Talk:Victor Neuburg (poet)/Archive 1

Untitled
Mention should be made of Runia Tharp, Neuburg's companion of later life and described by Fuller with distaste as 'The Lady'. Xxanthippe (talk) 03:43, 3 August 2009 (UTC).

Section added from answers.com
Someone just added a considerable amount of stuff from answers.com. What's the copyright status on this? --Rodneyorpheus (talk) 20:26, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I've integrated the stuff into the main article now & edited it considerably, hopefully there are no rights issues now. --Rodneyorpheus (talk) 20:54, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Not Jewish?
Not understanding the revert edit by Rodneyorpheus. Can someone explain this and this. I don't understand. I'm reading: "Neuburg was born in Islington on May 6, 1883 into a Jewish family of Viennese extraction. When he was an infant, his father returned to Austria, so his mother raised him with the help of doting aunts." The other source reads as follows: "The two first met in the spring of 1908. Neuburg was twenty-five, seven years Crowley's junior. He had been raised in an upper middle-class Jewish family in London." Please explain how Neuburg would not be Jewish. Bus stop (talk) 18:17, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Of course he was of Jewish descent but not a practising Jew. It's too trivial a matter for the lede. Put it in the main text. Xxanthippe (talk) 02:21, 25 September 2009 (UTC).
 * It was not I who put the reference to jewishness in the lede; it was there already. Bus stop (talk) 11:22, 25 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The issue is how you define "Jewish" - whether it's a religion one accepts or a genetic heritage one is born with. Although Neuburg may have been born of a Jewish family, he certainly did not accept Judaism as his religious belief, therefore it is less ambiguous to state that he was of Jewish descent than to simply say he was Jewish. --Rodneyorpheus (talk) 07:36, 26 September 2009 (UTC).
 * I quite agree. Why don't you make the alteration? Xxanthippe (talk) 08:08, 26 September 2009 (UTC).


 * I did, but it got overwritten (twice). Will now go revert it again. Ho hum.


 * Your distinctions based apparently on whether Neuburg was a practicing Jew or a non practicing Jew are original research. You should be aware that a Jew can be nonobservant. That status does not revoke his "Jewishness," and the sources confirm this; they do not deny this. Genetics is at least as unreliable an indicator of Jewishness, or Jewish identity. Anyone can convert to Judaism. Does their DNA convert too? Please build the article upon sources. Bus stop (talk) 00:24, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Here is yet another allusion to Neuburg's Jewishness, found here:
 * "Crowley's attitude was clearly not that of a disinterested teacher. It also represented part of a complex and ritualized playing out of elements of his personal relationship with Neuburg. He chastised the Probationer, but in terms that related to the man. Crowley afterwards expressed the view that there was a "fundamental moral deficiency in his character," and "a strain of racial congenital cowardice too deeply seated for eradication." At the time he continually harped upon his student's supposed "racial," that is, Jewish, traits, and Neuburg found the personal abuse almost intolerable. He went through periods of rebellion, but in awe of Crowley, bound to him emotionally, and cognizant of his vow, Neuburg always repented of his outbursts. The racial slurs and personal insults continued. Meanwhile, however, Neuburg began to have some magical success. Prolonged periods of yoga and meditation began to facilitate changed states of consciousness, and these in turn gave way to vivid experiences on the astral planes."
 * The argument is made by Xxanthippe, above, that this is "...too trivial a matter..." Are Neuburg's "Jewish" traits portrayed as being "trivial" in my quote above? Neuburg was a Jew, as reliable sources attest. No source presents him as anything other than simply Jewish. Bus stop (talk) 01:22, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The current definitive biography of Neuburg by Fuller establishes two facts beyond doubt: a) Neuburg was of Jewish descent - his mother was Janette Jacobs, daughter of Moses Jacobs and his wife Rebecca, formerly Levy, his father was Carl Neuburg of Vienna. Although the marriage was solemnized with Jewish rites the father returned to Vienna shortly after Neuburg's birth and nothing further was heard of him. b) Neuburg was never a practicing Jew. Neuburg's mother became a Christian Scientist; Neuburg rejected all organized religion and contributed poems to atheist magazines from 1903. As is well known, he later became an occultist. How anybody could consider this to be original research beats me. The only part of any significance that Neuburg's Jewish background played in his recorded life was the vilification of him by Crowley. Therefore there is no need to burden the lede with this minor matter, it can go in the main text. Xxanthippe (talk) 06:28, 30 September 2009 (UTC).
 * I absolutely agree with Xxanthippe --Rodneyorpheus (talk) 23:18, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

(unindent) Without a source you are establishing facts; Fuller is not. That is original research. Please tell me where Fuller says that Neuburg was "of Jewish descent." I think the terminology "of Jewish descent" might be more applicable if Neuburg were born to people who had Jewishness in their lineage but who were no longer Jewish themselves. But the sources I've provided say that Neuburg was born into a Jewish family. Your edit summaries are saying such things as, "…seems more accurate." I think what matters is not how it "seems" (to you) but rather what reliable sources say. A reliable source says that the subject of the biography was "…raised in an upper middle-class Jewish family in London." Does Fuller say that Neuburg was "of Jewish descent?" Please quote that, or as near as you can find to that, in Fuller's biography. Judging by your above comments you may not be aware how common Jewish nonobservance is. I don't think a Jew becomes referred to as being "of Jewish descent" due to "atheism," "occultism," or if one's parents later become "Christian Scientists." Such can be noted in the article if reliably sourced (the article is still short) and not given undue weight, but such things don't necessarily overturn and rule out other reliably sourced material. Please tell me where Fuller establishes that Neuburg is "of Jewish descent," or where Fuller uses some related locution to that. Bus stop (talk) 05:34, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Please see Fuller (1965) page 103+ . Xxanthippe (talk) 22:49, 1 October 2009 (UTC).


 * It is the phrase "of Jewish descent" that is being objected to. Please quote the sentence in which Fuller uses the phrase "of Jewish descent" in description of Neuburg. That particular phrase is inconsistent with the other sources which I have cited. If Fuller or some other reliable source is not describing him as being "of Jewish descent" then the use of that phrase is original research, especially in light of the availability of other reliable sources that assert unequivocally that he was born into a Jewish family. If you wish to describe that family as nonobservant or some such locution, then endeavor to find a source to support language for that. But coining your own language, in light of reliable sources at variance with that language, constitutes original research, in my opinion.


 * Neuburg's noteworthiness is not unrelated to issues of personal identity. These include sexual identity and religious identity. It matters how we describe his religion of birth. I did not put description of Jewishness in the intro; it was there already (for a long time) before I began to work on the article. Xxanthippe and/or Rodneyorpheus have removed it only after I attempted to correct what I perceived as an incorrect locution. In point of fact I do believe the correct place for noting his religion of birth is in the intro. This is because of its relevance to what would seem to me to be core noteworthiness factors involving this man. (This is not meant to detract from his noteworthiness as a writer.)


 * A suggestion that I offer your point of view is that you use more, rather than fewer words to convey the points that you obviously feel strongly need to be displayed in this biography. For instance you may find a reliable source describing Neuburg as being a nonobservant Jew, or some such locution. But of course any language that you may choose to use in this regard should be reliably sourced. Bus stop (talk) 22:20, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * This argument is getting rather silly now. There are MULTIPLE sources to verify that Neuburg was not affiliated with the Jewish religion. There are multiple sources (not least Neuburg's own diaries, which I have personally held in my own hands) where Neuburg talks at length and in depth about his affiliation with Aleister Crowley and the religion of Thelema. There are multiple sources that say CLEARLY that he was of Jewish descent - even the one you just quoted! You seem to have some ridiculous bee in your bonnet about proving that he was of the Jewish faith, despite every source and every other editor on this page disagreeing with you. You continue to push your agenda by editing the article repeatedly, despite every other editor disagreeing with you and changing it back. You have not shown any good faith or desire to achieve a consensus. Frankly this is starting to feel like vandalism now.


 * You state: "I think the terminology "of Jewish descent" might be more applicable if Neuburg were born to people who had Jewishness in their lineage but who were no longer Jewish themselves". Fine. Sources (quoted within the article itself) clearly show that his father was absent and his mother was not of the Jewish faith. Problem solved. Of Jewish descent it is then. What do other editors think? I would like to achieve a final consensus on this. --Rodneyorpheus (talk) 17:12, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * We are of one mind in this matter. Xxanthippe (talk) 22:49, 1 October 2009 (UTC).


 * I have no agenda whatsoever. But Wikipedia requires sources. Please provide a citation for your reference to Neuburg's Jewishness. Please show a source for Neuburg being "of Jewish descent." In the absence of such a source I don't think that particular word construction should be used in the article. Bus stop (talk) 23:04, 1 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Xxanthippe, Your edit summary here indicates "citation provided in talk." Could you expand on that? What is the context in which you encounter the phrase "of Jewish descent?" Please quote a sentence, here on the Talk page, so we can see the phrase "of Jewish descent" in use. Context sometimes matters. Bus stop (talk) 01:38, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Requested citation added, and from someone who knew him intimately. Can we please now stop this increasingly tiresome discussion? --Rodneyorpheus (talk) 19:02, 5 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The phrase "…of Jewish descent…" is not sourced. I've replaced it with sourced language. Bus stop (talk) 23:06, 5 October 2009 (UTC)