Talk:Venus (Marvel Comics)

This wiki is wrong
You need to put the information back to how it was. You are promoting incorrect information. You can't argue with the official marvel website.

Again, This is the ONLY page that is displaying the wrong information. The official marvel website and the marvel wikia and all other sources have displayed it correctly.

Swapped and Confirmed
There is far too much evidence supporting that Aphrodite debuted in the 40s, not the siren. Including the fact that Aphrodite had the cestus all along, which she used in the 40s. Plus the confirmation from the official marvel website, which can't be argued against. There are also penned letters in the comics confirming that she is the goddess and as you can see below under 'Aphrodite', a string more of other evidence.

This is the ONLY wiki that has the two wrong. The official marvel website and the marvel wikia all have Aphrodite debuting in the 40s. So please keep it this way now because we need to promote facts, not suspicions.

The page has also been cleaned up with more sections for history to help find appropriate details and the intro paragraph has been cleaned up into neater sentences because it was just swamped together into one big paragraph with bits of information here and there, this makes reading easier.

Venus & Agents of Atlas #5
...well, that's shaken things up a bit. It might be worth waiting 'til #6 is out, but there are a number of major retcons in #5. --Mrph 23:23, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

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Aphrodite
Do we know for certain that the goddess' first appearance was in 2009, and that all previous appearances were of the naiad? See my rationale at the comics project talk page. BOZ (talk) 23:58, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

For reference here is that post from comics project talk page:

For example, looking over the appearances on this page, I'd say that the naiad is Venus #1-19 and Marvel Mystery Comics #91 (from the 40s), and Avengers #283-284 & Thor Annual #8 were definitely the goddess. Marvel: The Lost Generation #5 was a followup on the 40s character, so clearly the naiad there as well. Most of the rest of that depends upon interpretation, and really requires some clarification from the writers as to which exploits belonged to which. BOZ (talk) 05:19, 25 January 2010 (UTC)


 * What you say here is an easy and logical assumption to make, however there has been no confirmation of this in the comic book and therefore could be considered WP:OR. I'd be okay with it if a concensus of the editors agree and then Vensus's fictional history can be sorted between the two characters. -TriiipleThreat (talk) 12:53, 26 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I'd have no idea how to separate them without some input from the writers - which I'm hoping happens at some point in Agents of Atlas and/or The Incredible Hercules; if not there, then at least an OHOTMU type handbook. I mean, there are scenes in which Venus appears in Olympus with the other gods, and I can't see them letting a siren just hang out with them for no apparent reason, while the real Venus is who knows where. I'm uncomfortable declaring most of the rest of her appearances one way or the other. I'm sure the goddess appeared long before 2009, but I can't prove it yet. BOZ (talk) 13:07, 26 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree, it makes sense but I hesitate to do it without an official source. -TriiipleThreat (talk) 13:09, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

The true Goddess is the one that debuts in the 40s in the comic Venus, using her roman name. The siren is the one that debuts in Agents of Atlas. It hasn't be 100% confirmed, however there are MAJOR pointers such as the Cestus which is the biggest giveaway following the retcon. During their battle in 2011, the true Goddess Aphrodite GIVES the cestus to the siren, handing over her mantle, meaning it was in the possession of the real Goddess all this time. And in the 40s Venus can be seen with the Cestus also, throughout the publication. So it can very safely be assumed that it was in fact Aphrodite that debuted in the 40s, the real Goddess.

Another big pointer is the established powers. In the 40s Venus displays alot of powers that she actually doesnt have, however the Goddess does, such as teleporting. These are then established to help illustrate the difference between the two in 2009 when Venus is pretty much helpless against the real Goddess when she confronts her for the first time in her temple.

I know again that it isn't 100% confirmed. However those pointers, especially the fact that the cestus was always in Aphrodites possession, is pretty much a confirmed retcon that it was actually Aphrodite. The Marvel Wikia has also taken note of this and changed the histories around so that it was Aphrodite that debuted in the 40s following this revelation too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.248.81 (talk) 11:22, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

This is also further supported by the fact that the character in the 1940s self titled issue, Venus, had a flashback to her ancient days in ancient Greece. In the flashback she cursed the ancient Greek man, Narcissus for rejecting her, turning him into a flower. Again it isn't 100% confirmed, however given the fact they did retcon Venus at all.... and the fact that the Cestus was always in Aphrodites rightful possession up until 2011... and the fact the character had a flashback in the 40s to her ancient Greek days, cursing a man... I'd say that was very firm, unquestionable evidence that the character in question was always Aphrodite, not Venus. And also, Venus cannot curse people. The list goes on. Again, the Marvel Wikia has also taken note of this and changed the pairs histories around to suit the more plausible reasoning behind this, with Aphrodite debuting in the 40s. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.248.81 (talk) 11:48, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

CONFIRMATION!!!

Aphrodite appears in Marvel: The Lost Generation #5. In the letter page in that issue John Byrne identifies her as the Greek Goddess (as the Siren character had not yet been introduced in comics until much later).

so will you now please change the history around to coincide with all other source materials.

THE OFFICIAL MARVEL WEBSITE ALSO HAS APHRODITE AS BEING THE ONE THAT DEBUTED IN 1941. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.195.240.173 (talk) 12:13, November 30, 2015


 * This still needs further looking into. The website states that the siren debuted in Venus #1 (1948) and that the goddess debuted in Venus #1 (1941). It should be noted that Venus #1 was in fact released in 1948, not 1941. This also doesn't address the retroactive continuity of the character.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 18:59, 30 November 2015 (UTC)


 * The comicbook database also says Venus was retconned and replaced by Aphrodite in 2009.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 19:13, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

The comicbook database is not an official MARVEL source of information. It is subjective to opinions.

Anyway. Solid Proof for you. In the pages of Venus series, she has a flashback to the battle of troy and cursing Narcisusses. It is stated in the retcon that Aphrodite was present during those times because that is when she stated she last felt love. There's your solid proof in the PAGES of the comics themselves. It is also confirmed in the pages of Marvel: The Lost Generation #5, in the letter page in that issue when John Byrne confirms it is infact Aphrodite. TWO confirmations in the comics themselves.

It may have very well been that before Agents of Atlas, that Venus was supposed to be the goddess because that's how she was written up until that point, displaying powers and abilities that the retcon stated only the Goddess has. (Even more confirmation from the comics)

The confusion stems from the fact that in the retcon Venus origin shows that she took up a costumed identity in the 40s, which ironically is when the Venus issue was published. But even more confirmation from the comics again, the Cestus was used in those comics, which was always in Aphrodites possession because she uses it in the retcon. And there are powers and abilities that only Aphrodite would have. The retcon also confirms the limited powers that Venus has. Which makes it impossible to have been her.

There's all the solid proof you need. Retcons are shit and they mess continuity. Scarlet Witch is a perfect example. But we need to respect that a bad writer made it happen and that's how it is. If it were going to be addressed, then it would have been by now, but it hasn't. But there ARE confirmations in the actual comics that I've just listed for you. It is our job to use our heads and there are MORE facts supporting Aphrodite than Venus.


 * As I pointed out above, the Marvel.com profiles (which are wikis themselves) are both contradictory and inaccurate. Marvel: The Lost Generation was written in 2000, so it cannot possibly address the 2009 retcon. I agree retcons are messy and as such I think we need to rely on reliable WP:SECONDARY sources, which is Wikipedia policy anyway. I have asked for more opinions at WT:COMICS. I'd like to see what others think.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 19:51, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

That is fair enough. However we should remember the other facts pointed out as well. The cestus was used in the pages of the Venus series, however during the retcon Aphrodite had it. Meaning it was always in her possession. NOBODY else would have that other than the Goddess. And as shown in the retcon, the siren didn't have it, the goddess did, quite rightly. And there are powers displayed that only Aphrodite has, given the retcon listed all of the Sirens. And the MAJOR one was the flashback endured in the pages of the Venus series. And Aphrodite stated in the retcon that she was present and active during the time the flashback went back to, which means it must have been her, not the siren.

You can also view all of this information on the Marvel Wikia on Aphrodites page. The retcon explained in the sirens origins, that she installed herself into the agents of Atlas in the guise of the Goddess and that is supposed to have taken place after the Venus series when Aphrodite left earth again and wasn't seen until the retcon where the siren is introduced and her origin is explained. It should be noted that while the Marvel wikia isn't an OFFICIAL source of information, it IS however guarded by serious hardcore marvel fans and they all know they're stuff because they live and breathe it and they've all agreed that Aphrodite debuted in the 40s. And unlike most sources of information, the Marvel wikia isn't subjected to one opinion or even two. A LOT of people argue and debate on there regarding the correct information to be used because they're very passionate about it. So it can be trusted more than any other source, considering the information supplied on the official website is inaccurate.

That information is viewable here on Aphrodites Marvel Wikia page: This is the marvel wikia page for the Siren:

We can wait to see what others think.

The information for the debut is also wrong that you have listed. The siren first debuted in 2006 in Agents of Atlas #1. That was her very first appearance. And then she continued to appear in the comics. And then in 2009 in Xmen Vs Agents of Atlas her origins were explained as a siren because she wasn't consistent with the portrayal before 2006 and that's because as is explained, she's an impostor. The Goddess that then appeared in the 40s and issues before 2006 then resurfaces in 2009s Xmen vs agents of Atlas to confront her for parading as her. You can find all that information also listed on the Marvel wikia page for the siren that I listed above. Again this is the most reliable source of information considering that groups of hardcore marvel fans have put hours into doing it, debating with each other and collecting the information.94.195.240.173 (talk) 21:05, 1 December 2015 (UTC)Aphy

So, what's the conclusion of the siren vs goddess debate, to my knowledge all the marvel wikias, sites and handbooks agree that the siren only appeared in 2006, the goddess as the one that appeared in the 1948 series. Some INFO contrary to this consensus to change the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2800:200:F410:3630:C923:D11B:5E45:C024 (talk) 01:49, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Solved Issue
The situation of the two characters was already resolved Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A to Z #12 of 2010 There are clearly TWO entries of Venus (Aphrodite) and Venus (Siren). The first one had the First appareance in Venus #1 (1948).

The second had her first appareance in Agent of Atlas #1 (2006).

So, there is no need to appeal to the fandom wiki. Marvel already decided the affair 14 years before in the mentioned handbook. --179.6.164.217 (talk) 07:20, 12 July 2024 (UTC)