Talk:Venom (band)/Archive 1

RV. war
I'm getting tired of this. In a 'battle' a while ago speed/black had been declared wehat would stay, and now one person disagrees and finds it necessary to change? I have kept thrash for the time being, but MANY thrash metal fans (including myself) would never call this thrash. If you insist on keeping it, do not revert other edits. Calling 'speed metal' vandalistic is plain stupid. Please, have a VALID point for its removal if you wish to do so. While you're at it, please check the METAL ARCHIVES' page for Venom if you want my 'source' for Speed Metal. Do not continue a pointless revert war. --Ryouga 23:36, 13 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Its been removed as part of the WP:HMM's clean up strategy, and per the Speed Metal article. We also dont use MA as a source here, due to constant, and blatant, misinformation in their own articles. Ley Shade 01:37, 14 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Point accepted - Venom still remains on the speed metal band list, because they still fall in that category. This shouldn't be a problem though. --Ryouga 23:40, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Speed metal re-add: As per incorrect Speed Metal article, point disproven.

Unappropriate comment
Pardon by use exactly this word, but who gives a damn about what a unknown critic named Ed Rivadavia (not cited by Wikipedia pages) says on the Venom music? I'm not a fan of this band, but I think the comment is unrelevant and add no valious information on this band article. So about consider deleting it for good? I support the idea.

Comment
"They weren't a "serious" band"?...?!?!?

-- By that I think its meant that they didnt take the whole satan Schtick seriously. It was a stage act, as compared to the laterday Norwegians who appear to believe there own propaganda.

okay, i might want to place more of an emphasis on how they're actually more thrash/proto-black metal than REALLY black metal. Also, I just need to continue with the biography and stuff, and work on a member list. --Eel 06:22, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't think they fake what they fell, I think your vision on the band is wrong. There are numerous way a person express beliefs in satanism and so on, none of them must be despised. (unindentified user) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.84.193.2 (talk) 05:01, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

influences
okay, venom influenced a LOT of bands, so it might be a bit of a crazy idea to list them all on here. --Eel 03:56, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

POV for "Mantas"
Isn't this page very biased? Take a look at whenever Mantas is mentioned


 * haha, wow, yeah, it is, especially since (NO OFFENSE TO ANYONE, i'm in love with venom), mantas wasn't really the greatest guitarist around. i'll fix it some time when i'm not asleep. --Eel 03:37, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Speed
Venom IS SPEED/BLACK. please stop changing it. check the metal-archives for more info.

This has generally been agreed on. It was just 'black metal' once, which is definitely wrong. Obviously someone disgrees - Venom had raw producution and harsh vocals yes, but instrumentalls mantas played a style similar to Priest's speed metal sound. that stuff about crust punk / nwobhm can stay in the albums since many do believe that - if you wish to add thrash there that's fine since that genre is probably already on most of those album pages. --Ryouga 22:10, 10 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Not to raise this revising battle once more, but couldn't it just be Blackened Speed (or Thrash) and NWOBHM? Because we have Black Metal, Speed Metal, Blackened Thrash, and NWOBHM.  It would be simpler to just put that...unless we're being specific here then go right ahead. Good work on the article also. Swiftdullah 18:04, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Henry Rollins is stupid
Yeah well look where you are now henry rollins, youre just talking on records and you think youre really intelligent. what a fucking loser.

that part should be removed, because anyone intelligent recognizes venom as important. the henry rollins thing is jut an anecdote really


 * well, don't get me wrong, venom was very important, and i like them as much as the next guy, but i think it's probably good to have something that mentions that they really weren't all too great at their instruments. i mean, they even admitted it in interviews. --Eel 19:32, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Black flag over Venom anyday
 * ^ Not really, the only song Black Flag had that was worth mentioning was TV Party. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.51.41.72 (talk) 19:47, 28 December 2006 (UTC).

MMV
Does anybody want to put the MMV Boxset with complete track listings up?!

Henry Rollins always seems to have opinions about other bands, usually negative. The musicianship of Black Flag was by no means greater than that of Venom. Rollins used to make fun of rap bands then did a recording with Chuck D. Black Flag was influential, but the Rollins Band was not. In fact they weren't very good. People used to say that Motorhead was "awful". Now Motorhead are considered to be highly influential. A whole generation of thrash bands were influenced by Black Sabbath, Motorhead and Venom. Venom were influential, and an important band in metal history.

We need to remove some genres.
Let's put them as Blackened Thrash Metal, Speed Metal, and NWOBHM. It describes their sound perfectly, and they're not "true" black metal anyway, because even though they innovated in creating the genre, they still don't fit the bill.

For fair comparison, Metal Archives lists them as NWOBHM, Black/Thrash Metal. Black/Thrash is usually used to indicate Blackened Thrash.

I think it's fair to label them black metal. They coined the term and labeled themselves as black metal before most of the modern ones came about (I mean, it'd be like making a new political ideology called "fascism" which deviates from Mussolini's ideas and disregards them as facsism). Furthermore, Euronymous of Mayhem (who arguably kickstarted modern black metal) acknowledged Venom as black metal too. - Dark Prime

Creation Destruction 06:02, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the top comment. However, Venom call themselves black metal too...of course, this doesn't make them black metal, I think it should just be NWOBHM, Speed Metal, Thrash as their styles with mention to them contributing to the roots of black metal...which the article does. Anyway, the contributing to Death Metal and Thrash is odd too. Couldn't that just be mentioned in the article? Swiftdullah 17:31, 25 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Venom may not be what's recognised as conventional black metal, but partially because of the reasons I listed earlier, they are black metal. - Dark Prime

Their genre is not Black Metal.Remove it.The only reason people label them as black metal is because of their album "Black Metal" and because they gave the name for the genre. Yeah they influenced many black metal bands but listen to some bands from the first wave such as Bathory and you'll find many differences. Also - they sound just like a thrash band or a speed band.I agree with Swiftdullah - "it should just be NWOBHM, Speed Metal, Thrash as their styles with mention to them contributing to the roots of black metal...which the article does" If someone want to keep the black metal tag - please add a source.Thank you. Xr 1 08:47, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

"The only reason people label them as black metal is because of their album "Black Metal" and because they gave the name for the genre." Excuse me, but do you hear yourself here? ''"Only reason!?!?!?!?" What more reason do you need? I mean, do you consider that some kind of minor reason? Besides that, anybody that wants to just label them Thrash or Speed metal obviously hasn't listened to songs like "Warhead", "Buried Alive", "1,000 Days in Sodom" or "Leave Me in Hell." Those songs are slow and heavy. I'll be looking for a source. Maybe we could start with the lyrics for "Black Metal?" Jackmantas (talk) 11:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes you're right! Many many people think Venom plays black metal. They aren't like Mayhem or Darkthrone. They played heavy metal/speed metal until "Resurrection", and only "Metal Black" contains thrash metal parts like Slayer or Kreator. Blackened thrash metal is inappropriate for them, they don't use black metal screaming vocals like Necrodeath for example --Born Again 83 09:57, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry but Venom invented Black Metal. Anybody who doesn't believe that wasn't there when it happened. Jackmantas (talk) 01:08, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I wasn't there when it happened, but I still agree that they are and were black metal (after all I'm the one who added it back a few times and even added the source it has now).  Blizzard Beast  ''$ODIN' 17:25, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I was there when it happened and black metal back then was not a seperate genre in its own right but was a reference to satanism. The opposite back then was white metal for christian / biblical bands. The fact is simple. If black metal wasn't a reference to satanic metal then where the hell did "white metal" evolve??? Like White Metal, Black Metal covered the whole heavy metal spectrum of genres. The only tendency was white metal tended to have a clean sound and black metal had an ery sound. Venom marketed "Black Metal" meaning satanic metal and the record company Metal Blade marketed the term White Metal with the group Trouble. Not all White Metal groups were Christian as Trouble were definetely not. They just thought satanic lyrics were immature. Not only do I remember as I was actively involved in the metal scene back then but if a responsible and mature research be done correctly then the facts from the time will support this. Try getting magazine articles from the metal magazines from the time as they will have a good representation of the view at the time. Saying Venom and groups like Mayhem or Immortal are of the same sound is totally rediculous. Its like saying Bolt-thrower and Sacred Riech are of the same genre. Metalosaurus (talk) 18:28, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Incomplete disography?
I was looking at the discography, and it looked a little incomplete. I remembered an EP which had a song titled "Manitou", but couldn't find reference to it here. I found a "better" discography here, but I am not sure this stuff should be merged into this article? Yngvarr 01:25, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Ed Rivadavi
I think this page relies a little too heavily on quotes from Allmusic's Ed Rivadavi.C1k3 00:51, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, I'll work on that.Jackmantas (talk) 01:08, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Venom Logo.png
Image:Venom Logo.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.


 * BetacommandBot 05:17, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I have added the following rationale to the image:

Fair Use Rationale
This logo is fair use in the article Venom (band) for the following reasons: Hope this helps. Arundhati lejeune 12:13, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) This is a low resolution image.
 * 2) The image is used in an article about the band and is integral to the article.
 * 3) The use of the image is unlikely to affect the future marketing of the image by the copyright holder.
 * 4) A free use image is not available.

Black metal
Where is written here that Venom are black metal? --Born Again 83 (talk) 11:04, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Why have you deleted that source of www.metalcrypt,com without a reason? I can't stand this action and it's not the first time! That reference is explicit, Venom aren't black metal, they were only pioneers. Mayhem started the genre. I need an answer if you can, please! --Born Again 83 (talk) 19:44, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Mayhem did not start the genre, listen to old Bathory (e.g.The Return). Kameejl (Talk) 08:58, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * And Mayhem themselves acknowledged Venom as black metal. You should read Euronymous' interviews. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.14.74.64 (talk) 17:41, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Why do people always ALWAYS take the words of the musicians themselves as some kind of fact? Musicians are mere men just like the rest of us. If The Sex Pistols were to suddenly start saying that Dead Kennedys were an IDM group, this would not make it so. This approach to an argument is extremely weak. If Venom is black metal, then so is Motorhead and early Blind Guardian. Anyway, the while the first band to actually play black metal is debated (some say Bathory, some say Mayhem, and there are probably a few more that don't immediately come to mind), I think we've come to an agreement that Venom isn't black metal. They contributed the name of the genre and some less musical aspects like lyrical themes and poor production, but I think we can safely say that there's much more to black metal music than that. We should take it off the genre list. 24.19.227.39 (talk) 08:30, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Regardless of whether this band can be said to be "black metal", I would ask the editors not to remove reference footnotes without previewing their changes. The folks fighting about this issue have apparently ignored the fact that deleting and improperly restoring the reference element named "metal_ahj" containing the cite video for Metal: A Headbanger's Journey had caused a big, bold, red error message to appear in the References section. It took me a while to find the original use of this reference to understand what it was supposed to look like before hasty editors starting hacking at it. If you're going to mess with Footnotes, even if only to delete them, you need to learn how they work and how not to create problems. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 23:08, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Since Venom also referred to themselves as black metal while also having coined it, I feel it's absurd to go along and say they wern't black metal. 90.196.92.177 (talk) 18:50, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

NWOBHM
That's not a genre. Erase it, I can't. -.-

142.162.193.115 (talk) 23:58, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

NWOBHM is a genre. Jackmantas (talk) 01:04, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

NWOBHM is not a genre it is a wave. The genre is heavy metal Metalosaurus (talk) 18:31, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Satan, hell, etc. infl.
Should'nt we also mention that Venom was one of the first bands to talk about Satan and hell in such a way in their lyrics. I mean, we're talking about Venom. Before them no one talked so predominantly about such evil (or Satanic) things to an even close degree as Venom. Some might think it doesn't matter but I beg to differ. I don't really care what it was that they were talking about in their lyrics, I only mention it because of all the bands that took influence from this. Before Venom = no Satanic or "evil" lyrics (or even music) to speak of really. After Venom = pretty much every single metal band afterward (yes, I know it's an exaggeration, but I'm kaing a point) started doing lyrics predominanlty about evil or "Satanic" things, taking a leaf right out of Venom's book (or one could even say copying them).  Blizzard Beast  ''$ODIN' 22:39, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Excellent point and I absolutely agree with you. They were definitely the first band to talk about Satanic things to the level that they took it. I always thought that Venom was kind of a reaction to the Christian fanatics who claimed that there were all these Satanic bands, when up to the time of Venom, they were actually just a myth created by the Christian right. It was almost as if Venom said: ''Wow, thanks for the great idea for a band." I actually heard about Venom from watching some Christian television program that was trying to slam them and warn everyone of the terrible, evil, Satanic, heavy metal. They flashed a few pics and played excerpts from the songs: "Black Metal" and "Leave Me in Hell" while flashing the lyrics across the screen and I said to myself: "These guys are awesome, I gotta get this album." and I ran out and bought it the next day. The Christian Right just doesn't realize how they promote the very stuff that they are trying to get rid of. So I guess we need to created a section about how they paved the way for so many Satanic bands after them? Sounds good to me. I'll be thinking about a title for the section. I'll also look for some sources.Jackmantas (talk) 01:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Lmao, that's true. That's hilarious that that's how you found out about them.  Ok, sounds great.  I'm sure Ian Christe's book Sound of the Beast (that's used widely on wikipedia for all things metal) has info about it.  Blizzard Beast  ''$ODIN' 19:06, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

What the bloody fuck is.....
.....this about venom being black metal?

THEY INFLUENCED BLACK METAL! NEVER EVER HAD ONE FUCKING SONG CLOSE TO BLACK METAL!!!

They are associated with being black metal and being the start of black metal. Black metal has evolved since venom. Undead Warrior (talk) 03:46, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Neither of the above two comments has any relevance to the discussion. There are plenty of reliable sources to cite that Venom are indeed black metal. It gets frustrating that Wiki-editors continue to believe that their personal opinions are of any importance. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 22:57, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Both of you need to read WP:CIVIL. Also, how does venom being associated with black metal not have any relevance? They started black metal. That is a fact. Name one band before venom who played black metal. Undead Warrior (talk) 08:54, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I totally agree with the point above; Venom influence black metal. They never did have any song remotely close to the modern "genre" called Black Metal. It was and still is a fact that Venom were part of the NWOBHM.

People saying Venom started black metal are wrong as black metal back then was the opposite to white metal. It basically meant satanic lyrics. It was nothing to do with genres.

Quote: Wikipedia "White Metal"

"The Chicago doom metal group Trouble was known to be the first band that was publicly marketed as "white metal" since their early albums Psalm 9 and The Skull feature Biblical references, at the time when Christian beliefs were almost unheard of in the metal world.[20] The term was born outside the Christian circles; it was the secular label Metal Blade Records that came up with and arose the term "white metal" in contrast to the rising black metal movement which was led by the bands such as Venom and Sodom.[9] However, while the vocalist Eric Wagner wrote all of the Trouble's lyrics, the guitarist Bruce Franklin has said about the Christian themes: "I guess it came from Eric's early interest in Biblical subjects, not from his interest in being a Christian, but from searching for something that was interesting."[21] Later, HM magazine wrote about the band: "While certainly not what one would call a Christian band, many Christian headbangers have enjoyed Troubles's upfront lyrics about the Lord on its first two albums (when they were commonly called the "white metal" band)."[22] Eric Wagner himself has commented on marketing the band as white metal:"

Quote: "Eric Wagner himself has commented on marketing the band as white metal:

It was Metal Blade. Back then they called all of it ´Black Metal´, y´know, Slayer, Danzig, etc., all those bands, they are ´Black Metal´, so I didn't grow up believing in all that crap and I think that people didn't believe in it either. It was a question about marketing your band in some way, so I had to do it. So I did this. Metal Blade called us as a “White Metal band” and I just wished they didn't.[3]"

Quoting another wikiproject or wikipedia page will not support your point to the fullest ability. Venom was considered the opposite of the bands of the time. Saying bands like Danzig and Slayer are black metal is a totally unsupported claim too. For one, Slayer is pure thrash. The "White metal" bands of the era were nothing like Venom, which is why black metal was formed. Venom were the original black metal artists. Just because the genre has changed does not prove any other point. Undead Warrior (talk) 22:56, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I think people nowadays just can easily say that Venom isnt black metal, just because its not as extreme as todays modern black metal. it was considered black metal back then, and it is now. another thing that people get confused with is only around half of their albums are black metal. id say they are black metal, at war with satan, possessed, calm before the storm, metal black, and the new album, hell. If you even look at this interview with dani filth, shagrath and nergal for Revolver magazine, they all say how many people think the old black metal bands like venom, bathory, hellhammer, and mercyful fate arent black metal any more only for the reason that they arent as extreme as the other bands today. Someone edited out black metal in the genre box. instead of just getting rid of it because its your opinion, can there please instead be something about it on the discussion page? Okram 09 (talk) 04:15, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Venom not only sound "not as extreme as the newer bands" but they also sound different musically and have a different vocal style. Venom's influence musically can be heard in the newer groups but their sound are still different. Its the same way Motorhead can be heard in Metallica but this doesn't make Motorhead thrash metal. Like Venom, Motorhead evolved out of the NWOBHM. NWOBHM & Thrash metal evolved from different eras with the second taken influence from the earlier and adding it to various other influences to produce its unique sound and guitar style.

Quoting another wikipedia source is not the case. The other Wiipedia source is quoting Erik Wagner who is the singer from the group 'Trouble'. Considerring Wikipedia is supposed to be an on-line encyclopedia presenting accurate inflormation and not a site where people vote or decide the facts themselves the facts should to be correct with accurate references to support it. If Black metal wasn't a term used to describe satanic influenced metal (As I can myself remember it as) then what is "White Metal"? Erik Wagner describes it exactly as I remember it myself. This is not just an personal oppinion as my memory is not confused but a common fact from the time. There must be ample sources presenting this fact from around the time, i.e. the many articles from metal magazines such as Raw, Metal Hammer etc (the internet was not around then so everyone read the magazines). The problem is finding them or people having old copies that they can provide as evidence. For this article to be accurate then an attempt to find evidence from the time should be made. Metalosaurus (talk) 18:32, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Venom thrash??
Since when is Venom thrash metal? Slayer is thrash. Venom is black metal. The citation for the thrash part is questionable. I think there is a bit of a controversy over the thrash part, and, until it can be verified one way or another, I don't think thrash should be in the genre section. Also, the part about Venom being speed metal is based off of a citation for the metal archives. The genre section needs work. Undead Warrior (talk) 00:51, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Here is what I mean. The press did not label the band as thrash, but rather said they influenced thrash. Influencing something does not mean the same as being something. They were/are a black metal band/NWOBHM band. Not thrash. Undead Warrior (talk) 00:58, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree, but in my opinion they should be both labelled as thrash AND black metal, and in some cases, speed metal. Because the thing is that the first for albums from welcome to hell to possessed were black metal, part of the first wave. then afterwards they just played thrash from calm before the storm until the original line-up returned, releasing the venom '96 EP. and now they are still playing black metal. The reason that the thrash part is there is pretty much because every first wave black metal band is labelled as 'blackened thrash metal' because basically it was a merge from thrash to black metal. The speed metal part i think is also put there because people say that they were part of the NWOBHM movement, which is debatable. and speed metal was part of the whole NWOBHM thing. Okram 09 (talk) 06:24, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The only thing in support of speed metal was the quote from metal archives. That is a user based review website and should not count towards a genre of a widely known and established band. Undead Warrior (talk) 13:16, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Venom started off as Heavy Metal (evolving as part of the NWOBHM) and were probably the most extreme group that were part of it. Their guitar sound was more typically Heavy Metal just poorly played, poor prudcution but played extremely aggressive. At the time they basically were as aggressive as Metallica who were influenced by them (alont with other NWOBHM groups such as Motorhead, Iron Maiden and Diamond Head) but did not have that unique guitar sound of Metallica that was picked up and copied by all the other thrash groups that soon followed. At the time Thrash Metal was as much an explosive scene coming from the bay area as it was a genre (also from LA and NY where Metallica also lived for a while and did the circuit in as they were approaching their first record deal). Venom on their later work are definetely thrash metal. Their vocal style stayed the same but they adopted that certain guitar sound. I'd even go as far as to say some of their later songs sound very similar to early Slayer. Metalosaurus (talk) 17:54, 12 November 2008 (UTC)