Talk:Victor LaMer

LaMer or La Mer?
There's disagreement between User:PamD and myself regarding the spelling of the subject's last name. There seem to be plenty of WP:RS for either version, including a PNAS biography that spells his name both ways. Suggestions or additional comments are welcome! -- bender235 (talk) 19:19, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Survey

 * In my opinion we should adopt the version commonly used in library catalogues and by the subject himself, as for instance here in his doctoral thesis. -- bender235 (talk) 19:19, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Note:, I moved part of your comment from the RFC statement to here just to ensure strict compliance with WP:RFCNEUTRAL. Hope that's okay! Obviously feel free to revert.-- Jerome Frank Disciple 21:19, 8 June 2023 (UTC)


 * LaMer: We should use the spelling used in the sources in our article: the NAS biographical memoir (which uses "La Mer" in its title but "LaMer" consistently in its text), the APS membership list, the chair named for him, and the American National Biography article. I suggest that library systems, and perhaps publishers, have struggled to handle this "Camel case" surname, with the capital in the middle. Given that both forms of his name seem to have been used, I've added the other spelling to the lead, and created redirects from every variation, but the article title should be the one our sources support. Pam  D  22:14, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The NAS membership list spells his name 'La Mer'. Also, the spelling of 'La Mer' is not just in the library catalog entry of his doctoral thesis, but also in the published PNAS version of it. You'd have to assume that this was his preferred spelling. --bender235 (talk) 05:09, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
 * @Bender235 Not unless we saw a copy of his typescript as submitted: again, we can't know whether publication systems couldn't cope with the "camel case" and added the space. Pam  D  16:30, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I was able to find a copy of his 1921 doctoral thesis, and it appears you're right after all. He spells his name LaMer. --bender235 (talk) 20:48, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * @Bender235 Thanks for that, and well done for finding it! Given that the uni where he taught for 40 years, and the other one where they've got a chair in his name, and his professional society in naming an award for him, all used "LaMer", I'd have continued arguing against any proposal to move him back to "La Mer", but it's great to see that thesis. Interesting how many systems, over the years, have mangled his name, perhaps because they think a capital letter ought always to be preceded by a space! Pam  D  20:58, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * - His first peer-reviewed journal article (1918) was La Mer. His death certificate from the State Department (1966) is La Mer. And Columbia University et al; the overwhelming majority of contemporary sources spelled his name La Mer. In my opinion, this is no different than Mayor La Guardia having his name "mangled" when they named an airport after him — LaGuardia Airport. Other people who have had their names bastardized by sources — John La Farge, Robert M. La Follette, Henri La Fontaine, Lynda La Plante, Eriq La Salle. Isaidnoway (talk)  06:13, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

A Few Collections Small selection from textbooks Books authored by La Mer Foreign language sources A few newspapers Small selection of peer-reviewed journals
 * La Mer, Victor K. (Victor Kuhn), 1895-1966 at Columbia University Libraries
 * La Mer, Victor K at University of Kansas Libraries
 * La Mer, Victor K at Stanford University Libraries
 * La Mer, Victor K at University of Missouri Libraries
 * La Mer, Victor K at University of Michigan Libraries
 * La Mer, VK at PubMed
 * La Mer, Victor K. (Victor Kuhn), 1895- at National Library of Australia
 * La Mer, Victor K. (Victor Kuhn), 1895-1966 at Library of Congress
 * La mer, Victor K at Royal Library, Denmark
 * La Mer, Victor K at Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America
 * La Mer, Victor K at American Chemical Society
 * La Mer, Victor K at The SAO/NASA Astrophysics Data System
 * La Mer, Victor K at JSTOR
 * La Mer, Victor K at Science (journal)
 * Victor K La Mer at WorldCat
 * Victor K La Mer at Google Scholar
 * La Mer, Victor K at HathiTrust


 * LaMer. Assuming there aren't two people with either of these names, then we have these two google searches (1, 2) with a 100:1 preference for "LaMer" over "La Mer". This is a web search, and a better test involving a higher percentage of reliable sources would be in books or scholar, but this result is likely indicative. Mathglot (talk) 22:20, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
 * As a post-script: this RFC fails the required preparation step of WP:RFCBEFORE, as there is no apparent discussion of the question at all—let alone extensive, deadlocked discussion requiring a formal Rfc process to resolve. Please review WP:RFC first, next time you are considering opening one. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 16:09, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
 * @Mathglot There was a bit of WP:BRD - bender moved the page, I objected, asked them to move it back, then found I could do so myself so did so - discussion on their talk page at User_talk:Bender235, perhaps not quite "extensive", but certainly a discussion. Pam  D  16:22, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Aha. That isn't the right venue of course, exactly for this reason, but I know that it does happen. Thanks for the good faith kind word for your interlocutor wrt this issue. Mathglot (talk) 19:32, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
 * La Mer — my preference is La Mer.
 * Google Scholar search results —about 177 results for Victor La Mer —and— about 131 results for Victor LaMer
 * —New York Times obit 1966, Dr. Victor Kuhn La Mer
 * —Fulbright U.S. Scholar Program Victor La Mer
 * —AAAS Victor K. La Mer at Science (journal)
 * —Memoriam for Thomas Hakon Gronwall at American Mathematical Society, 1932, (Professor Victor K. La Mer, p. 776)
 * —Detlev Wulf Bronk Bio at Encyclopedia.com (Victor La Mer)
 * —Advisors & Collaborators at American Institute of Physics, La Mer, Victor K. (Victor Kuhn), 1895-1966, Advisor
 * —Charles Albert Browne Papers at Library of Congress, La Mer, Victor K., 1933-1934
 * —Columbia University in World War II collection, 1933-1975 La Mer, Victor K., 1942-1944
 * —Wikipedia article Nanoengineering 1950: Victor La Mer and Robert Dinegar
 * —Charles Albert Browne Papers at Library of Congress, La Mer, Victor K., 1933-1934
 * —Columbia University in World War II collection, 1933-1975 La Mer, Victor K., 1942-1944
 * —Wikipedia article Nanoengineering 1950: Victor La Mer and Robert Dinegar
 * —Charles Albert Browne Papers at Library of Congress, La Mer, Victor K., 1933-1934
 * —Columbia University in World War II collection, 1933-1975 La Mer, Victor K., 1942-1944
 * —Wikipedia article Nanoengineering 1950: Victor La Mer and Robert Dinegar
 * —Charles Albert Browne Papers at Library of Congress, La Mer, Victor K., 1933-1934
 * —Columbia University in World War II collection, 1933-1975 La Mer, Victor K., 1942-1944
 * —Wikipedia article Nanoengineering 1950: Victor La Mer and Robert Dinegar
 * —Charles Albert Browne Papers at Library of Congress, La Mer, Victor K., 1933-1934
 * —Columbia University in World War II collection, 1933-1975 La Mer, Victor K., 1942-1944
 * —Wikipedia article Nanoengineering 1950: Victor La Mer and Robert Dinegar
 * —Charles Albert Browne Papers at Library of Congress, La Mer, Victor K., 1933-1934
 * —Columbia University in World War II collection, 1933-1975 La Mer, Victor K., 1942-1944
 * —Wikipedia article Nanoengineering 1950: Victor La Mer and Robert Dinegar
 * —Charles Albert Browne Papers at Library of Congress, La Mer, Victor K., 1933-1934
 * —Columbia University in World War II collection, 1933-1975 La Mer, Victor K., 1942-1944
 * —Wikipedia article Nanoengineering 1950: Victor La Mer and Robert Dinegar
 * —Charles Albert Browne Papers at Library of Congress, La Mer, Victor K., 1933-1934
 * —Columbia University in World War II collection, 1933-1975 La Mer, Victor K., 1942-1944
 * —Wikipedia article Nanoengineering 1950: Victor La Mer and Robert Dinegar
 * —Charles Albert Browne Papers at Library of Congress, La Mer, Victor K., 1933-1934
 * —Columbia University in World War II collection, 1933-1975 La Mer, Victor K., 1942-1944
 * —Wikipedia article Nanoengineering 1950: Victor La Mer and Robert Dinegar
 * —Wikipedia article Nanoengineering 1950: Victor La Mer and Robert Dinegar


 * Select search results from Google Books and Google Newspaper Archives (early years)
 * —, 1914, Victor La Mer
 * — 1922, Fathers name, Joseph Secondule La Mer
 * —, 1922, La Mer, Victor K.
 * —, 1926, Victor La Mer
 * —The Chemistry Leaflet, 1935, Victor Le Mar
 * — 1961, Victor La Mer of Columbia
 * — 1961, Victor La Mer of Columbia
 * — 1961, Victor La Mer of Columbia

Clicking on the links provided above by Google search
 * In my opinion, his signature looks like there is a distinct space between La and Mer, Signature under his pic, 2nd page
 * Note: I'm seeing different results from Mathglot's two Google searches, I see a preference for La Mer over LaMer, by a huge margin. There is also a significant preference in Google searches for "La Mer, Victor K." over "LaMer, Victor K." Isaidnoway (talk)  09:51, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Truly? When I do them, I get: #1 = 5,130 and #2 = 48, two orders of magnitude difference in favor of "LaMer". Can you please state your exact results from those two searches when you try them? Mathglot (talk) 23:08, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment What a vast amount of energy we've collectively spent over a man whose name has been spelled in two different ways. Two of his departments believed he was "LaMer": Stanford and Columbia, but in the end it doesn't matter as long as we have both versions in the lead (we do now), and redirects from all combinations of his name with both spellings (we do, now I've added a few). I moved the article back to the spelling used in all the sources (the NAS biographical memoir, although it uses "La Mer" in the title, uses "LaMer" consistently in the text). I just suggest that if anyone moves it back to "La Mer" they please add a source or two which supports this spelling. Pam  D  11:50, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * And I stick with my suggestion that both libraries and publishers may have been sometimes incapable of correctly handling a "CamelCase" name so that the space has been added by them for consistency with other names.
 * If anyone wants to go further - are US birth or death registration records available online? (I've already looked at Find-a-grave hoping to find a photo of his gravestone, without success!) Pam  D  11:53, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah no, forget birth records etc. It's how he's referred to in reliable English language sources that counts. And the items which mention him individually by name (as opposed to catalogues and publications), including the chair named for him, seem, to me, to favour "LaMer". Pam  D  12:44, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I think publishing companies and libraries are completely capable of handling a camelcase, and since this RfC is really about the title of the article, WP:TITLE, doesn't stipulate the sources must be in the article. Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject. There is often more than one appropriate title for an article. In that case, editors choose the best title by consensus... The 1914 cite, and this 1915 cite below (both are earliest known spelling), and the Library of Congress, convince me it is spelled La Mer.
 * (Bachelor of Arts, Victor Kuhn La Mer) Isaidnoway (talk) 14:26, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment Googling "professor victor k. lamer" and "professor victor k. la mer" is interesting. These are hits which are talking about the man, rather than listing his publications. The hit numbers are very similar (68 reducing on page 2 of the hits to 18 for LaMer, 84 reducing to 12 for La Mer). His colleagues and successors, in reliable English language sources, used both versions. That said, I'm unimpressed at the idea that we need no sources in an article which justify the choice of title: astonishing. But the article title should probably include the "K.", as the hits for the same searches without it are 5 and 4 respectively. Pam  D  08:40, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * 1 — About 5,160 results (0.39 seconds)
 * 2 — About 74,100 results (0.54 seconds)
 * "La Mer, Victor K." — About 830 results (0.36 seconds)
 * "LaMer, Victor K." — About 694 results (0.39 seconds)

From Google Scholar
 * "Victor K. La Mer" — About 497 results (0.06 sec)
 * "Victor K. LaMer" —  About 478 results (0.05 sec)

From Ancestry.com (via The Wikipedia Library) in the Pennsylvania, U.S., County Marriage Records, 1845-1963; Name: Victor Kuhn La Mer, Gender: Male, Race: White, Age: 23, Birth Date:	1895, Birth Place: Leavenworth Kansas, Marriage Date: 31 Jul 1918, Marriage Place:	Gettysburg, Adams, Pennsylvania, USA, Father: Joseph S. La Mer, Mother: Anna Pauline Kuhn La Mer, Spouse: Ethel Agatha Mc Greevy, Certificate Number 	9072, Source Citation, Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission; Harrisburg, Pennsylvania; Pennsylvania County Marriages, 1852-1973; County: Adams; Year Range: 1917 - 1920; Roll Number: 549789 Yearbook Date 	1915 School 	University of Kansas School Location 	Lawrence, Kansas, USA
 * "La Mer, Victor K." — About 217 results (0.08 sec)
 * "LaMer, Victor K." — About 110 results (0.07 sec)
 * Victor Kuhn La Mer
 * Name 	Victor Kuhn La MER
 * (Note: all the official government documents I viewed, marriage, passport, military, etc. showed his signature as La Mer)

From NewspaperARCHIVE.com (via The Wikipedia Library) Refined to New York only ProQuest Historical Newspapers: The New York Times 1923- (via The Wikipedia Library)
 * 107 records for Victor K La Mer from 1919 - 1983 (US Newspapers)
 * 156 records for Victor K Lamer from 1918 - 1995 (US Newspapers)
 * 0 records for Victor K Lamer from 1918 - 1995, published in New York, United States Of America
 * 24 records for Victor K La Mer from 1918 - 1995, published in New York, United States Of America
 * 16 results, for Victor K. La Mer
 * 19 results, for Victor K. LaMer

Google Newspaper Archives Highlights from his 1966 obit in NYT (Victor K. La Mer)
 * 16 results for "Victor K. La Mer"
 * 14 results for "Victor K. LaMer"
 * World War II - invented for the Army and Navy an aerosol-generator fog spray machine that killed malaria bearing mosquitoes with DDT within a half mile radius.
 * received a Presidential Certificate of Merit for his contributions to defense by research on aerosols.
 * chairman of the Mayor's Advisory Committee on Scientific Rainmaking in NYC in 1950.
 * 1960 - reported on the practicability of spreading blankets of chemicals over reservoirs and lakes in order to prevent evaporation
 * 1954 - reported a new filtration process that promised to increase production of uranium by tapping uranium bearing waste materials
 * 1915 - graduated from the University of Kansas
 * 1921 - received a Ph.D. degree from Columbia
 * World War I - served as a first lieutenant in the Army Sanitary Corps.
 * 1919 - joined the Columbia faculty, was professor from 1935 to 1961
 * After that, was senior researcher in mineral technology at Columbia School of Mines
 * World War II - member of National Defense Research Council. Consultant to the Atomic Energy Commission
 * 1948 - elected president of New York Academy of Sciences
 * 1953 - Fulbright professor at the University of Copenhagen
 * 1959 - Fulbright professor in Australia
 * Honorary professor at San Marcus University in Lima, Peru
 * Edited the Journal of Colloid Science from 1946 to 1965.  Isaidnoway (talk) 06:01, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but I believe that all of the tallies from your Google searches above are invalid, due to Google search query rewrite rules which will absorb what they consider equivalent or variant spellings into the original query you gave. To exclude these, you have to double-quote your search, and use the unary minus operator to exclude the variant you don't want. For example, contrary to your claim that web search on "Victor La Mer" gives 74,100 results, it actually gives 49 results when you phrase the query correctly by using the unary operator to exclude the unwanted variant. You haven't shown your work, so I can't see exactly what you have done, but this is very likely the source of all of the search hit tallies you have listed above, all of which are subject to this same problem. Secondly, the "hit count" listed at the top cannot be relied upon, and you have to scroll to the bottom (if you have requested 100 results by default) or you have to "Next" through the continuation pages, and then you will find the more accurate count. For example, if you use the AND operator to search  you will get a page that estimates 71,500 results in the hit tally at the top, but if you scroll down/"Next" through, you will get the following buttnote at the end: "In order to show you the most relevant results, we have omitted some entries very similar to the 40 already displayed. If you like, you can repeat the search with the omitted results included." I'm afraid that all of your searches will have to be redone if you wish to support the claim you are making, because your numbers are wildly off. Please show your work this time. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 18:30, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I should perhaps add that I totally don't care which way this comes out, and probably way too much digital ink has been spilled on it already. I do care about search engine usage, though, and to the extent that decisions at discussions are based on search results, I think it's important to ensure they are used correctly, and interpreted correctly. This is no mean feat, as both parts of that are more complicated than most casual search users believe, and in particular, the "search hits tally" at the top doesn't at all mean what people think it does; maybe grist for a future discussion in a different venue, perhaps. Mathglot (talk) 22:36, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * As far as I'm concerned, contemporary sources, peer-reviewed journals (when available, academic and peer-reviewed publications...and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources), and government documents indicate to me that La Mer is the preferred spelling. In my opinion, this is no different than Mayor La Guardia having his name bastardized as well when they named an airport after him — LaGuardia Airport. Other people who have had their names bastardized by sources — John La Farge, Robert M. La Follette, Henri La Fontaine, Lynda La Plante, Eriq La Salle.<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:black"> Isaidnoway </b><b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:red">(talk)</b>  03:14, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Small selection from textbooks

Foreign language sources A few newspapers

Small selection


 * La Mer, based on above analysis it looks like it's the slightly more commonly used variant. As long as both are mentioned in the lede, then I'm not that fussed either way.--Ortizesp (talk) 06:19, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment If as much time had been spent on writing his article as on arguing about his name, we'd have a much better encyclopedia. The original stub was one of many created by later-blocked sockpuppet Novonium, and it wasn't a lot better by last week when we started discussing his name. I've now expanded it somewhat from our various sources (including this which strongly supports the "LaMer" spelling), but it's still pretty light on his actual chemistry achievements. Pam  D  07:48, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Out of curiosity,, what brought him to your attention? When you moved him it showed on my watchlist because I'd done some tidying up as part of the cleanup of Novonium articles a long time back and he was still on my (ridiculously large) watchlist. Pam  D  07:51, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * It was just a coincidence. I'm spending most of my time adding authority control information on Wikidata, and that's how I notice we seem to spell his name differently than any library catalogue. --bender235 (talk) 16:32, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * There are multiple sources that also strongly support the La Mer spelling. And according to WP:RS, When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources. His peer-reviewed publications and textbook sources overwhelmingly support La Mer. Additionally, there is no deadline on improving articles, speaking for myself, I like to research and gather information and work in my sandbox first (due to my impaired vision), before I add content to articles. In other words, I'm an old man, and I will get around to it.<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:black"> Isaidnoway </b><b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:red">(talk)</b> 16:12, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

BRD re thesis source
Please revert your change to my reference: I don't want to edit war. The catalog is my source for the information about his thesis title. I have consulted the catalog. I have not consulted the thesis. Therefore the catalog is the appropriate reference. Pam D  22:11, 27 June 2023 (UTC)


 * And I've upgraded the reference to the thesis, which can be consulted directly. There's no need to reference OCLC directly. The OCLC link is still there, with the addition of the LCCN and Open Library links. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 22:14, 27 June 2023 (UTC)