Talk:Vicente Lusitano

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I (Camembert) have rewritten the old contents of this page (mainly using and Grove Concise), because it was pretty hard to understand - I think it may have been a BabelFish translation. This isn't really an area I know a great deal about, and this talk of "genera" rather goes over my head, but it's what other sources talk about, so I'm guessing it's right. I've put the old content below in case it's useful.

LUSITANO, Vicente (b.Olivença-d.Roma, 16th Century)

Although he has been author of some musical workmanships, the name of Vicente Lusitano over all is remembered as theoretician, thanks to célebre polémica that it had in Rome, in 1551, with Nicola Vicentino. Little is known on its life, not even the dates of birth and death. In accordance with some historical sources of XVII and XVIII Centuries, would have been musician of D. Afonso de Lencastre during a short period of time and would have taught in Pádua and Viterbo after having been commanded priest. In 1550 member of the choir of the Papal Chapel became and in 1551 primus published its "Liber epigramatum that vulgo motetta dicuntur" (Rome, 1551). One year later d'herb'et "in the seio of an intitled colecção" prime Il is given to the print the madrigal "fior ch'ignuda All'hor libro delle MUSE" (Venice, 1552). It was during a reception in house of Florentine banker Bernardine Acciaioli who blew up the famous debate with the musician and NicolaVicentino theoretician, in the sequência of the hearing of a musical part. The Portuguese defended that all the music of the time could be explained through género diatónico, while its adversary affirmed that this age one mixes of the géneros diatónico, chromatic and enarmónico, thus showing a vanguardista position, related with the speculations on the old musical theory Greek and its application to the music of its time. Although its opinion more conservative, or perhaps had it, Lusitano was declared winning by a jury of specialists. Its points of view had been developed in the treated "Introdutione facillissima et novissima di sing fermo..." (Rome, 1533). The workmanship had more two editions in Venice (1558 and 1561) and would have been translated in Portuguese, in 1603, by cónego Bernardine da Fonseca. In each one of editions printed, the first part says respect to the basic particularitities of music, including the study of claves, the mutations, the intervals, the notation, etc. In the second part the improvised counterpoint, one technique very appreciated in the 16th Century and developed with great mestria in the choir of the Papal Chapel is explored practical. Some rules to improvise two or more inferior superior parts out to one "cantus firmus" given are illustrated by numerous examples. In the end it has a small quarrel on the question of the géneros diatónico, chromatic and enarmónico.

African?
The reference says he is of african descent. Searching the source you can see it makes two mentions of the person in question,

''Vicente Lusitano was of African descent and wrote a famous book on musical theory. He was born in Portugal, went to Rome in the early sixteenth century, and then went on to a German court, and he must have spoken the languages of all these places. and (...)Vicente Lusitano, author of an important book on musical theory.''

The author's own references trace back to "Maria Augusta Alves Barbosa, Vicentivs Lvsitanvs: Ein portugiesischer Komponist und Musiktheoretiker des 16. Jahrhunderts (Lisbon: Estado da Cultura, 1977)" and "Robert Stevenson, “The First Black Published Composer,” Inter-American Music Review 5 (1982)".

Here's an excerpt from one of the works that mention the Vicente Lusitano here on page 51.

(...) Duke Christoph of Württemberg (ruled 1550-68) at Stuttgart even boasted a black musical theorist and composer called Vicente Lusitano.Vicente was probably born to a white father and black mother in the Alentejo in Portugal.

Will remove the "African descent" part of the article as it is unproven and its legitimacy is based all on the words of someone who did not work in genetics or worked in the study of phenotypes. The person in the article "could" have been a very tanned portuguese man living in Alentejo which is a region in the south of Portugal with alot of daylight time.

Will also remove categories related to his possible african descent.


 * What you have just done is removed information that is in three cited reliable sources based on your personal opinions that this information would need to be from a person who works "in genetics or worked in the study of phenotypes". If you want to challenge a well cited statement from multiple reliable sources you would need to find a source that contradicts and challenges it. Lusitano is rather famous for being of African Descent, a discovery spearheaded by Robert Stevenson, a respect musicologist. Musicologists write about musicians, that's all it is. Aza24 (talk) 01:04, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

All secondary and terciary sources about Vicente Lusitano are based on the biography made by Diogo Barbosa Machado (which makes no mention of his skin color) and a contemporary description made about him from Duke Christoph of Württemberg (who mentions his skin color).The first secondary source was made by Maria Augusta Barbosa and that source was her own phd work about Vicente Lusitano called ''Maria Augusta Alves Barbosa, Vicentivs Lvsitanvs: Ein portugiesischer Komponist und Musiktheoretiker des 16. Jahrhunderts (Lisbon: Estado da Cultura, 1977)''. All other secondary and terciary sources regurgitate this narrative.

Here's a review of her work found here http://revista.brasil-europa.eu/148/Vincentivs-Lvsitanvs.html Translation :

'''Finally, who was Vincentius Lusitanus? '''

'''This question does not arise only for the reader who seeks concrete data about the figure mentioned in the title of the work and who, after reading it, can acquire the impression that much is said and nothing is said. This question was also raised by Maria Augusta A. Barbosa's advisor and advisers, who suggested - or demanded - that the work be completed, including a summary biography of the Portuguese musician and theorist, with a clear indication of the known works and the specific bibliography. Here, then, the researcher offers, unwillingly and almost ironically, a summary in the form of a lexical entry:  VINCENTIVS LVSITANVS (16th century; birth and death dates as well as unknown places; first documentary data: beginning of June 1551; last: June 2, 1561).  The oldest lexicographic news about Vincentius Lusitanus dates back to the 17th century and does not provide sources (João Barreto, * 1600 and P. Francisco da Cruz, 1629-1706); the third and more detailed, also indicating sources, appeared in the Bibliotheca Lusitana de Barbosa Machado in 1752. According to these data, Vincentius Lusitanus was born in Olivença, a town located on the Portuguese-Spanish border and which was then found under Portuguese sovereignty, and served as music provider in Rome, Viterbo and Padua. (...) Thus, it is perfectly conceivable that the composer obtained his training in Olivenza, then Episcopal seat of Ceuta, where at least since 1534-1534 there was a music chair (cantus planus and cantus figuratus) directed by Pero Brugel. '''

'''There is no indication of Vincentius Lusitanus until the beginning of June 1551. About the first day of that month, after a musical event in Rome, at the home of Florentine banker Bernardo Acchiaioli, he entered into an argument with Nicola Vicentino about the true genre of music by So. In the trial that followed the dispute on the part of Ghiselin Danckert and Bartolomeo Escobedo, Vincentius Lusitanus' position was seen as correct (...). '''

'''When, why and by what ways Vincentius Lusitanus arrived in the Italian Peninsula, moreover for what reasons he settled there, it is totally unknown in the current situation of the research. '''

'''In 1553 the first edition of his Introdutione Facilissima appeared in Rome, by Antonio Blado. In 1551 or 1556, his collection of Liber Primus Epigramatum motets was published, which was known as motetta dicuntur "(...). Through Motu Proprio and the dedication of this collection, it becomes known that Vincentius belonged to the Diocese of Ceuta and was related with the son of the Portuguese ambassador in Rome. (...) In 1553, this time in Venice by Francesco Marcolini, the second, slightly enlarged edition of the Introduction, followed by a third, in 1561 (...). On May 30, 1561, Vincentius Lusitanus requested in Württemberg the Bishop of Capo d'Istria, the Italian of Petrus Paulus Vergerius, converted to Protestantism and who was at the time in Baden-Baden, acting since November 1553 as advisor to Duke Christoph At the request of the Italian count Giulio a Thiene, one of the most active promoters of Protestantism in Northern Italy, the aforementioned bishop sought to secure a post for Vincentius Lusitanus in the chapel of the Court of Württemberg. the Portuguese musician came, he didn’t take him on duty. The Beati omnes motet, which exists in manuscript and preserved in the State Library of Stuttgart (...), probably dates from that time. Since June 1st of that year, there is no personal indication of the Portuguese musician. The fact, however, that the Paris Esp. 219 was discovered in France, allows the question to be asked (...) if he did not live in France after June 1561 and died there. '''

In 1562, the only Madrigal known to him was born in Venice, after Vincentius Lusitanus fled Italy: All'hor ch'ignuda (...) "(op.cit. 455-457) 

Actually, you should translate the whole article yourself and give it a read, the person who made that review read phd work she made.

I will add in the article the contextualization that his possible african descent is disputed.

Ygglow (talk) 03:38, 3 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the source, I've been planning on working on this article for a while so when I do I will be sure to check out the full reference you provide. I appreciate your alteration to the text, much better now. Aza24 (talk) 04:03, 3 October 2020 (UTC)


 * I have read the entirety of the above comments and did not see any information that indicated (let alone proved) that Lusitano was of partial African ancestry. Have I missed something?  Where is this information? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 23:39, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes you have. See the second reference in the article. Aza24 (talk) 00:22, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * No you haven't missed anything. There is an inference that he may have been of mixed race, but the actual origin of that race is pure speculation (see below). 2001:8003:70F5:2400:B4E4:7121:71A:9EDC (talk) 12:31, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Great ref for article expansion
https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20220615-the-lost-16th-century-black-composer-vicente-lusitano — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.161.8.90 (talk) 11:26, 16 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Ah, another parrot alights on the tree! What is particularly amazing about this source is both the acknowledgement that Lusitano 'may' have been of mixed race and then the immediate propensity thereafter to declare him as 'black' bereft of any definitive evidence.


 * It is not half as bad as this very similar source: which is even more stunning in its capacity to bring the barest of evidence coupled with unrelated and misleading population data to a definitive conclusion. Quote: "Crucially, he was described as “pardo” by his first biographer. The term signified a mixed-race person of white European and African parentage. Lusitano was Black."


 * Hmmm yes, ... all people in Africa are Black! Prior to their sea-faring explorations in the 15th Century, the Africans that had been known to the Portuguese/Iberians for two-millennia and more were not persons that we would consider today as black! The authors also do not consider the possibility that Lusitano's parentage may have sourced from one of the New World peoples.


 * Both authors seem to lack comprehension in understanding the difference between persons of Arab and North African heritage (a long history in Portugal) and Niger-Congo peoples that had only recently come into the purview of the Portuguese World nor incidentally, of Amerindians. The word 'black' when used to refer to an ethnic group does not translate linearly in History and the Portuguese and Spanish had very specific and unambiguous words to refer to the origins of persons of mixed race (and if his 'biographer' had wished to be explicit on the matter he could have used such words). Less dramatic, the term pardo might just as easily be interpreted literally as Lusitano being a 'naked' performer as some composers have had want to do or, an expression that related to his 'style'. He could with the same puzzling extrapolation of logic used in [2-6] be claimed with equal veracity as a mixed South American composer or, as is more likely North African (Berber, Arab, Sephardim, ...)! Suffice to say, any claims surrounding the ethnicity of Lusitano need to be taken with a grain of salt as it is evident (painfully so in this source [6]) that his ethnicity and parentage are being scripted as the product of wishful and contrived thinking.


 * The authors of these two documents seem less interested in Historical accuracy and perhaps more so in furthering a narrative that curries favour with their patrons/peers!

2001:8003:70F5:2400:B4E4:7121:71A:9EDC (talk) 10:05, 30 October 2022 (UTC)