Talk:Vickery Meadow, Dallas/GA1

GA Review
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Hi, I'll review the article. Parrot of Doom (talk) 19:50, 10 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Lead - the lead is far too short. It should be a summary of the article - I usually include a factoid or statement from each paragraph or section of the article in the lead.
 * Is the lead still too short, or is it large enough? WhisperToMe (talk) 19:52, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Still too short - have a look at WP:Lead, it offers good advice on how to improve a lead section. Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:04, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "The apartments opened to provide housing for singles and couples who arrived to Dallas to look for jobs." - the apartments opened?  This should be "The apartment complex was opened (or built, or planned, etc)..."  What are singles and couples?  I know they're people, but this isn't immediately obvious, and people don't arrive to a place, they arrive at or in a place . Parrot of Doom (talk) 12:20, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "In 1988 the U.S. federal government passed the Fair Housing Act, which, under most circumstances, prohibits apartment complexes from refusing children." - it isn't the apartment complex that is prohibiting anything, its the people managing it that. "refusing children" - refusing them what?
 * "prohibits apartment complexes from refusing children from staying in the complexes" - this is still poor grammar, and quite confusing. An apartment complex is a group of buildings.  Consider "made illegal/prohibits any policy that excludes families with children from living in an apartment/apartment complex/social housing (etc) (delete as appropriate)."  You have added "The passage of the act, which forced the complexes to admit children," - does this mean that all apartment complexes are legally obliged to place families with children into the apartments&mdash;do they have a quota to fulfill - or does it mean that if those families exist, they can no longer be excluded? Parrot of Doom (talk) 12:20, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I used the suggested sentence. WhisperToMe (talk) 19:27, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "This and a rental market recession caused a decrease in rent prices." - this is probably intended to set up a scenario, but the paragraph doesn't then quantify why this sentence is important. Was the complex a financial/social failure? Parrot of Doom (talk) 12:20, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "Vickery Meadow's demographics changed throughout the 1990s as immigrants and refugees from Mexico, Central America, Bosnia, and parts of Africa moved into Vickery Meadow apartment complexes." - should that be demographic profile, and what is different about 'Vickery Meadow' as first mentioned, to 'Vickery Meadow apartment complexes' - the way the sentence is structured makes it seem as though they're two different things? Also, although the complex is known by two names, it would be best to use only a single name, to avoid confusing the reader. Parrot of Doom (talk) 12:20, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * There are still instances where different names for Vickery Meadow are used. Parrot of Doom (talk) 12:20, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 1. Changed the last instance of "Vickery Meadows" to "Vickery Meadow," aside from the lead.
 * 2. I don't know of any instances where unexplained names for the community are used. The VMID name has been explained in the lead. WhisperToMe (talk) 19:27, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * There are seven instances of 'Vickery Meadows' but the article is named 'Vickery Meadow' and the lead states that the former is an alternate name. You should, official titles excepted, try and use only one version of the name. Parrot of Doom (talk) 20:57, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Removed the unexplained alternate naming - BTW, the elementary school was originally named "Vickery Meadows" elementary, so that remains. WhisperToMe (talk) 23:38, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "Vickery Meadow did not have very much infrastructure intended for the new families." - poor grammar
 * "In 1993 the Vickery Meadow Improvement District opened" - why did it open, what did it hope to achieve? Parrot of Doom (talk) 12:20, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "In 2004, Casie Pierce, the executive director of the Vickery Meadow Public Improvement District, argued in an editorial to The Dallas Morning News that Vickery Meadows ought to be redeveloped into a modern urban renewal redevelopment.[5]" - 'editorial to' - that should be 'editorial in The Dallas...'. The newspaper name should be italicised.  Over-use of 'redevelopment'. Parrot of Doom (talk) 12:20, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "Fire Station 37 of the Dallas Fire Department, serving Vickery Meadow, opened in 1954.[8] Two city council districts, 9 and 13, serve sections of Vickery Meadow" - do they serve the apartment complex, or the residents of that complex?
 * They serve the complexes and their residents. The owner has a stake, since he doesn't want his property to burn down, and the residents, who need to be rescued in case of a fire. WhisperToMe (talk) 19:52, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * At the moment the article seems to suggest that the Fire Service serves Vickery Meadow exclusively. I think an easy way around this would be to quickly mention that Vickery Meadow is located in the area that that particular Fire Service serves.  Perhaps you could reword to "the closest fire station is...", or "Vickery Meadow is in (whichever locale), which is served by the (Fire Service number)".  Does that work for you?  Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:12, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, that works. :) WhisperToMe (talk) 23:42, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "Vickery Meadow is located in District 114 of the Texas House of Representatives. As of 2008 Will Hartnett represents the district.[14] Vickery Meadows is within District 16 of the Texas Senate; as of 2008 John Carona represents that district.[15] Vickery Meadows is in Texas's 32nd congressional district; as of 2008 Pete Sessions represents the district.[16]" - over-use of 'Vickery Meadow' - consider making this more readable with prose, for instance "Vickery Meadow is located... The complex is within District 16....  It is represented by Pete Sessions, in the Texas 32nd..."
 * "Dallas Area Rapid Transit" - this should be "The Dallas Area Rapid Transit authority" as per that article.
 * "Bus routes serving Vickery Meadow include 428, 502, 506, 583, and 702." - this is probably more due to my unfamiliarity with the Texan public transport system, but would it be possible to explain to the reader what those numbers mean? Are they the actual routes, or are they the numbers of the vehicles using those routes?
 * These numbers always refer to the designated routes and never to the individual vehicles. WhisperToMe (talk) 23:42, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "Around 2004 the Vickery Meadow area, consisting of 5.3 square miles (14 km2) of land, including open parkland, had around 53,000 by 2006." - 53,000 what? Parrot of Doom (talk) 20:23, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * A small matter I just noticed - which date is correct, 2004, or 2006? Parrot of Doom (talk) 12:20, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I selected 2004 since the census was administered then. The article which contains the information was written in 2006. By 53,000 I mean residents. WhisperToMe (talk) 19:34, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I have to say I think the article needs an extensive re-write. There are significant (but easily repaired) problems with the prose and grammar. There are a couple of minor issues with the referencing (unclosed ref tags, duplicate references), and not a single citation template is used anywhere - this isn't strictly necessary, but it does make the reference section a lot tidier, and easier to understand, especially when other editors modify the article with their own content. For instance, the use of 'accessdate' is inconsistent. Reference 3 is a large pdf document, yet no page number(s) is given to guide the reader to the information cited.

I'll place the article on hold pending answers to the above points, hopefully we can work through them and see this article at GA. Parrot of Doom (talk) 20:23, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Regarding the PDF, it is possible to use a text search to find the information. Would it still require a page number even if all of the information is in a searchable document? EDIT: I added a page number for the 20 page PDF WhisperToMe (talk) 23:42, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll implement many of these changes. However:
 * About the grammar: from my understanding "much" is to be used when a thing cannot be put into quantity, while "many" is used when something can be put into a quantity. For instance "There are too many liters of sand," vs. "There is too much sand." What do you suggest for a grammar change? WhisperToMe (talk) 21:12, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * What you're suggesting is the the infrastructure at the complex was inadequate for the needs of families. It should read something like that (I'll leave the precise wording to you), and it would be helpful to know why this was so. Parrot of Doom (talk) 11:03, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Alright - I decided to do that WhisperToMe (talk) 15:16, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "The newspaper name should be italicised." - The newspaper name was already italicized
 * Apologies, you're quite correct. Parrot of Doom (talk) 11:03, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You said: "do they serve the apartment complex, or the residents of that complex? " - There are multiple complexes within Vickery Meadow (the article said this from the beginning). Saying that they serve the complexes and that they serve the complexes' residents means the same thing, because the people who live in the complexes make up the complexes. The owners are only represented by these voting districts if they live in the said complexes themselves.
 * I would disagree that an apartment complex is the same thing as the society resident in that complex. A management company may serve the complex and its residents, but a political structure may well serve only the residents (with their living arrangements treated no differently than those residents living away from the complex).  I'm asking because it isn't clear to me if, for instance, the fire service deals exclusively with the complex, or if it happens to serve the complex because it's nearby?  It's the same with the political structure - do the politicians deal only with the apartment complex, or is the complex located inside whatever constituency (apologies I don't know the US terminology) those politicians serve?  I cannot see where the article states that "There are multiple complexes within Vickery Meadow". Parrot of Doom (talk) 11:03, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The text in the lead said "neighborhood of high-density apartments" - Now that I think about it, maybe "neighborhood of high-density apartment complexes" makes it clearer. Anyhow, the Dallas Fire Department does not deal exclusively with the complexes in VM; it covers the entire city limits, but has individual stations in different sections of the city. WhisperToMe (talk) 15:16, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "The Dallas Area Rapid Transit authority" - Authority is not part of the agency's name - Here authority is lower case, meaning it is not a part of the name.
 * It doesn't read correctly. The first line of the DART article states "The Dallas Area Rapid Transit authority", which I believe is the correct useage. Parrot of Doom (talk) 11:03, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The website of the agency says "Dallas Area Rapid Transit" - the article says "The Dallas Area Rapid Transit authority - Authority is not bolded and it is lowercase. Here "authority" is being used to describe what DART is; it's not actually a part of the agency's name. WhisperToMe talk) 21:19, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The link in the article does not go to the DART webpage - it goes to the DART Wikipedia article. I wouldn't rely on the DART website as a guide to proper grammar - it's quite poorly written, and looks as though it's designed only to be easily remembered.  Its only a couple of words, 'The' and 'authority', and yet it makes the sentence more readable and instantly conveys more information to the reader without him/her having to click on the link to clarify.  Another example is Dallas Independent School District - you have omitted a 'The', but the DISD's own article does not. Parrot of Doom (talk) 12:20, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * One could also add a ", the area transit authority," - And AFAIK omitting the "the" with the DISD would be grammatically correct (as would simply saying DART verb yyy) - it just sounds better - Also I don't see how not to rely on the DART webpage; it's not up to us to dictate how the agency uses its grammar. Plus "DART" is a noun of one entity, so it is acceptable to say DART did X. WhisperToMe (talk) 19:19, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I modified your entry slightly, let me know if that works for you. Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:12, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, both of the modifications work :) WhisperToMe (talk) 23:43, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Ok I still have the remainder of the article to review (I tend to split a review into halves, its easier that way in case the nominator can't address any concerns). So long as we can get the basic stuff out of the way, I can help with a copyedit once we're about done. I'll get back to you shortly. Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:49, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Alrighty :) WhisperToMe (talk) 04:58, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Pt 2
Ok apologies for the delay, work things...


 * "Vickery Meadow is the densest community in Dallas, and many of its residents are immigrants and refugees" - dense what? Consider "has the highest population density in Dallas" or similar
 * "The wider Vickery Meadow area," - 'greater' or 'larger' may be better than wider (eg Great Britain, Greater Manchester, Greater London) - but this is only a suggestion
 * "Of the population, 5,303 were under 6 years old, 3,932 were ages 6 through 13, 1,670 were ages 14-17, 27,555 were ages 18-64, and 2,186 were 65 or older" - consistency. Use WP:ndash to separate numbers
 * "39% of the people were considered to be in poverty" - of the population, not people
 * "The Vickery Meadow Improvement District said that the true Hispanic and Latino population may be higher due to illegal immigration" - is this an official statement, or a quote from an interview, or a conclusion of the cited article?
 * "In 2004 Vickery Meadow had 14,860 housing units, including 12,558 apartment units, 2,300 condominium units, and two single family houses" - is it correct to use 'units' throughout here? Honest question, I'm not sure of US terminology
 * "A total of 102 multi-family properties" - could you expand a little on what a multi-family property is?
 * "Stone includes two main buildings" - I had to re-read before I realised this was Stone Elementary School
 * "Tasby and Lowe share one campus and share several common areas; the two schools have their designated entrances." - consider "share a single campus and several common areas". Also could you expand a little on what you mean by designated entrances?  Are the two schools in the same building, or do they have separate entrances to the campus?
 * "In the 1990s the student population increased, requiring the building of new campuses" - why did the population increase - is that linked to the population of Vickery Meadow?
 * "planning department said that the bond program did not have sufficient funds for a new school" - what is a bond program?
 * "The district took money from the general operating fund, which would be reimbursed after the following bond program would be passed." - what is a general operating fund?
 * "Vickery Meadows Elementary School opened as the first school in Vickery Meadow; in 2005 it was renamed Jill Stone Elementary School at Vickery Meadow." - first school under the 'bond' scheme presumably?
 * "opened with pre-Kindergarten through sixth grade students" - link kindergarten, also change the grammar - presumably you mean the school caters for all ages between those years?
 * "the sixth grade would be transferred to the middle school the following year." - what is a middle school, and does 'following year' mean 2003, or is it some kind of 7th grade?
 * "In August 2006 Lowe Elementary, built with $12 million U.S. dollars, opened with kindergarten through fifth grade" - see above (no need to link kindergarten again though)
 * "During the same year Tasby and Conrad opened.[1] Tasby, built with $20 million, relieved Franklin" - this is a little confusing - I suggest adding the odd 'school' in there, otherwise it could be the subject of rather rude jokes :)
 * "The lot which Tasby and Lowe occupied " - link 'lot'
 * "Prior to Tasby's and Conrad's openings" - consider "before the opening of tasby and conrad schools..."
 * "Prior to the opening of Lowe, " - consider "before Lowe (school?) opened, "
 * "Prior to the opening of Lowe, Hexter, Lakewood, and Preston Hollow elementary schools served sections of Vickery Meadow" - do you mean "before the opening of lowe, hexter lakewood and preston..."? I know I've missed commas there but I'll re-word it if that is what you meant.  It's a little unclear which schools you are referring to when you say 'prior to'
 * Have a look at WikiProject_Cities/Guideline with regard to the section layout - I'm not convinced there is enough information on the colleges, libraries, misc edu, and healthcare. It might be better to combine them in a single section.  Also, I'm not convinced by "Miscellaneous education" - miscellaneous isn't really something we should see in an encyclopaedic article.
 * "In 1997 the Preston Hollow Presbyterian Church started the Vickery Meadow Learning Center (VMLC) as a 501(c)3" - you only mention VMLC once, so you don't yet need the abbreviation. Also, what is a 501(c)3 - some kind of legalese?  It would be great if you could offer a link, or perhaps even a footnote to explain.
 * "The program gained its own property in 1999 and established early education classes in 2002" - what/where was it between 1997 and 1999?
 * "and around 1,200 physicians" - link to physicians - nurses, doctors, physiotherapists?
 * I strongly recommend you consider using citation templates for your references. While not an absolute requirement, their use makes the references section much tidier.  It also allows users in countries that use different date formats to see references in dates that they would recognise (for instance, some countries swap the month and date around).  They're very simple to use - if you'd like help on this I'll happily change some for you.  Its your decision though.  WP:CIT.  There is a handy tool in your user preferences, go to gadgets and refTools - it automates the process.
 * All references to multi-page documents (such as pdfs) should carry page numbers (this is made easier using citation templates)
 * Any chance of an image of an apartment block? Or a more accurate map showing the layout? Parrot of Doom (talk) 17:13, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the input. I'll begin enacting changes shortly. A few things:
 * 1. I don't live in the Dallas area, so I would have to ask a Wikipedian in Dallas for photographs of Vickery Meadow apartments. Over in Gulfton, Houston I took photos of two area complexes.
 * Have a look on Flickr - users are often quite helpful, especially if you ask them to lower the resolution or similar. Parrot of Doom (talk) 19:30, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I looked at Flickr, but I didn't see anything that stood out as something to use in the article. WhisperToMe (talk) 22:20, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 2. As for a map, if you are referring to a map of the Vickery Meadow Improvement District, the current one is from the U.S. government. Do you have any suggestions for a good public domain map tool?
 * Perhaps a map showing the atypical layout of the apartments? Parrot of Doom (talk) 19:30, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps someone could make a map of the block patterns to show the layouts of the parcels. WhisperToMe (talk) 22:34, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 3. A multi-family complex refers to an apartment complex or a condominium - Do I need to put this explanation next to "multi-family"?
 * Its just that where I live, a property could be a house, apartment, mansion, or it could even be a large factory with several businesses. It just needs a little clarification. Parrot of Doom (talk) 19:30, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The "multi-family" bit is what really describes it, though. A "single family" property would more or less be a house or a mansion. A large factory would be classified as "industrial." However I'll "residential" to the "multi-family" description to make it clear that people live in them. WhisperToMe (talk) 21:01, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 4. Re: physicians, I linked the word. The source doesn't specify which kinds of physicians they are.
 * 5. AFAIK in US terminology it is acceptable to use "unit" in this manner.
 * 6. The statement about illegal immigration is an official statement from the VMID - From the Dallas Morning News article: "*Percentage might be higher because of undocumented immigrants, according to the Vickery Meadow Improvement District"
 * 7. A "bond program" refers to the implementation of a Municipal bond to build public schools. If a school bond measure on a ballot is approved, the money from the bond is used to build new schools.
 * Would be great if you could add that link to the article, or perhaps even that line. Parrot of Doom (talk) 19:30, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 8. Regarding the "general operating fund," I'm not an expert on school district finance systems, but from the context it seems like the main funds for school operation. Usually school construction money comes from bonds, created by the school district: they are specifically designed to finance school construction.
 * 9. There's a Wikipedia article about 501(c)3: 501(c)3 - I'll link to it
 * 10. Lot will be linked to Lot (real estate)
 * 11. "Prior to the opening of Lowe" is now "before Lowe opened" - This should establish that it was before Lowe (alone) opened.
 * 12. You said: "why did the population increase - is that linked to the population of Vickery Meadow? " - Yeah, the child population of Vickery Meadow increased, so I decided to make that clear in the sentence.
 * 13. You said: "- link kindergarten, also change the grammar - presumably you mean the school caters for all ages between those years?" It's actually Pre-Kindergarten through 6th. It means that the schools have the school years (or forms) PreKindergarten and 6th Grade, and everything in between.
 * Ok if you could just clarify that, I wasn't quite sure what 'through' meant in this context. Parrot of Doom (talk) 19:30, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 14. Regarding what happened with the learning center between 1997 and 1999, I looked at the source and found my answer. I added "The program originally consisted of English-language classes taught in various locations throughout the community."
 * 15. Where should I add the n-dashes? Many of the numbers were placed in number conversion templates. BTW WP:ndash is a red link.
 * Have a read of the WP:MOS regarding WP:DASH - it will tell you how. Basically ndash goes between numbers, so instead of "from 4 to 10" you would write "from 4–10". Parrot of Doom (talk) 19:30, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Alrighty! I am looking for places to use MDashes. WhisperToMe (talk) 22:26, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 16. You said: "with regard to the section layout - I'm not convinced there is enough information on the colleges, libraries, misc edu, and healthcare. It might be better to combine them in a single section.  Also, I'm not convinced by "Miscellaneous education" - miscellaneous isn't really something we should see in an encyclopaedic article." - I added more information to the library section, so I think it can stand on its own. I'll have to find more info about the community college, healthcare, and "misc education" sections. I might turn misc education into something else...
 * 17. Regarding the cite template, we could do that as a last step after resolving every other issue. How does that sound?
 * 18. Tasby and Lowe have separate entrances, and they share the same building
 * WhisperToMe (talk) 18:35, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

History
The first sentence in the history section seems out of place: "The apartments opened to provide housing for singles and couples who arrived to Dallas to look for jobs." There are some facts which need to come before this statement to put it in proper context, e.g.:
 * Who built the apartments (i.e. real estate developers, entrepreneurs ... probably not government housing authorities)?
 * What did they develop (i.e., an already existing community, raw land, farm land, former railroad property, reclaimed creek lowlands)?
 * Where were the apartments in relation to Dallas, and was there any significance about the location?
 * When did this happen?
 * Why were singles and childless couples moving to Dallas, and where were they coming from? What age brackets?  What about Dallas area singles and childless couples?

There are some other questions that need to be answered in the body of the paragraph: Vereverde (talk) 17:21, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * How did Vickery Meadow(s) get its name? Is there any connection with the old community of Vickery which had been absorbed into the city of Dallas?
 * What brought about the supply and demand for housing that excluded parents with children?
 * How did this large apartment development fit in with local and national trends of the time?
 * How did the economy factor into this development?
 * What did the law say about age discrimination when Vickery Meadow was originally developed?
 * What immediate and long term problems arose for this community when federal law abolished adult-only housing?

Education

 * Should there be a parenthetical after Hillcrest High School, e.g., " ... Hillcrest High School (originally named Vickery Meadows High School)"?


 * There used to be a Vickery Independent School District that was annexed into DISD. Did this encompass Vickery Meadow?

Vereverde (talk) 17:47, 30 September 2010 (UTC)