Talk:Vi veri universum vivus vici

"Oeniversum"
In addition to the sourcing issues discussed below, I can't seem to find oeniversum in any Latin dictionaries. In Crowley's work, it always appears as "vniversum" or "universum". My suspicion is that "Veniversum" originated as a (recent) misspelling of the actual quote, and the contributor of this 'fact' is trying to justify the misspelling for whatever reason. Skatche (talk) 04:13, 9 October 2008 (UTC)


 * It is my suspicion that the only origin of the "veniversum" spelling comes from the graphic novel "V for Vendetta" where it would fit with the main character's fondness for the letter "V". Searches via Google Books seem to reveal no other attested source of "veniversum" etc., though the Crowley use seems well attested. --Pmetzger (talk) 05:45, 6 November 2011 (UTC)


 * "The pointed form 'v' was written at the beginning of a word, while a rounded form 'u' was used in the middle or end, regardless of sound", perhaps this is why it appears to start with a V in V for Vendetta so it was in keeping with his title.

Source?
Can anyone actually show where this phrase shows up in Marlowe's Faustus? I've gone through two different Marlowe concordances looking for this, and it doesn't show up in either. I checked both in English and in Latin, and as far as I can tell, Marlowe never used it. If anyone can give me the act and scene for where he used it, I would be very interested. However, I now believe that the attribution to Marlowe is an error. I hope I'm wrong, because Marlowe himself fits perfectly into the themes of V For Vendetta... 152.1.209.182 14:50, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The only apparent reason for the belief that the quotation comes from either Marlowe or Goethe is the attribution made in the film version of "V for Vendetta". There is no apparent evidence that this attribution is accurate, and the graphic novel makes no such attribution. The oldest source I can find for the phrase would appear to be Crowley. --Pmetzger (talk) 05:48, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

I just remembered... Did you know that Vendetta-writer Alan Moore happens to be awfully fond of Crowley-style ritual magick? Who knows if he included the misspelling or the wrong source by mistake, for reasons of artistic license or even deliberatly made up a new source because he didn't wanted to openly quote Crowley, who can easily be labeled a "faustian" personality himself? The only thing that seems to be clear about it is that no version of Faust from Marlowe or Goethe ever included this phrase, but then again, I've heard there are plenty more and much older versions of that same tale, dating back to the year 1587... and who knows which one Alan Moore was reading?

Translation
The article says the translation is "By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe". I don't read Latin, but I'm sure this is not a literal translation? The Dutch Wikipedia has it translated as "By the Power of Truth I have conquered the Universe", which sounds more plausible to me. Can someone with a Classical background give some insights into the literal translation? Jalwikip 10:08, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * It looks more or less right to me - "living" needs to be in there, because that's what "vivus" means. A literal translation would be, I think, "By force of truth I, living, conquered the universe"Vultur 15:00, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok, it would be nice to have a gloss though... Jalwikip 14:27, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Goethe?
It is said above that the movie "V for Vendetta" wrongly credits the phrase by attributing it to Goethe's Faust when V only says "From Faust." He never mentions Goethe by name.

[By anonymous IP on main article page] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.167.74.70 (talk) 15:03, 4 March 2007 (UTC).

The attribution was to Christopher Marlowe's "Dr. Faustus" but that attribution comes from Crowley. Mpaniello (talk) 01:11, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Source
I searched for this phrase in a digital copy of Marlowe's Faust abd a digital copy of Goethe's Faust  and didn't find the phrase. Any results from a google search result in references to V for Vendetta. 207.47.93.226 09:23, 10 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It does indeed appear to have been used by Crowley as early as 1923 however. A search of the phrase using "universum" instead of "veniversum" on Google Books turns up several primary sources attesting to that. As I've noted above, there is no attested evidence to the use of the phrase by either Marlowe or Goethe. --Pmetzger (talk) 05:49, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

made popular by V?
given the sheer number of other popular novels that reference it its madness to claim something that came alot longer after most of them for bringing to phrase into common knowledge just because its been made into a movie —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.152.97.194 (talk) 19:47, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

veniversum make no sense
Etymologically it must be universum, or if you want to keep the Vs it should be vniversVM. In Rome the letter U didn't exist, and the letter V BEFORE the 1st century AD had the /u/ sound. That's why saying VniversUM is inconsistent: It is either UniversUM or VniversVM.

VENIversum is an absurdity, which makes no freaking sense etymologically. The only reason that we have this popular "alternative" is because it has been misspelled in V for Vendetta.

I think it is time to correct this misconception for once. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.116.182.17 (talk) 03:58, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Surely its either uniurseum or veniversvm then. Veniversvm seems more correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.149.149.198 (talk) 18:11, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Ok, what do to "vivus" then? "vivvs"? Boubbin (talk) 01:37, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Source issues
I've added a refimprove tag at the top of the page. Sources two and four are primary sources (WP:PRIMARY). I have removed source 3 as it constitutes a copyright violation (per WP:YOUTUBE). I've also added a citation needed tag to the claim that "the true origin of the term is from the privately published German work, Das Erotische in Goethes Faust und die Tantriks" as the only sources I can find for this claim are blogspot posts or people attributing the phrase to this work because they saw it on Wikipedia. If anyone can find a reliable source for this claim, it would help. --chrisFjordson (talk) 23:28, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

plausibly referenced
Crowley's diary was first published in 1952. Clearly, Nye picked the phrase up from there, and attributed it to Faust in his 1980 novel. The author of the 1982 graphic novel picked it up from Nye, retaining the attribution to Faust but garbling "veniversum" to retain the v sound. There is no evidence that the phrase predates Crowley. --dab (𒁳) 19:38, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

Crowley Source
The article states that the first reference to V.V.V.V.V. in Crowley's works is in The Cry of the 4th Aethyr, giving a link to a text of the work. However, V.V.V.V.V. doesn't seem to appear anywhere in the text. I've read the five Vs in several places in Crowley, but given how extensive his output was, I can't remember where off the top of my head. I'll do some research when I have some free time. Mpaniello (talk) 01:13, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

It should have been Vi veri veni versum vivi vici
By the power of truth I become a verse of living victory.

But one might change versum to verbum

By the power of truth I become the word of living victory.

^^That makes absolutely no grammatical sense at all.^^ Could you cite a source in which those exact phrases and translations appear? Mpaniello (talk) 17:50, 13 February 2021 (UTC)