. Vijailakshmi notes that the same legend from the Karmandala Satakam is dealt with in certain detail by Edgar Thurston in his seminal work - Castes and Tribes of Southern India, in which he discusses the Vellala community of Tamil Nadu. The 1961 Census quotes Edgar Thurston who classifies the Vellalas as Vaisyas,  and mentions their traditional subdivision into Bhūmi Pālakulu or Bhu-Vaishyas, Vellal Shetti or Dhana-Vaishyas, and Govu-Shetlu or Go-Vaishyas as mentioned in the Baramahal records  which state that in Murdaka Palakulu, the son of Bhumi Devi born on the banks of the Ganges, after winning a battle with Vishwakarma, attained the titles

1) Bhūmi Pālakudu or saviour of the earth,

2) Ganga kulam or descendant of the river Ganga, and

3)Murdaka Pālakudu or protector of the plough, alluding to his being born with a ploughshare in his hand,

and it was ordained that a person of the caste should put the crown on the king's head at the coronation. They next invested him with the yegnōpavitam or string, and, in order that he might propagate his caste, they gave him in marriage the daughters of the gods Indra and Kubēra. Murdaka Pālakulu had fifty-four sons by the daughter of the god Indra, and fifty-two by the daughter of the god Kubēra, whom he married to the one hundred and six daughters of Nala Kubarudu, the son of Kubēra, and it was ordained that; Edgar Thurston also cites H.A. Stuart's commentary which corroborates the Baramahal records, where he mentions the Vellalas sub-divisions of Vaishyas as Bhu-Vaishyas, Go-Vaishyas and Dhana-Vaishyas or shepherds, cultivators and merchants.
 * thirty-five of them should be called Bhūmi Pālakulu, and should till the ground;
 * thirty-five of them named Vellal Shetti, and their occupation be traffic; and
 * thirty-five of them named Gōvu Shetlu, and their employment breeding and feeding of cattle.

Busnagi Rajannan states that the Kongu Vellalars are also referred to as Bhu-Vaishyas, Bhu-Pālan or Gangavamsam. The "Yalpana Vaipava Malai" or "The History of the Kingdom of Jaffna", composed by Mayil Vakanan in 1739, states that the Vellalars are synonymous with Vaishyas.

Government records (1834-1981)
Simon Casie Chitty notes in the British Government Ceylon District Gazetteer of 1834 that the Sri Lankan Vellalars also follow this 3 fold classification of Vaishyas; The Chettiar Vellalar are Dhana-Vaishyas, the Karkathar Vellalar, Tuluva Vellalar and Chozhia Vellalar are Bhu-Vaishyas, and the Idayers are Go-Vaishyas. Alongside classifying the Vellalas as Vaishyas, Chetty also documents that the Jaffna Vellalas belong to the Bhu-Vaishya caste caste, and the Colombo Chetties belong to the Dhana-Vaishya caste.

The 1871 and 1901 British Government Censuses which put the Vellalas in the Sudra category was met with protests by the Vellala community who petitioned against the move by citing the Manusmriti, as they are traditionally classified as Vaishyas , with the traditional records dating as far back as 1292. The evidences of the Dvija Gotras being held by the Vellalas, along with the long documented tradition of them wearing the sacred thread    or Yajñopavita & the Vaidika Upanayana ceremonies having been performed by the Vellalar community  , which are traditionally restricted to the 3 upper varnas, namely Brahmin, Kshatriya and Vaishya respectively , reaffirms their traditional Dvija Vaishya status       & contradicts these additional Shudra classifications of the Vellalars from the colonial period onwards , as Shudras do not have Dvija Gotras & are not given the Vaidika upanayana ceremonies.

Post the 1871 and 1901 Census, The Travancore Government Gazette of 1911 documents the Nanjinad Vellalas as Bhu-Vaishyas. The 1961 Census of India, quoting Edgar Thurson, classifies the Vellalas as Vaishyas. The 1981 Census of India mentions the Chettiar Vellalar, Mudaliar, & Kongu Vellalars or Gounders alongside the other Vysya communities of Karnataka for their involvement in substantial businesses.

Modern historians like K.A.Nilakanta Sastri, R.S.Sharma and S.Thiruvenkatachari have stated that the Vellalars cannot be equated with Shudras. A.R. Desai notes in that the Vellalas follow a more ritualistic, " Sanskritic ” style of life and proclaim themselves as Vaishyas.

caste pov in this article
the vellalars have no connection to velir and also vellalars are not connected to Ay velirs. there is no source which states that ayvelirs are vellalars. discuss

Social Scientist - Google Books Publisher:Indian School of Social Sciences https://www.google.com/books/edition/Social_Scientist/_Hw5AAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=vellalars+agricultural+shudra&dq=vellalars+agricultural+shudra&printsec=frontcover

Publisher:University of California, Berkeley https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Power_of_Murugan/6utIAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=vellalars+agricultural+shudra&dq=vellalars+agricultural+shudra&printsec=frontcover The Power of Murugan A Study of the Tamil Celebration of Thaipusam in Penang, Malaysia 160.69.1.132 (talk) 23:44, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Discussion on Varna section. Why is it required?
Opening this section to discuss why the Varna section is not required in this article. Even though I have deleted this section for now, it is bound to be re-added to the article by some editor citing some reason or the other in the near future. Request editors to answer some of the queries listed below so wiki readership can better understand why some editors think varna section is required in this article.


 * It is not clear what is the purpose of this section? I mean, how does it matter if the Vellalar are Vaishya or not? Are there are any restrictions due to this Varna? Should they behave in a certain way when they come across other castes or other Varna like Brahmins? Vaishya is below Brahmin varna, is this why you want to add this information to the Vellalar page so that everyone can understand that "Brahmin" junta are higher/superior to Vellalars?


 * Is varna decided by birth? Is it not based upon one's occupation? In this modern age, all Vellalar are no longer farmers. They may be pursuing other occupations. In this case are they still considered to belong to the Vaishya Varna? Suppose, one Vellalar is in the army, is this person Kshatriya or still Vaishya? Varna is based upon the occupation as the Manusmrti lists farming, engaging in business as a Vaishya activity. This is why some Vellalar may have been classified as Vaishya. If not Vellalar cannot be classified as Vaishya as Vellalar is not a synonym for farmer or cattle rearer. On the same note, Iyer businessmen are not Brahmins, they are Vaishya as they are engaged in business.


 * As the article describes some Vellalar were never Hindus from the very beginning and other Vellalars have rejected Hinduism and are following other religions? So is it right to add the Varna section in the article? Isn't the Varna system a Hindu classification? The Varna system has its origins in the Smrti texts like Manusmrti and may be some other Vedic texts. The followers of these texts are called Smarthas for instance like Iyer group. They could choose to follow this system if they wanted to. Why should it apply to other people who choose to follow some Hindu folk religion/village deity and have nothing to do with Vedic Hinduism?

For the reasons/queries cited above, I think Varna section is not needed in this article. If some editors think otherwise then please explain the reasons and answer the above queries so everyone can undertand why Varna section is required in this article. Nittawinoda (talk) 15:15, 30 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Agreed.Vellalars Cannot be called as vaishyas because they were no doing business at all. They are agrarian cum military castes. Astroz anime (talk) 14:37, 29 November 2023 (UTC)