Talk:Victoria Silvstedt

Natural?
natural bust? Saccerzd 19:52, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

natural bust? Saccerzd 19:52, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Whether it/they is/are or not, my expert opinion is that she is not the 36C stated in the article. Her cup size looks more like a D or E. Anyone have any first hand knowledge? -- EdX20 (talk) 20:21, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * first hand knowledge? I should be so lucky.. giggidygooo! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.73.93.89 (talk) 10:16, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

No way are those breasts real. We'll find out when she's 70 and they still stick out upright. 79.103.187.216 (talk) 22:10, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Hoax (Swedish National Ski Team Member ?)
I've removed the following mention "Silvstedt became a world-class member of the Swedish National Ski Team, ranking as high as fourth among her Olympic teammates in the Super-Giant Slalom, but a shoulder injury ended her skiing career at 16" = hoax. This seems to be an anecdote absolutely unfounded in fact (cf. Official story of Ski Team Sweden) --92.138.235.203 (talk) 21:36, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

The removed mention about the false allegation "Silvstedt became a world-class member of the Swedish National Ski Team" has been restaured. So please let's make a final decision of this sensitive information : please contact Svenska Skidförbundet (Swedish Ski Association) www.skidor.com)--92.138.235.203 (talk) 13:12, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

(Still for the anecdote, what shoulders have to do with skiing? a shoulder operation wouldn’t hinder a pro “skiing career” that much. just another evidence of the unfounded fact (a very concerning attitude consisting of bombing the web with false information in order to build urban legend ! "Encyclopedic content must be verifiable")--92.138.235.203 (talk) 13:19, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

This false allegation has been three time restaured. Could wikipedia admin make a final statement of this point. Thanks--92.138.235.203 (talk) 13:33, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) Talk:Victoria Silvstedt

There has been a typo (the Swedish National Ski Team vs. a Swedish national ski team), which one can fix. But you have no right to delete all the relevant information that has appropriate references attached to it. It seems you did it on purpose, being just malicious, as you claimed that the Wikipedia article named Silvstedt as "a ski champion" although that's a lie. There was never a mention that she was "a ski champion". Silvstedt was a member of a Swedish national ski team (not the Swedish National Ski Team), and during a competion, she ranked as high as fourth among her FUTURE Olympian teammates. She wasn't a member of the National Ski Team. So, the only problem was the definite article vs. the indefinite article, not the fact that she was a profilic skiier in her teens and scored well in different competitions.

Wodel (talk) 13:45, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Dear Wodel,

As I understand from your wikipedia contributions report, You seem to be a great fan and efficient lobbyist of Miss Silvstedt. But you should not confuse people magazin/fan club and encyclopedic information. This brillant lady with other unquestionable skills and references, has unfortunately never been a potential olympian candidate. Please be kind enough to stop this misinformation campaign. Hoping wikipedia administrators will clarify the point with the swedish ski federation --92.138.235.203 (talk) 14:01, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Stop lying, and deleting relevant information that has appropriate references.

You are obviously misreading, or someting. You cannot delete relevant information that has appropriate references attached to it, and then just say "That's a hoax". You need to have appropriate references to back your opinion. Also, you seem to miss the point. Saying that "Silvstedt was a member of a Swedish national ski team" is not the same as "Silvstedt was a member of the Swedish National Ski Team" because of the indefinite article.

And you have understood wrong, I am not a great fan nor an efficient lobbyist of Silvstedt. But I do take contributing on Wikipedia seriously, and I always do my best. Also, I have never wrote (nor has anyone else) that Silvstedt has been "a potential olympian candidate". Moreover, I have never wrote (nor has anyone else) that Silvstedt has been "a ski champion". Those are your words only. So, please, stop lying and spreading that sort of information.

"Be kind enough to stop this misinformation campaign", what do you mean? Are you seriously claiming that Silvstetd has never been a member of a Swedish national ski team (not the same thing as the Swedish National Ski Team! There are numerous national ski teams around Sweden)? Or that she did not rank fourth in a random competition among other teenage girls, who years later became professional athletes, competing even in the Olympics? Maybe you should do your homework a bit better. Do more research within the Ski Association of Sweden.

Silvstedt has never been a memeber of THE SWEDISH NATIONAL SKI TEAM - There's no argument on that. Silvstedt has been a memeber of one of the numerous national ski teams in Sweden in her teens - A fact. Silvstedt has ranked fourth among her teenage teammates in Super-Giant Slalom in an amateur competion in her teens - A fact. Silvestd's former teammates (some of them) have become Olympian athletes - A fact.

Based on all that, one can say that "Silvsted was a member of a Swedish national ski team, ranking as high as forth among her future Olympian teammates in Super-Giant Slalom.

Wodel (talk) 14:42, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, it would help if some of those links given for references worked... Tabercil (talk) 14:50, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Details

Silvstedt came 4th in Super-Giant Slalom during the 1989 Junior Championship in Sweden. One can check that out with the Ski Association of Sweden via phone or email. Also, until one gets the response from the Association, one can check these links verifying the information as well:

http://www.expressen.se/noje/1.245137/ab-silvstedts-miljardindustri http://www.aftonbladet.se/wendela/article301114.ab http://www.expressen.se/noje/1.490447/systrarna-silvstedt

It seems that this other person, deleting relevant information with appropriate references without providing additional references backing his/her opinion that Silvstedt's background as a profilic skiier is a hoax, has some personal problmens with Silvstedt. Pure vandalism.

Wodel (talk) 15:17, 29 December 2010 (UTC)


 * According to your articles that you provided, the paragraph exaggerated several things. We know she was a member of a junior team, (not clear that it was a national youth/junior team if they exist). We know she placed 4th at a youth competition. Don't know exactly which one though. Saying she placed 4th among her future Olympic teammates is over the top, especially when she was never on the Olympic team. I suggest you provide links for all references in the article that are available online so that other people can easily and independently verify these claims. Morbidthoughts (talk) 18:14, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

ABOUT THE RELABILTY OF THIS GOSSIP :

1. Your sources are not reliable : a self assertion (interview) for a people magazine cannot be considered as a reference. The reference should be robust enough to be checked with sport federation

2. "There are numerous national ski teams around Sweden" NO ! There is only ONE national team and several local teams. Maybe you are not familiar enough with professional ski ? But please chack further and you will learn that this lady has neither been member of the national ski team nor winning any remarkable race (absolutely nothing in the sport files)

3. wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a platform for show business people promtion. There are plenty of forum alloing to share gossip. Sport and Olympic Games are too serious to be tarnished with that kind of unfounded matter.

Now, I submit the dispute to arbitration by a third party (i.e. wikipedia administrator) and also raise the topic to the Svenska Skidförbundet.

I think we will both have to disclose our identity out of this forum to make the discussion clear. There are some egal precedent about promotion some false sport reference--92.138.235.203 (talk) 15:54, 29 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Ahem, I am an admin. As it stands, I can't check the references given to see just what was originally said... Tabercil (talk) 16:20, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Hi Level Sport is something too important to be become a usurpated way to support low-end showbiz gossip. web and information media are overwhelmed with dull show business people news. Please avoid wikipedia to become another medium promoting that kind of tasteless misinformation. --92.138.235.203 (talk) 16:31, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Are there national youth teams in skiing like there are in soccer/football? Morbidthoughts (talk) 18:16, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

"Silvstedt placed fourth at a youth championship in the giant slalom won by Pernilla Wiberg" could we find an actual evidence for this assertion ? (actually the only source is based on an interview led by a showbiz "people magazine". A serious doubt about building some false allegation (as these kind of media are often familiar with) still exists.

It's very easy to get a trace of past race (even minor races). For instance, as an amateur skier, I can still get details of some very minor races (and the related list of winners). If that kind of assertion is founded, we should really get that evidence, unless wikipedia would simply act as an amplifier of show business rumors.--86.218.174.73 (talk) 09:46, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * No. Based on wikipedia's policy on verifiability, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth; that is, whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true." Wobel has given two independent sources published on the two largest Swedish newspaper sites that assert she placed 4th in some youth competition. You have provided no evidence these sources relied on some interview without checking their facts. If you wish to continue to dispute this assertion based on your hunches, please do so at the biographies of living people noticeboard rather than edit warring over this issue. Morbidthoughts (talk) 13:55, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Based on that principle (e.g. "verifiability, not truth") and considering showbiz gossip magazine as "reliable sources", wikipedia will finally validate any repeated rumor, whatever it is false... I really think we have to go a little further in our investigation before according the status of encyclpedic information to content--86.218.174.73 (talk) 14:22, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Exploring all the files of swedish ski race I have not found any trace of Silvstedt record of achievements. Every wikipedian can easily check that. It's reinforce the opinion about a pure gossip building a false sport fame--86.218.174.73 (talk) 14:29, 30 December 2010 (UTC) Also trying to reach Pernilla Wilberg (the Ski Champion mentioned ("Silvstedt placed fourth at a youth championship in the giant slalom won by Pernilla Wiberg.[9][10").
 * Again, raise your objections at the Biographies of Living People Noticeboard. Do not edit war over something based on your hunches. Are the files publicly available so that "every wikipedian can easily check that"? Morbidthoughts (talk) 15:25, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Maybe I'm not familiar enough with wikipedia tools (e.g. Biographies of Living People Noticeboard), but never do I confuse hunches with facts ! The only fact or "no fact" I object here is an hypothetic ski race that never happened. As I explained, I'm now waiting for an formal and written evidence from a great ski champion : Pernilla Wilberg herself. As I mentioned, victoria silvedt neither attand the race wich has been mentioned (silvedt fourth and winner wilberg), nor was selected as olympian teammate. I know showbiz people need sometimes crispy news to publish or claim during interviews. They could even invent some of them. Some gossip magazines do not check the objectivity of those information. Worse, they add sometimes some additional exageration to these false news (here is an obvious example - not hunches - parlonstv.com present silvedt as a olympic swedish racer -even silvedt never was part of this team, another french showbiz gossip magazine (Voici) assume the race in question was a downhill race (still another reality !). Should we consider these information as "Sources" just because they are publshed ? Shouldn't we -as wikipedia contributor- try to making some arbitration/moderation ? I clearly understand the principle of "verifiability, not truth" which is well adapted to purposes like for instance too complex physical science controversy (e.g. the polemic between Eric Drexler and the Nobel Richard Smalley - 2001), but here the facts are simple and easily checkable : NO RACE IN 1989 winned by the Swedish Champion Pernilla Wilberg and mentionning Silvedt at the fourth place ! So simple are the facts...--86.218.174.73 (talk) 21:33, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You can not compare the celebrity/culture/media sections of the two largest Swedish newspapers, Expressen and Aftonbladet, to the gossip magazines of France. It's like comparing the culture/celebrity/media section of Le Monde to the National Enquirer or TMZ. Like I said, present your dispute to the noticeboard so that other editors can review your arguments and see if they agree with you. I also suggest you create an account for yourself on wikipedia because you are using more than one ip address. Morbidthoughts (talk) 22:12, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the details about Aftonbladet and Expressen. Of course there is no comparaison with Pure Gossip Magazine like Voici for instance. I do not want to argue about whether general newspaper can also publish some gossip or not. That is not the question here. Just tell me how can I provide You with clear evidence Miss Silvstedt has neither attend the race mentionned (won by Pernilla Wiberg, Victoria Silvstedt self proclaiming to be fouth !?) nor being selected (or preselected ?) to be member of the Sweden Olympic Ski Team. I should be emailed with database evidence directly from the sweden ski team. So far I've already contacted some other european sport organisation and their database don not have any trace from ski past of Victoria Silvstedt. Should this skier have a significant sport past, we would get some evidence in those bases !--86.218.174.73 (talk) 23:22, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * First, the newspapers do not claim she is a national team member and her wikipedia article no longer includes this so ignore that matter. Second, post a notice on the noticeboard asking what you have to do to discredit the newspapers. You may have to forward the response emails from the swedish junior ski team (if one exist) and whatever relevant sport organization. Just remember the possibility that the junior competition or championship may not be sanctioned or official by whatever. Morbidthoughts (talk) 06:55, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Swedish team for the Junior Ski Championships has also be requested. I'm not yet familiar with the noticeboard, I tried to post something but It seems it was not efficient. Try again.--86.218.174.73 (talk) 09:47, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment on 31 Dec 2010

It has been reported numerous times in various publications in Sweden and abroad since the early 1990s that Silvstedt was a profilic alpine skier in her teens, placing fourth in the giant slalom during the 1989 Youth Championship.

Silvstedt has been one of the most famous celebrities in Sweden (and one of the most famous Swedes in the world), getting absurd amount of media attention in Sweden and abroad as well. It seems simply unbelievable that no one had noticed that "Hey! She hasn't been an alpine skier and she hasn't competed at the 1989 Youth Championship AT ALL!" No one in the media, no one of the former fellow athletes, no one.

If Silvstetd hadn't been an alpine skier, placing fourth in the competition and scoring well otherwise as well, it would have been reported years ago. The international media writes negatively on her on a regular basis, and has been doing it all these years. The reporters would have noticed the lie for sure (via tips from the public, if not by their own research).

Wodel (talk) 12:08, 31 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Nice try Wodel ! but I prefer wait for official news about these facts. Just a few days or weeks. So far the early return are still negative on her skier past. But I'm waitng for a full justification on the topic. More over, If it would so clear about her skier track records, why is it impossible to provide us with the name of therace in question ?--86.218.174.73 (talk) 13:14, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

I've got some information about reference 8 : actually Victoria Silvstedt father is working in the finance/banking industry. No relevant information about his ski coach or trainer ("ski captain" mention). This ski team captain assertion is based on an interview given by Victoria Silvstedt. No other fact or reference can be provided.

Still no information so far from the race (e.g. the current controversy) attended by both Silvtedt (4th) and Wiberg (1st).

I've got the contact of the 2 journalists who interviewed Silvtedt and wrote the source article 9 and 10. We now have to check if the assertion is a self proclaimed reference (during those interviews) or actual and evident facts.

Happy new Year to all of You --92.138.115.83 (talk) 14:03, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Here maybe is the key of this controversial discussion : The information reported by Miss Silvstedt was a very anodine comment she made during an interview : "When I started downhill skiing and competing my goal was to be an Olympic skier. I trained very hard and started skied when I was five, six years old". This assertion does not mean any actual sport fame. It's just like lots of children dreaming to be astronaut or superhroes ! She wished to be, very different than saying she was ! Maybe the expected clarification we are waiting for from the reference 9 and 10 would show some overinterpretation of this wish or dream. I will let you informed--92.138.115.83 (talk) 14:31, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Another analysis coming from a ski expert : "in 1989, Pernilla Wiberg (born 1970) competed on world championship. A that time, Silvstedt (born 1974) could already compete as junior". In such a scenario, both ladies could not attend the some race. Without consisting as a direct and formal answer to the controversy, that point plaids against the objectivity of the discussed assertion.--92.138.115.83 (talk) 14:54, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * It's still possible that they were in the same race. According to Wiberg's wikipedia article, she was still competing in the juniors in 1988 and did not make her world cup debut until 1990. I have also posted your concerns on the noticeboard. Morbidthoughts (talk) 16:04, 3 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi, from the BLPN. Her father was the captain of a local ski team, yes?, not disputed?, she was sking since the age of five - its not such a big stretch to believe she was fourth in a youth competion, it is weakly cited and likely comes from the subject, so you could attribute it to her or remove it, leaving Off2riorob (talk) 17:52, 3 January 2011 (UTC)


 * - Silvstedt's father was the captain of a local ski team, and she started alpine skiing at the age of five.  However, at the age of 16 a shoulder accident in the middle of a skiing competition ended her involvement.

This discussion seems to be very partial and controversed. May I give my fresh new opinion here : no facts only interviews (self proclaimed news?) = no mention in the wikipedia article.--79.174.228.10 (talk) 17:30, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Biographies of Living Persons
Per BLP, please don't post allegations & claims, particularly negative ones unless you have a Reliable source. Nil Einne 17:43, 9 August 2007 (UTC)


 * You and I may not like the reference source, but the fact the pictures appeared with an unsubstantiated allegation which we can't mention, but that she and her husband did get the page removed from Sky News is substantiated - and since, she's split up with Wragge. I reinserted with ref. There was some discussion on this point a while ago, and it was agreed to keep the ref but remove the allegations - which I note you purposefully removed. You may think you were removing those discussions for the right reasons, but they are on the talk page and didn't break the rules as you suggested in your edit summary - plus, each time that piece of gossip turns up, we have a solid point by which to substantiate our text as to why it says what it does. Rgds, - Trident13 00:07, 16 September 2007 (UTC)


 * There is no need nor room for bullshitting in the article. Furthermore, I even see the word "gossip" in the above note here. There is Absolutely No Place in the Wikipedia for gossip of any sort - Get That Through You Cranium. This is not a Tabloid - and if you wish to write a tabloid, feel free to do so in lots of the do-it-yourself tabloids on the Internet. Lots of the allegations that you bullshitters wish to put forward, even if true, are not worth mentioning, and especially in an encyclopedia.74.249.93.54 (talk) 06:33, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Victoria does not earn millions a year...
Show several links in support of that by a verifiable third party. She only claims to but that is more vanity than truth. 108.46.134.60 (talk) 18:58, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm tired of this slow edit war. It wouldn't surprise me if she does earn millions a year, however this being a WP:BLP, we need to reference the information from a WP:RS. My Finnish extends to using Google Translate on the ksml reference—which yields: "The trendy fashion lady nets you a few million euros annually mallintöillään, television contracts and the various products in public relations works". Tabloids are not generally reliable sources, and I think it is pushing the bounds to accept one that isn't written in English. Is there another source supporting her earnings? Oh, and to the anonymous editor: please drop the conspiracy theories that she is somehow editing her own page. At WP we Assume Good Faith and stick to the issues. GFHandel &#9836; 20:58, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I have an overwhelming suspicion that this editor is the same one who just got blocked from editing the Kara Young article. Your best recourse might be to request semi protection for this page.Fasttimes68 (talk) 21:27, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I forgot to add, KSML is a broadsheet newspaper, not a tabloid. And RS refs don't have to be in English per WP:NOENG. Fasttimes68 (talk) 21:34, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I didn't say it had to be in English, but since it isn't, and since no one here has admitted to knowing Finnish, the best I can generate from the source is the sentence: "Silvstedt earns millions of euros every year via television contracts, product promotion, and her public relations work". I propose using that sentence instead of the one in contention. GFHandel &#9836; 21:52, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Hello, User:Fasttimes68 has contacted me through Translators_available to provide assistance in a translation from Finnish.

The article in question is published by Keskisuomalainen, a smallish regional newspaper from Jyväskylä. The article is a short writeup on Silvstedt and her career, apparently based on an interview with her during a visit to Helsinki in 2008. Translation of the relevant passage: "The trendy fashion lady earns annually several million euros through modeling, TV contracts and PR work for different products."

If this statement is disputed, I would suggest additional sources to support the short writeup by Keskisuomalainen. The journalistic integrity of the regional newspapers is not always that scrutinized, and this statement is most definitely based either on what she said in an interview, or on an undisclosed third-party source. On the other hand, I personally think a model who has appeared on Playboy could easily be making such money if they haven't blown their career. Cheers, hydrox (talk) 01:02, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Hello everybody! Keskisuomalainen is the oldest Finnish-language and one of the most respected broadsheet newspapers in Finland. In the newspaper article in question, as one can see above, the income information is the newspaper's statement, not hers. And therefore, I wrote "According to the Finnish broadsheet newspaper Keskisuomalainen" in the Wikipedia article as that sentence is very much true. Wodel (talk) 18:04, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * After reading the translation by hydrox, I agree with your assesment and think your edit make sense. Fasttimes68 (talk) 18:47, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

GFHandel asked me to take a look at this. My first take is to support his view that a claim like this needs a better source. He has asked me to semi-protect this article. I would rather do that if there was an agreement to do so here in article talk. I would only do so if there was a risk of a continuing edit war at the article, while consensus was being reached here. Is that the situation? --John (talk) 20:02, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree. Protect the article to prevent socking while consensus is reached here.  I would also suggest protecting the talk page to auto confirmed editors to prevent socking in here while consensus is discussed. Fasttimes68 (talk) 20:09, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I have semi-protected the article for two weeks while a consensus is arrived at here. I will leave this talk page for now as IPs may have valid opinions to present here. As always I will reserve the right to change my mind. I hope that a strong consensus can be arrived at about whether to include the earnings material. Are there any other bones of contention? Would a RfC be any help? --John (talk) 20:20, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

The article does not claim as a fact that Victoria Silvstedt's earnings are millions per year. The article states very clearly that "According to the Finnish broadsheet newspaper...", leaving it up to readers to decide whether to believe it or not. In my opinion, considering Silvstedt's versatile work history (a beauty pageant contestant - a high fashion model - a glamour model - an actress - a television presenter - a designer - a singer - a promoter - an author), a mention of her possible earnings "According to the Finnish broadsheet newspaper..." is reasonable. It seems that everyone but one, who kept deleting the information again and again, agrees. Wodel (talk) 09:20, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Well said. FWIW i belive this editor is the same one who is being considered for a community ban over at ANI.  Fasttimes68 (talk) 13:00, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Income material
The edits are downright passionate. Only she could be this upset over simple non-verified facts being removed. Or verified facts that are unflattering being added. Someone should look into it. 108.46.134.60 (talk) 20:28, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

I won't engage myself in this matter more than this: I'm not her nor am I upset. The income information is from a respected broadsheet newspaper, which does not quote her saying that her income is millions per year. It's the newspaper's statement. One doesn't have to believe in the statement, but one cannot go and delete the information just because one doesn't believe it. Wodel (talk) 18:04, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

The statement is a "claim" and therefore not a proven fact. Find links about her from reliable third party sources that prove or confirm people's net worth and yearly earnings, then add it again. 108.54.225.22 (talk) 13:17, 23 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I think a claim like this would need better sourcing than the Finnish one to be included, but I will go with whatever consensus is arrived at here. --John (talk) 20:23, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I happened to write the Keskisuomalainen article -- that regional Finnish paper would have no special knowledge of Victoria Silvstedt's income and if that's the only source saying it, I would not include it.--Milowent • hasspoken 17:21, 6 April 2012 (UTC)


 * In my opinion, considering her versatile work history (a beauty pageant contestant - a high fashion model - a glamour model - an actress - a television presenter - a designer - a singer - a promoter - an author), a mention of her possible earnings "According to the Finnish broadsheet newspaper..." is reasonable, leaving it up to readers to decide how to react to the information. I don't know, if you indeed wrote the original newspaper article or not, or why would you write that she earns millions per year without having knowledge of her income, but the newspaper article does include a mention of her income, and I don't see a problem with having that mention featured in the Wikipedia article as well. But I do think that the phrasing is important, and should be kept as "According to the Finnish broadhseet newspaper..." as that phrase is very much a fact based on the published article also available on the Internet. Wodel (talk) 18:38, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I think you misunderstood. He started the wiki article, not the RS article. 19:53, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Income Material part 2
After the last round on this stunningly boring tidbit (see above) consensus says that the quote regarding the income material is ok. But does it belong in the article in the first place? Fasttimes68 (talk) 18:59, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

External links modified
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