Talk:Victim blaming/Archive 2

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Victim blame or Victim blaming?!
Victim blame or Victim blaming, which one is better for article naming, & why? KhabarNegar Talk 09:54, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I myself think "Victim Blaming" is true, but there are conversations which says the better name is "Victim Blame', So if I move this article to "Victim Blame" would any one be disagree? If not so should I move it? Because there are experts which say "Victim Blame" is a better name. I need an explanation, Thanks, KhabarNegar  Talk 08:07, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Word Choice in "Coining of the Phrase; racism"
I suggest changing "horrible treatment" in the second paragraph to "brutilization" which means the same but cuts down on wordiness. Studentuser1 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:47, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Addition to "Secondary Victimization of Sexual Assault Victims"
I suggest an addition to this heading: "In efforts to discredit alleged sexual assault victims in court, a defense attorney may delve into a accuser’s personal history, a common practice that also has the purposeful effect of making the victim so uncomfortable they choose not to proceed. This attack on character, especially one pointing out promiscuity, makes the argument that women who lead “high risk” lifestyles (promiscuity, drug use), are not real victims of rape." I suggest to place this right before the line "Findings on Rape Myth Acceptance have supported feminist claims that sexism is at the root of female rape victim blaming," and my source for this addition is: Randall, M. "Sexual Assault Law, Credibility, and "Ideal Victims": Consent, Resistance, and Victim Blaming." Canadian Journal of Women and the Law 22.2 (2010): 405-414. Project MUSE. Web. 20 Sep. 2016. Studentuser1 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:50, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Some good sources for an addition about the Ideal Victim
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Studentuser1 (talk • contribs) 17:03, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Randall, M. "Sexual Assault Law, Credibility, and "Ideal Victims": Consent, Resistance, and Victim Blaming." Canadian Journal of Women and the Law 22.2 (2010): 397-434. Project MUSE. Web. 20 Sep. 2016. . ;
 * Estrich, Susan. Real Rape: How the Legal System Victimizes Women Who Say No. Cambridge, MA: Harvard UP, 1987 ;
 * Meyer, Silke. "Still Blaming The Victim Of Intimate Partner Violence? Women’S Narratives Of Victim Desistance And Redemption When Seeking Support." Theoretical Criminology 20.1 (2016): 75-90. Academic Search Complete. Web. 29 Sept. 2016. ;
 * Williams, Sarah. "Left-Right Ideological Differences in Blaming Victims." Political Psychology 5.4 (1984): 573-81. Web.

Some more good sources for an addition on the ideal victim
Ref1 -This article talks about feminist influences on victimology along with speaking about rape law and the how the ideal victim fits into court proceedings in sexual assault cases. I found this source useful because it talked about the ideal victim influences laws pased.

ref2 -This reference is about how the concept of the ideal victim affects canadian judicial proceedings. Despite progressive changes in laws, courts still dig into an accuser's sexual history to discredit a victim.

ref3 - In this reference Gotell describes what the qualifications of risky women and how they are related to the ideal victim concept. I found it useful because it easily laid out the qualifications for someone who is not considered an ideal victim.

ref4 -Christie, a criminology professor talks about his theory of the ideal victim and perpetrator. He gives examples and mentions the concept's application in sexual assault. This source was very useful because it talked about both the ideal victim and perpetrator

ref5 - This source talked about how men were not ideal victims of sexual assault because they were considered not manly enough if they couldn't fight off their attacker. I found this source helpful becase it talked about men as not being ideal victims.

ref6 - This reference speaks to how victims of sexual assault who know their attacker intimately struggle to get their attacker sentenced in court. Since this reference focused on violence between partners it described how intimate partners are not ideal victims or ideal perpetrators

ref7 - In this source Berns talks about ideal victims and perpetrators with a special focus on sexual assault victims and perpetrators. This source was very indepth and easy to read.

ref8 - This source used 20 interviews to discuss how police handled sexual assault cases and also gave suggestions on how to improve sexual assault investigations. I thought this source to be very interesting because it also included suggestions for positive change.

Studentuser1 (talk) 08:53, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Steubenville deletion
The Steubenville section is highly NPOV. Some examples:

·"The news anchor even went so far as to say..."

·"The way CNN presented the rape made it seem like the victim was the one in the wrong and the two boys did not deserve the punishment for their crime."

·"ABC News tried to rationalize the rape..."

·"ABC also focused more on how awful it was that the rape was caught on video..."

I am also unsure of the abillity of any examples section to be truly NPOV. Eldomtom2 (talk) 11:15, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

"Examples" section
As mentioned above, the section on examples of victim blaming contains an excerpt on the Steubenville rape case that is written in an accusatory style rather than an objective one, and links to a slanted opinion piece as a source.

This excerpt appears to have been re-inserted after a prior deletion with no changes to meet NPOV standards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.227.234.236 (talk) 22:47, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
 * The excerpt is written in neutral language. If you see and judgements which are not cited from the source, please report them. If you have references which say "no, there was no victim blaming", bring them here. Otherwise your opinion is not supported by any argument to discuss. Staszek Lem (talk) 01:34, 11 July 2017 (UTC)


 * I reviewed the text and agree tat it is out of place: it is irrelevant to subject because it (and source cited) discusses how the trial ruined the life of "promising students" and does not deal with victim blaming. Staszek Lem (talk) 16:52, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

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Subsection addition in section on "Secondary Victimization of Sexual Assault Victims"
I suggest to add this section on the ideal victim in order to make this section more complete. Ideal Victim An ideal victim is one who is afforded the status of victimhood due to unavoidable circumstances that put the individual at a disadvantage to their attacker. Nils Christie, a Norwegian criminology professor, has been theorizing about the concept of the ideal victim since the 1980s. In his research he gives two examples, one of an old woman who is attacked on her way home from visiting her family and the other of a man who is attacked at a bar by someone he knew. He describes the old woman as an ideal victim because she could not avoid being in the location that she was, she did not know her attacker, and she could not fight off her attacker. The man, however, could have avoided being at a bar, knew his attacker, and should have been able to fight off his attacker being younger and a man. (CHRISTIE) When applying the ideal victim theory to sexual assault victims, often judicial proceedings define an ideal victim as one who resists her attacker and exercises caution in risky situations despite laws reforms to extinguish this false concept. (GOTELL) When victims are not ideal they are at risk for being blamed for their attack because they are not considered real victims of rape. Because they do not fit the criteria being laid out in the rape law, they cannot be considered real victims and thereby their attacker will not be prosecuted. (STRINGER) A victim who is not considered an ideal or real victim is one who leads a high risk lifestyle, partaking in drugs or alcohol, or is perceived as promiscuous. A victim who intimately knows her attacker is also not considered an ideal victim. Examples of sexual assault victims who are not ideal are wives and prostitutes, wives because they intimately know their attacker and prostitutes because they lead high risk lifestyles. The perception is that these behaviors discount the credibility of a sexual assault victim’s claim or that the behaviors and associations create the mistaken assumption of consent. Some of or all of the blame of the assault is then placed on these victims, and so they are not worthy of having their case presented in court. These perceptions persist in court rulings despite a shift in laws favoring affirmative consent- meaning that the participants in a sexual activity give a verbal affirmation rather than a participant doesn’t answer negatively nor does he or she answer positively.(RANDALL) In addition to an ideal victim and in order for a crime to be ideal and therefore able to be judged correctly in court, there must be an ideal perpetrator as well. The ideal attacker does not know their victim and is a completely unrelatable figure- one who is considered sub-human, a morally black individual. An attacker that knows their victim is not considered an ideal attacker, nor is someone who seems morally ordinary. (CHRISTIE) Cases of intimate partner violence are not considered ideal. (RANDALL) The parenthesis are citations which are listed below Randall, M. "Sexual Assault Law, Credibility, and "Ideal Victims": Consent, Resistance, and Victim Blaming." Canadian Journal of Women and the Law 22.2 (2010): 397-434. Project MUSE. Web. 20 Sep. 2016. . Gotell, L. "Rethinking Affirmative Consent in Canadian Sexual Assault Law: Neoliberal Sexual Subjects and Risky Women." Akron Law Review 41.4 (2008): 865-898. Print. Christie, Nils. "The Ideal Victim." From Crime Policy to Victim Policy : Reorienting the Justice System.London : Palgrave Macmillan UK : Palgrave Macmillan. 1986. 17-30. Print. Stringer, R. "Vulnerability after Wounding: Feminism, Rape Law, and the Differend."SubStance, vol. 42 no. 3, 2013, pp. 148-168.Project MUSE, doi:10.1353/sub.2013.0031. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Studentuser1 (talk • contribs) 06:37, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

Studentuser1 (talk) 06:38, 17 October 2016 (UTC)


 * I suggest adding a section entitled, "Secondary victimization of surgical assault victims and medical malpractice." Many of the same tactics used for secondary victimization of sexual assault are used for surgical assault victims. Medical malpractice is a lead cause of death and bodily harm, and blame, gas lighting, minimization, denial, threats, and gag clauses are used to silence victims. Medical Errors Are Third Leading Cause of Death in the U.S. Juliet Sabine (talk) 22:37, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

I suggest finding a place to add the words victims of surgical assault and medical malpractice. The blaming of victims of medical crimes is prevalent. I just noticed this is under the title of sexual assault, so I will look for another place to add it. Juliet Sabine (talk) 22:16, 25 November 2018 (UTC) Juliet Sabine (talk) 22:20, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Suggestion to add surgical assault and medical malpractice victims to the list
I suggest adding surgical assault and medical malpractice victims to this page. Medical errors were cited as being a third lead cause of death in the U.S. in this study, even though this study does not even represent the morbidity and mortality caused in privately owned ambulatory centers or cases that are covered-up by practitioners who change notes, have their fellows cover for them, and so on. Just with statistics listed are enough to realize that there are significant numbers of victims of iatrogenic harm in the U.S. and therefore, this deserves a mention on the victim blaming page. Juliet Sabine (talk) 00:20, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Presumption of guilt article
Any experienced editor here able to save the much-needed Presumption of guilt article from possible deletion? Crawiki (talk) 22:15, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Wording within "Horseshoe theory and nonpolarized views"
Other analysts (<- Who? These "analysts" are referred to too often to leave them unnamed in the article, even supposing this entire paragraph emanates from just one or both sources cited at the end) of victim blaming discourse who neither support most of the phenomena that are described as victim blaming nor most of the measures that are marketed as countermeasures (<- Surely "actions" or "approaches" or "proposals" (for example) could be used instead of double "measures" here) against such (<- Potential subject disagreement. Countermeasures against such what? Presumably "the phenomena that are described as victim blaming" but unclear as it could also reasonably refer to "measures" and change the meaning of the sentence) point at the existence of other ways of discovering and punishing crimes with victims besides the victim reporting the crime. Not only are there police patrols and possible eyewitnesses (<- Is this "the analysts'" assertion? That there are simply police patrols and possible eyewitnesses that generally exist in our world? If so, that attribution should be made clear here, not beginning in the following clause) but these analysts also argue that neighbors can overhear and report crimes that take place within the house such as domestic violence. For that reason (<- Comma) along with the possibility of many witnesses turning up over time if the crime is ongoing long term (<- "Ongoing" and "long-term" refer to two different states of being; they are not synonyms as used here. Many crimes could be both, one or the other, or neither, and it's not clear to which of those three possibilities is being referred here) as domestic abuse is generally said to be (<- First off, comma. Second, said by whom? This is not something I would consider to be "generally" agreed upon, at least not in the absence of any reference whatsoever to validate such a claim) which would make some of the witnesses likely to be considered believable (<- "Some" of the witnesses are "likely" to be "considered" "believable." I fail to see why a claim that requires so many qualifiers is necessary or adds anything of substance to the section), analysts of this camp of thought (<- 332,000 Google results for this phrasing vs 43,700,000 for "school of thought") argue that the main problem that prevent '''(<- Is it "problems" or "prevents?" Because multiple problems and preventions are referred to forthcoming) crimes from being successfully prosecuted is offender profiling that disbelieve the capacity and/or probability of many criminals to commit the crime, rather than disbelief or blaming of victim reports (<- This is worded in a beyond confusing way. "Disbelieve" = "doubts?" Also, are we still talking about domestic abuse or just crime that results in victims in general?). These analysts cite international comparisons (<- Conducted by whom? Not the aforementioned analysts, it sounds like. This should be a separate citation) that show that the percentage of male on female cases in the statistics of successfully prosecuted domestic violence is not higher in countries that apply gender feminist theories about patriarchal structures (<- 1: What are "gender feminist theories" in this context? Maybe needs a referral, but unclear. 2: What does this have to do with the previous sentence at all? 3: How is this paragraph still "nonpolarized" at this point as the section title claims?) than in countries that apply supposedly (<- This is a loaded, judgmental, completely unnecessary, and perhaps even inappropriate word that evinces some degree of bias at its most generous reading. If it is a quote from the study, then it should be in quotes and attributed) antifeminist evolutionary psychology (<- “Psychological," but also this phrase needs a substantial definition or supporting evidence or reference that "antifeminist evolutionary psychological profiling" even exists) profiling of sex differences in aggressiveness, impulse control and empathy, (<- This sentence needs to stop here) arguing that the criminal justice system prioritizing cases in which they believe the suspect most likely to be guilty makes evolutionary psychology at least as responsible as gender feminism for leaving domestic violence cases with female offenders undiscovered no matter if the victim is male or female. (<- This 102-word sentence lacks justification for both its length and incoherence. I will try to summarize the argument as I understand it: "Evolutionary psychology" is "at least as responsible" as "gender feminism" for causing specifically female-perpetrated, gender indiscriminate domestic violence to go purposely unnoticed because unspecified international comparisons found that the number (or rate? unclear as only "percentages in the statistics" are referred to) of reported male-on-female domestic violence is not significantly higher in countries that "apply gender feminist theories" about "patriarchal structures" (just simply towards the existence of such structures in general) compared to countries that apply what may or may not be "antifeminist evolutionary psychology profiling." Again, this entire paragraph presents one of the more needlessly convoluted and perhaps even more polarizing claims I've read absent any specific evidence from the study or studies, which is inherently contrary to the section title) The analysts (<- "The analysts," even this far into the paragraph, presents a valid reading the meaning of which is that the following point represents the consensus among those who analyze victim blaming. "These analysts," which was used just one lengthy sentence ago - or even more preferably, their names - seems more appropriate)''' argue that many problems that are often attributed to victim blaming are instead due to offender profiling, and suggest randomized investigations instead of psychological profiling of suspected offenders. (<- This, in my opinion, absolutely must be placed much higher up. I think the first or second sentence of this paragraph) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cursecode (talk • contribs) 02:32, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Section "Scientific studies of victim blaming" not meeting quality standards
Appears that this section is written with ideological bias. Poor phrasing. Only referring to one study. I suggest to amend or remove. 143.178.200.85 (talk) 15:48, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Studentuser1.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 12:21, 17 January 2022 (UTC)