Talk:Verteba Cave/GA1

GA Review
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Nominator: 18:01, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Esculenta (talk · contribs) 18:26, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Looks interesting! Will have comments up here within a few days. Please let me know if you are intending to take this article to FAC; if so, I could prove more thorough commentary (if you want). Otherwise I'll stick to assessing the GA criteria. Esculenta (talk) 18:26, 14 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Although this my first GAN (despite being here for 10 years!) and I've not even considered it could go to FA, I love picky feedback so the more you want to give the merrier. No pressure though!  –  T C  Memoire  19:52, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I've had my first readthrough. My impressions are ... it's quite informative and well-written! Here are some suggestions and nitpicks for your perusal:

Lead
 * The MoS suggests that we avoid linking consecutive words together (MOS:SEAOFBLUE), but's there's a triple in the lead sentence ("a karstic gypsum cave "). How about instead "a karstic cave formed in gypsum," and either unlink the common word "cave" or save the link for the following sentence.
 * link prehistoric, artefact
 * "have been found with injuries consistent with being intentionally killed" suggest tweak "have been found bearing injuries consistent with being intentionally killed" (avoid duplicate & close "with")
 * the lead seems a bit short on details relative to the length of the article. How about mentioning the unique geological formation of the cave, and its status as a habitat for endangered bat species?

Description
 * link tributary, Transnistria

History
 * links: excavations; maybe History of the Jews in Ukraine might be a better targeted link than the current unspecific one?
 * are there any more words that could be said about who Jan Khmeletsky was, and if anything interesting notable between 1822 and 1876?

Geology
 * link sedimentary rock; Stratigraphically; deposits; prehistory
 * it should be made more clear that the given length of 8km is "the combined length of all passageways inside the cave"
 * Because Eastern European Platform and the Carpathian Foredeep are redlinks, perhaps the text could give a short gloss or explanation as to what these are.
 * maybe a short gloss of "transverse artesian flow", e.g. "(when water under pressure moves sideways through permeable rock layers, potentially carving out underground channels")
 * how about putting the mya parenthetically to save some clicks for readers like me who haven't memorized the timescale of the epochs?
 * does Clastic rock need to be capitalised?

Archaeology
 * links: ceramics; anthropomorphic; zoomorphic; stone tool; dugout; hearth; sherd; artefact; Neolithic Europe; Isotopic analysis; ritualistic; medieval
 * "Kraków Archaeological Museum of Archaeology" -> Archaeological Museum of Kraków
 * "Several different groups from the Cucuteni–Trypillian culture occupied the cave at different times. These periods of occupation fall within three distinct cultural horizons within this culture:" 3x "culture/al" is a bit too much
 * I notice that both the CI and CII cultural horizons, and the Koshylovetska and Kasperivska ceramic typologies overlap; is this intentional?
 * who are the Branzeni?
 * "The Kasperivska material displays Funnelbeaker and Baden cultural influence, and cord impressions and distinct rim cuts tie the Verteba Cave ceramics into a widely distributed pattern of Anatolian and Balkan influence stretching as far as modern-day Poland." this sentence is dense in archaeological terminology. Might I suggest tweaking the prose for a more straightforward presentation, viz. "The Kasperivska artifacts show influences from the Funnelbeaker and Baden cultures, evident in the unique patterns and shapes cut into the rims of the ceramics. These styles, along with designs pressed into the clay with cords, link the pottery found in Verteba Cave to similar styles seen across a large area that includes Anatolia, the Balkans, and reaches as far as modern-day Poland."
 * "…occupied the cave for a period of about 803 years…" the estimate seem unusually precise for an archaeological context, especially considering that carbon dating has a standard error ranging from ±25 years to several centuries.
 * "BCE displays ties to the Yamnaya and Corded Ware cultures, displaying a more" displays …displaying

Extra thoughts
 * How about including the floor area & capacity of the cave? (Kadrow & Potkutta p.1)
 * I found it interesting that human teeth recovered from the Verteba Cave have been used to assess the oral health impacts of the transition to agriculture on the Tripolye culture, demonstrating that this shift was associated with a significant increase in dental caries compared to earlier hunter-fisher-gatherer groups in the region. source Worthy of inclusion?


 * I read the Ukrainian version (Ukr) of the same article to compare the information presentation in the two language versions. Some takeaways:
 * Historical and Archaeological Importance:
 * Ukr specifically designates Verteba Cave as a geological and archaeological site of national significance, highlighting its formal status.
 * Ukr contains detailed historical narratives about the discovery and subsequent archaeological explorations not fully covered in the English version. This includes stories about the initial exploration and significant findings from different archaeological periods.
 * Length of the Cave: Ukr provides a specific length for the cave's underground passages (9021 meters), which differs slightly from the English version (8555 meters). It also mentions variability in the reported lengths.
 * Cultural and Historical Details:
 * Ukr mentions the cave being declared a part of the natural reserve by the Council of Ministers of the Ukrainian SSR in 1971 and by the Cabinet Ministers of Ukraine in 1992, which emphasizes the cave's conservation history.
 * Ukr mentions that in 2018, an ancient oven-bed (a combination of an oven and a sleeping platform, common in many ancient and traditional dwellings across Eastern Europe) was discovered. This finding, according to Mikhailo Sokhatsky, indicated that the Trypillian people may have stayed in the cave not temporarily, as many scholars previously thought, but for extended periods, suggesting suggests a more permanent and complex use of the cave than what might have been understood from earlier research.
 * Conservation and Modern Use: Ukr talks about the conservation efforts and how the cave is currently part of the national natural park "Dniester Canyon." There's also mention of a sport speleological route for well-prepared visitors.
 * Zoological info: the Ukr mention of bat populations and their protection status is a bit more detailed; also, four species of bats that inhabit the cave are listed as protected in the Red Book of Ukraine


 * The current lead image is from 2006; a 2017 photo shows that there is now a pathway leading to the entrance.

There's no obligation to include any of this extra stuff, as I think the article currently is pretty close to meeting the "broadness" criterion for GA, but I place it here for your consideration. Esculenta (talk) 04:53, 24 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Apologies for the late response! I had a medical episode and have been recovering the last couple of weeks.
 * I have implemented most of the changes you've recommended. Some notes:
 * Updated the infobox image and added another to the Archaeology section.
 * I don't want to wikilink to Transnistria as the full noun is the Transnistrian karst region and doesn't correlate to the state.
 * I tried but could find nothing more on Jan Khmeletsky, I tried with other spellings as well. Not sure what else can be done on that front, I would bet any sources regarding him might either be offline and/or in Polish or Ukrainian. There seems to be nothing published about activity in the cave between 1822–1876; if anything does exist it's probably in the archaeological archives, which we can't access.
 * The overlap between the typologies and cultures is intentional; these horizons persisted at different times in different locations. The dates in the article are for the cultural horizon as a whole, I've clarified that in the article.
 * I agree that 803 years is oddly precise (as someone with an archaeology degree, it's odd they included such a precise figure in the article without the immediate caveat of it being mathematically or RC derived); I've improved the phrasing there.
 * I updated the total length of the cave as a range in both the infobox and prose, I hope it's not too clunky.
 * One thing I overlooked is the current status of that emergency exit the Jewish refugees created. As far as I can tell, this exit either no longer exists (probably covered up by topsoil) or simply isn't used. Its location is certainly known at least by Chris Nicola, as he included photos of it in his book and the documentary (which I was able to watch!). This is an unanswered question in the article, but I can't find any source that mentions whether or not that entrance is now closed and probably can't be answered without original research.
 * Added a couple new sources, both by Sokhatskyi (see Sokhatskyi and Potekhina 2022 in References; Snitovskyi 2018 in Citations. Both are in Ukrainian. One is an interview with Sokhatskyi, but since he's pretty indisputably the leading researcher on this site, I think it's perfectly fine to use. I also found and added the source for the 2018 oven discovery.
 * Did a little tweaking to the headings within the Archaeology section. I decided the use of Osteoarchaeology was too specialized.
 * Thanks for pointing out the cave floor area/capacity, I somehow totally missed that in Kadrow and Pokutta 2016.
 * I checked the website for the Dniester Canyon Preserve and couldn't confirm if the cave is or isn't inside the actual reserve boundaries. The maps are such poor quality, and there's no mention of Verteba itself (although several of the other caves are mentioned by name). I also can't find lists of monuments for it being listed on any register.
 * Anything else on the Ukrainian version of the article is unsourced, and I was unable to find the origin of the other statements. It's a shame the article is so poorly sourced inline, as there are some other nuggets in there but simply aren't supported by the sources.
 * I'll still be making improvements to the article in line with your recommendations and other info I've found! I plan on adding more about the dental caries. I saw the article but decided it was too niche, but now that you've mentioned it and I've gone and given it a second look, I'll use it to expand the Diet section.  –  T C  Memoire  20:46, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The improvements look great! I made a couple of minor copyedits (please check). A few more comments after a second read:
 * the lead should include a mention of the material in the "Zoology" section
 * isotopic analysis should be linked on its first mention
 * Images: all have suitable licences and are appropriately captioned
 * spot-checks: I checked several of the online sources to verify text-source integrity and didn't see any issues.
 * Verteba Cave isn't in the Template:Seven Wonders of Ukraine, so I don't think including this WP:navbox follows best practices.
 * These are minor details that don't affect the GA status of this article, so I'm happy to promote at this time. Nice work on your first GA! Esculenta (talk) 16:16, 8 May 2024 (UTC)