Talk:Victoria Junior College

Copy-edit
Hey all. I've been working on copy-editing wikipedia articles these few weeks, and I'll be startig a copy-edit of this one. I'll make improvements as best as I can and add the relevant tags. If you have any questions, just yell here or at my talk page :) And yes, I'm a Victorian. 02S15. Back in the days when the auditorium was not air-con-ed. Actually, it was supposed to happen in our year before the A-levels but it got postponed... But I digress. -Samy85 (talk) 03:40, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I only managed to do a partial copy-edit... needs a lot more citations and some portions are self-contradictory, like whether VJ students cram Japanese-style. Some portions were also ridiculous, like top students applying to VJ because of the sexy uniforms! (but IF it is true, cite your source). okie that's all! will come back another time to continue! --Samy85 (talk) 04:34, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I've changed my username from Samy85 to. Feel free to say hi at my talk page! -Samuel Tan (talk) 16:05, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

2005-2006
Yes, I'm a current victorian.

It is very hard to talk about the school culture since there are no websites or evidences to support this view, and no study has been done comparing the different school cultures around Singapore.

--supremebull 10:46, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Victorians, please contribute.

Yes I agree with you that the phrases lack a neutral point of view.. what is dynamic, fun and challenging? what facts are there to support this view?

eraser78;talk 12:12, May 04, 2005 (UTC)

"To the wikipedian who nominated this page to be checked for its neutrality,

Please state the reason"

Well, the entire article reads like an advertisement for the college, but these phrases in particular trouble me: "Co-curricular Activities (CCA) in VJC are dynamic, challenging and fun!", "VJC students would not shirk from cheering on for their school during competitions and school events or proclaiming with pride their attachment and love for the college. It is this spirit that constantly drives the college to greater heights and that bonds Victorians past, present and future." Someone edited some of the POV out of the School Spirit section, but it's still problematic. Also, please sign your posts with ~. android↔talk 23:07, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

This page still needs some serious cleanup. I know next to nothing about VJC aside from what I can learn from Google, but no one else seems keen to remove the promotional/bubbly language in the article. I'm going to be bold here and attempt it myself. android↔talk 22:01, May 11, 2005 (UTC)

Alright, there's the first pass at a rewrite. I left the Courses section alone, because I can't make sense of the abbreviations and codes. A few minor points: If someone who actually attends/attended the school would have a go at the Courses section to make it more readable to those unfamiliar with the Singapore education system, that would be great. android↔talk 23:33, May 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * Perhaps a word other than faculties ought to be used. In common American English usage, faculty refers to an institution's body of instructors, and faculties is generally used to refer to a person's mental capabilities. I'm not sure what the corresponding word would be here. Perhaps faculties is used in British English in this manner, but I'm not aware of it.
 * I removed the sections that consisted solely of external links.
 * I un-wikilinked the notable alumna that doesn't have an article, and removed "Joe Augustine," because I can't figure out who that refers to.
 * The "Just recently" in the bit about the choir needs to be given a more specific timeframe. I also removed some verbiage later in that paragraph about "clinching gold medals" – perhaps I am missing something here, but wouldn't a first-place finish imply medals were won?
 * The "top four junior colleges" bit in the intro and the list of big-name universities that "some alumni" go on to attend (which I removed) need to be sourced.

Thank you for your continued interest in vjc and dedication to making wikipedia better, it is very much appreciated. -Blackrabbit

I am a former student of VJC in Singapore. Joe Augustine is a Deejay in Singapore. The word faculty is not used as an institution's body of instructors in Junior Colleges. It means the subject combinations the students are studying. For example, Science Faculty, Arts Faculty and Commerce Faculty.

--Eraser78 06:21, 16 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, that is the correct meaning in British English. The American usage - they appear to use it to mean "all the teaching staff added together" - seems quite weird to me. Alarics (talk) 20:52, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

To android, i think the article is not really correct but i think its better to let someone who has more background knowledge on singapore / junior colleges edit the article.

--Eraser78 08:11, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Aquila 2006 champions?
This is fairly interesting, the year hasn't passed and "In 2006, Aquila was the overall champion house."? StrawHatLuffy 16:37, 16 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it's worded this way because it would be stupid to put it in the present tense (as many articles do), only having to switch it to past tense once the year is over, creating unnecessary work. As an aside, it should be flashed wildly somewhere that Aquila is pronounced ah-KWEE-la, and not as many victorians pronounce it: ah-KEE-la. —Dudboi 00:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

VJC 6-year programme
http://www.asiaone.com/News/Education/Story/A1Story20090327-131603.html

Referring to the above article, I am wondering why the principal of VJC has so much say in this matter. Principals come and go every few years. But the alumni will always be alumni. What is the VAC/VEC stand on this matter? Shouldn't the VAC/VEC have jurisdiction over the 2 schools? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.156.9.238 (talk) 20:23, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

SPAM
An editor with a clear Conflict of Interest is turning this article into a spam-vehicle. It would be nice when that editor come up with reliable (no social media), independent (not the schoolwebsite or related websites), prior published sources (preferrably but necessarily in English). The Banner talk 16:34, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Clarification
That editor is trying very hard now to figure out what sort of sources constitute reliable and independent sources now, so do help her along and together we can all improve the article bit by bit! :) The old version of the article has a lot of information, but a lot of it lacks sources / sounds promotional (I swear it's not intentional). I will be relooking the currently omitted statements and searching for sources for those statements that didn't sound promotional. I've just done so for some bits, mostly in the "History" segment e.g. about Theatre Studies, French LEP, choir's win at Cardigan Eisteddfod etc. However, I'm unable to find neutral sources for some things e.g. East Zone S&T Centre. Would appreciate help in looking for sources! Skyelyrics (talk) 03:20, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Details of Edits, 25/12
Merry Christmas y'all. Added back the achievements of VJ choir, this time with backing from the website of the competitions' organiser (Interkultur). As the world ranking is likely to change over time, rendering the information inaccurate, I referenced a cached version of the world rankings instead of the live version. Also, the url of the pdf downloadable results were used, so here are the websites from which they were retrieved: Fixed some broken links and added back the trivia about David Beckham. Does anyone know if it's possible to search Straits Times archives without a subscription? I remember being able to do it with a school subscription. It would make the job much easier if its articles could be searched (for example, there's bound to be some mention of the principal succession in 2006 when Mr Chan took over, but right now, all I have is the press release).
 * http://www.interkultur.com/events/world-choir-games/bremen-2004/
 * http://www.interkultur.com/events/world-choir-games/xiamen-2006/#c1256
 * http://www.interkultur.com/results/

Will be adding back the sports CCA info/achievements next, because the CCA list is too skewed to performing arts right now. Sources for those (redsports & straits times?) shouldn't be too hard to find, I hope. I copied-and-pasted quite heavily from the old versions of this article so please feel free to edit the flow of the text if it's weird now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skyelyrics (talk • contribs) 06:03, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

For Straits Times and other newspaper archives before 1989, you can go to NewspaperSG to access them, and for those after 1989, you can access them at the Multimedia Stations at public libraries. R22-3877 (talk) 09:58, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Sorry I wasn't clear, I meant to ask if it's possible to access the archives on the straits times website itself :) I've already used the NLB newspaper archives as sources but some of those articles require viewing at Multimedia Stations, so I wasn't sure whether they could be cited at all. Personally I've decided they're okay though, by comparing it to using a published book as a source - some readers may not have access to the book, but it shouldn't be a reason to disallow it as a source? Skyelyrics (talk) 07:07, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

You can't do so on the Straits Times website, and for the articles that require viewing at Multimedia Stations, they can be cited. For those, I usually take down the info from the article at the library and then fill in the citation (since the article name, date and publisher can be accessed at home) and add the info at home. R22-3877 (talk)

I see! That's a good idea. Don't you have to pay for using the Multimedia Stations though? Skyelyrics (talk) 08:11, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

You don't have to to access NewspaperSG. R22-3877 (talk) 14:05, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Oh okay, will try that next time! Skyelyrics (talk) 08:16, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

To the Anonymous Editor
Appreciate the anonymous Wiki user for your attempts to make the page neutral, but could you please list your edits on the Talk page as well, not just edit summaries? Especially when they are debatable edits - for example, instead of quietly removing all the CCAs save for the "Sports" and "Choir" sections, why not list your concerns here? What is wrong with the individual sections, how can they be improved?

I find some of your edits to be contentious, maybe another reader can offer his/her opinion.

You cited the reason for removal as "Removing unsourced and self published sources and promotional content on CCAs."
 * Firstly, some of the sources you removed were not self-published. Victoria Chorale earning gold medals at the World Choir Games - that was referenced to Interkultur's published list of award recipients. Dance's achievements at the World Dance Olympiad was also referenced to the International Dance Organisation
 * Secondly, if you find the sources to be a problem, you can just add the "citation needed" template message, or ask for better sources here. Why remove the content entirely?
 * Thirdly, I agree some of the content sounds promotional. (To clarify, I was not the original author for most of it, I merely copied & pasted from old versions of the article.) Anyway, if the content sounds promotional, why not rewrite it so that it sounds more neutral? Or ask someone to rewrite it?

Also, some of your edits rendered the content inaccurate or confusing.
 * VJC is not the only Singapore JC to offer Theatre Studies. ACJC & TPJC offer TSD as well. Your edit removed the qualifier "until 2005". Speaking of ACJC, you might want to look at their Wiki page, which is also full of promotional content.
 * Removing of titles in the principals section - okay sure, but the section ended up with so many mentions of "Chan" with nothing to clarify whether it's Mr Chan or Mrs Chan.


 * Hi "anon editor" here. I've just noticed a lot of badly-sourced articles under Wikiproject Singapore. My concern with the CCA section is that some were not reported by independent news sources. You have listed the organiser's website and the International Dance Organisation which are self-published websites. Such refs from organisers themselves and umbrella organisations to promote the arts do not imply notability. Of course, if you can add in international or local newscoverage do feel free to add in.
 * With regards to your questioning of why I didn't use the "citation needed" template, my opinion is that Wikipedia is not a forum for copypasta content that are not noteworthy. IMO sometimes you need to burn the weed for the article to regrow. If it can be properly sourced it will definitely be added again. I will however, take your advice and try to add my edit reasonings to the talk page in future. I haven't had the time to look into ACJ as yet, my own JC's page is in shambles but I don't think I should edit it, COI issues and all.
 * As for the edits that may have rendered the content inaccurate, I apologise for messing that up. I have woefully inadequate knowledge of Arts and Theatre Studies options in Singapore. Do add sources to indicate that ACJ and TPJ offers them as well, or remove the phrase "only junior college" entirely since the phrase no longer has meaning if they are no longer the only school offering the course.


 * As for the principals section, I changed it per the MOS; quick comparisons with US/UK prep school articles shows that majority of these school don't even have that section. If these head of educational instituitions are not noteworthy enough to warrant their own Wikipedia articles, they shouldn't even be listed individually in the first place, but I recognise that some unsourced information exist on Wikipedia for the sake of completing lists and tables. Lee Phui Mun was a fairly well-known principal even to non-VJ people and quoted in the media fairly frequently, the rest probably less so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.161.196.133 (talk) 10:27, 27 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks for clarifying! Sorry if I sounded mad, you have to understand that this is like, what, my 10th time having my edits undone almost entirely, which can be rather irritating when there's no discussion going on - like, it's very quick & easy for someone to delete but it took a lot of time for me to look for all those sources/information.
 * Okay, so I probably still don't get what sources can and can't be used (besides news sources). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Identifying_and_using_self-published_works#Using_self-published_sources => Wikipedia is quite vague here too, saying that self-published sources can be acceptable though not preferred, and that it may be used when the statement concerns the source itself? Can the competition website be used since the statement is talking about the source? But alright, I'll see if I can find news coverage (thank God for NewspaperSG).
 * Alright, I see your POV. I suppose it was a bad idea on my part to refer to other JCs' pages as a form of reference as to what can be considered noteworthy. Yes please do add your reasonings though, it's only fair to the editor whose edits you reversed. Which JC is yours? Maybe I can help take a look since you are looking into VJ's. Haha.
 * Yep, I've edited the phrase just now, but haven't added sources regarding ACJ & TPJ. Bit lazy at the moment. I think "only junior college" is noteworthy enough to stay though? 1989-2005 is quite a long time to be the only school offering it, plus it's related to why there are so many alumni that went on to become actors & actresses.
 * Yeah, for me it's just weird to not have the list when all the other Singapore school pages have it. I know that's not a good reasoning, but just feels weird (also, I believe it's there because Wiki is the fastest way to find out who the ex-principals are, especially in a place like Singapore where principals rotate around and the same person was principal of a few different, prominent schools before.) Skyelyrics (talk) 11:35, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Explainer: Self-published sources would - in this case - be sources published by Skyelyrics. A source published by the school itself would be a non-independent source and fail WP:RS. If you can not proof some info with independent sources, better do not add it. The Banner talk 12:53, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, I understand that part. What we were discussing is the use of the International Dance Organisation website - is that acceptable as a source? Skyelyrics (talk) 08:16, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Removing list of CCAs
Wikipedia is not the place for school trivia. You cannot list every CCA of every school here — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.161.196.136 (talk) 10:52, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Title/gender principal
Usually, any title or gender is omitted from a section like that about the principals. In this case, I think it is worthwhile to add them. The reason is in the fact that Wikipedia is a worldwide encyclopaedia. As I am just a European, I fail to recognize female and male first names. So it would be in the best interest of the readers to add those titles. But once is enough. The Banner talk 10:54, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Good point. Added back the titles for the paragraph text, but left them out in the table. Skyelyrics (talk) 08:20, 28 December 2017 (UTC)