Talk:Video game modding/Archive 1

Question
Instead of listing Modifications here, should there be a Category:Modifications, with sub-categories like Category:Quake Modifications, Category:Half-Life Modifications, and so forth? --NeuronExMachina 02:54, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Something like that is already at work. look at: [Category:Computer_and_video_games] and Fan-made Modifications.. --Horst_F_JENS 12:43, 2004 Jul 16 (UTC)

Fox Legal Action
In the Fox'ing section, it says: "Some strictly non-commercial mods appear to be tolerated." What exactly does this mean? Does this mean only mods not based on movie franchises are safe from corporate legal action? Kendricken 06:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

No, it means mods that aren't created for profit(Sold). Gelston 09:14, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Mod (computer gaming)?
Should this article be moved to mod (computer gaming) (or something similar)? Many of the links to this article use mod and I more frequently hear them called "mods". Modification would then become a disambiguation page with links to mod (gaming) and other special meanings of "modification" (such as modifications (genetics) and grammatical modifier). --Mrwojo 23:06, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Yes, it should definitely be moved. Fredrik | talk 02:13, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * 7 years later it should still be moved. Modding of video games is usually called rom hacking while modding refers to games for the PC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.44.54.249 (talk) 19:05, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Change REDIRECT of Modder
Modder currently redirects to Mod_(computer_gaming). Since there are other kinds of modders working in other fields than computer gaming, Modder should redirect to Modding. - 200.141.231.146 16:35, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Agree and done --W++ 11:12, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Team Fortress
Shame this article doesn't mention one of the first major Quake mods that was really really popular. :( CheapAlert 20:37, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I just read this whole page and was extremely disappointed with just the single reference to Quake. There hasn't been a mod scene like Quake's until UT2k4 and it's mod contests. Team Fortress is the most memorable, but there was also Air Quake, Quake Rally, Mega TF. Most mods after the first Quake are rehashed Quake mods. It's really a shame to have WoW on here, and no Quake or other games that had unique moding systems. Take Starsiege Tribes for instance. Not really known for it's mods because they were so seamless. Nearly all were server side mods (required no downloads). All of the game's scripts were editable in a C++ like language, and you could even do some coding from the in game console. No tools other than notepad required. I might just contribute to this article, it really needs some gamer "historians". If WoW's damned macros are on here, then Quake's proxy's (are item respawn timers cheating controversy) should be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.122.41.10 (talk) 05:14, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

controversial uses of modding
There should be a section discussing how mods are sometimes made which do rather controversial things, like add nudity/sexual content (I've heard there are a number of Sims mods like this), since this phenomenon has gotten modding/video games alot of bad press recently. An espesially obvious and prominent example would be the hot coffee mod for GTA:SA - although it should be noted that that was unusual in that it unlocked content already in the game rather than adding it. 207.69.139.134

History
I notice there isn't a History section in this article. These are my memories of gradual acceptance of modding, in id Software games - but I'm not adding these to the article yet because I don't have any references:


 * Wolfenstein 3D
 * The map format for the game was reverse engineered, which gave rise to map editing. Only existing maps could be changed - so the modding meant editing original game files.
 * Doom (and Doom II etc)
 * Embraced "custom maps" - the spec for Doom maps was opened, allowing maps to be created and stored as their own file. The maps could only be played by using a command line parameter to specify the file name of the map.  Sprites could also be changed in the same way, by specifying an alternate WAD file on the command line.
 * Actual gameplay rules could be changed with a tool called 'dehacked' - could change amount of damage done by certain weapons, or the speed of a rocket, for example.
 * Quake (1)
 * Introduced the console, which allowed game parameters to be changed mid-game, also the loading of custom maps.
 * Embraced actual "gameplay modding" by using a language (QuakeC) to program gameplay actions and released the code to the public.
 * Introduced the format of alternate "mod" directories under the main game directory (or was this Quake 2??)

As I said, I'm not 100% accurate on this, any suggestions welcomed!

-- Chuq 08:01, 6 May 2006 (UTC)


 * You may want to include Tribes in there as well, as it was (as far as I know) the first game to allow for significant gameplay modification on a multiplayer level without requring client downloads, among other things. But more to the point, the list looks fairly good and to my knowledge is accurate. -- Y&#124;yukichigai 22:00, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Robzed (talk) 10:18, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

There should definitely be a history section. Take, for instance the following. Surely these are mods?

Jet Set Willy Mods: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_Set_Willy#Third-party_modifications (There were lots of new rooms and editors).

If you look at JetSet downloads, there are *lots* of unofficial mods in distribution, even today. (Even JSW2 could be considered an 'official' mod http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_Set_Willy_II ... although I guess it was more like a rewrite than a strict mod)

Manic Miner similarly got rooms edited (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manic_Miner)

What about derivatives of Hack and then Nethack? Are these mods? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hack_(video_game) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetHack

What about the mods to Colossal Cave Adventure??? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Cave_Adventure#Continued_development

Total Conversion definition
The current definition of Total Conversion includes, "a mod of an existing game that replaces 100% of the artistic assets in the original game," but then goes on to define Counter-Strike as a TC. According to that definition Counter-Strike is not a TC, as it reuses a number of texture files. (e.g. the faces of some of the hostages are just the related scientist textures from Half-Life) The definition needs to be modified, as I think we can all agree that Counter-Strike is definitely a TC, and perhaps the most commercially successful one out there at that. -- Y&#124;yukichigai 21:55, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. I changed it accordingly.--Katana314 20:10, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

"TC" was used to differentiate mods like Team Fortress from early mods that consisted of mostly just new weapons. "TC" has more to do with changing the gameplay than anything else. Don't have to be an artist to make a TC, as early Doom & Quake moders proved. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.122.41.10 (talk) 05:23, 29 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I wonder if there is a source which states what the first TC was? I think it might have been the Aliens TC for Doom. Marasmusine 08:16, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Morrowind mods - GIANTS
DragoonWraith 05:21, 3 November 2006 (UTC): Despite being exceptionally popular, GIANTS is the result of serious copyright infringement that got Pumaman (the author) quite angry letters from Bethesda and Bioware, as he ripped models and animations from Neverwinter Nights for the mod. As there are hundreds of far better mods for Morrowind than GIANTS, I respectfully request that GIANTS be taken down from this page, and if possible, from humanity's collective memory. It's a shame against the Morrowind modding community.

I can come up with a better list of Morrowind mods if you like, or you could just link to a couple of mod download sites and MW Mythic Mods, in particular Telesphoros's list, widely (universally?) considered to be the most comprehensive list (which is not to say it has everything, just more than anyone else) of quality mods on the 'Net.

Dragoon X Omega II
As another example of a Total conversion should be Dragoon X Omega 2 to describe the practicality of this game: As quoted from the website:

"This hack is the product of over three years of work. The extent of the changes eclipses anything done in a ROM hack released to date. Final Fantasy was basically used as an "engine" to create a new NES RPG upon, so even those intimately familiar with Final Fantasy will be charting totally unfamiliar waters. The musical score is entirely new, as are the graphics, the levels, the dialogue, etc. This is truly a new RPG experience for the venerable NES."

DXO2 is in other words a total conversion of the original Final Fantasy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 211.29.1.102 (talk) 09:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC).

Too many
Many sections of this article need cleaning up. Under WP:NOT I suggest listing only one or two example mods for each game, with a seperate listified article for those games with many well-established mods (as already exists with Battlefield etc). I will go ahead and do this over the next few days. Marasmusine 07:41, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, where there is no particular interesting aspect of a game's modability, there's no need to list it here at all, or we are going to end up with a list of every game that can be modded. The Max Payne section is entirely POV and cointains no real information. Marasmusine 07:48, 12 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, there are too many individual mods listed. SharkD 20:06, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

We need to make an effort to stop this article just becoming a list of games and their mods, and make it more about the general nature of modding. I will scour my Edge magazines for references. Marasmusine 14:05, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Half-Life and Half-Life 2
Should probably be moved to the "games with official modification tools" section. Even though there ARE third party modification tools, the most used ones are provided by, in conjunction with, or are a frontend for command line programs created by Valve Software. Also, I think I could greatly expand this section as I have seven years experience moddifying these two games. Also, I think I could expand it too much! Suggestions for what to include and what NOT to include would be greatly appreciated, as well as some future help with formating :) First off, would everyone agree that although Doom and Quake were the first widely MOD'ed games, Half-Life is what made it somewhat mainstream? -70.130.138.210 06:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * My intent for the "games with official modification tools" was for games that came bundled with editors, but if you have a rationale for it, then give it a go.
 * As for expanding the article, definitely go for it but avoid original research. For example, if you want to put in a sentence about Half-Life making modding mainstream, it needs to be backed up with references from reliable sources. (You'll note that most of this article is unreferenced and needs a good pruning.) Marasmusine 07:54, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The original Half-Life came bundled with Valve's version of the Worldcraft level editor, and purchasing Half-Life2 gives you access to the Source SDK. It's a little different with Valve's games than most, because of Steam, but I definitely think that since they provided/have provided the editing tools with the same content delivery system for their games (CD/DVD media, OR Steam) that they should be moved up there.  I'm moving it.
 * I'll try and get something really nice up in it's section over the next couple weeks. -HappyRecusant 07:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Great stuff; and welcome to Wikipedia by the way :> Marasmusine 09:45, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Mod for RPG games
"Mod or modification is a term generally applied to computer games, especially first-person shooters and real-time strategy games." <-- I believe this is misleading because it creates a false idea that mods for RPG games are not "mod".

Additionally, you guys left out Dungeon Siege series. In my opinion, it's a worth mention example of "modable" RPG game because it has a sizable community as well as many projects ranging from partial to total covention.


 * Actually, the term "mod" originated with Diablo. Doom modifications were simply known as "WAD files". When Varaya & Khan created the first Diablo mod, they had to explain what it was supposed to be and wrote, "think of it as a Doom WAD for Diablo". It's thus far more an RPG than an FPS term. Unfortunately I can't find a source for this.—Graf Bobby 00:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

we should include a link to a nude mods site
oh..come on..plz?search google didnt give much...
 * External links should be kept to a minimum, and only to reliable sites (see WP:EL). It would be better to find some magazine/newspaper articles on the subject and incorporate that into the text. MarašmusïneTalk 07:54, 25 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Um, no. --The MAZZTer 22:34, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Renamed Fox'ing to Foxed
There is some evidence on the web for the use of "foxed" in this sense, I even found a definition which I added as reference, but none for "fox'ing", especially not with this strange apostrophe.—Graf Bobby 00:31, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Three uses of "foxing" can currently be seen here. Also, the existence of a verb "foxing" is logically implied by the use of "foxed" in English; anyone who uses "foxed" could explain to you what "foxing" means. --DocumentN 17:32, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Jedi Knight series
From current revision: "The Jedi Knight series has also been highly modded; the modding for this game started with the release of the second official installment, Jedi Knight 2: Jedi Outcast...". Someone actually believes that? Someone versed in the DF or/and the JK/MotS editing scene needs to fix it. Unfortunately, I don't care enough to do it myself. --DocumentN 17:32, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I edited it to properly mention Dark Forces, although I didn't feel like writing a bit about Dark Forces mods themselves.--The MAZZTer 22:34, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Art
"In the first decade of the 21st century, computer games have also been used as a digital-art medium. See artistic computer game modification."

I, and many others would argue that computer games ARE art. In fact I recall that a certain game sold well because it WAS art. I would suggest this be rephrased. I'd do it myself but I can't think of anything. Maybe someone else will have better luck. --The MAZZTer 22:34, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Nevermind I came up with something I thought was good... ideally it should go under its own header though, with a "Main article" link and all. --The MAZZTer 22:39, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Legality
Are Mods Legal? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.239.114.51 (talk) 20:58, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.207.84.170 (talk) 00:59, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

To an extent, yes, providing permission is granted to use all copyrighted material included in the mod. SaintDaveUK (talk) 13:35, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, when it comes to console games like the Xbox 360, mods are illegal. They are generally against the Terms of Use and can get your console system banned from online services. That's why most console games like Halo 3 are very difficult to mod and the mods that are made tend to be somewhat limited compared to PC games. General Heed (talk) 19:18, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:XJ8 and XJ6.JPG
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BetacommandBot (talk) 07:38, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Unofficial Patch, definition
If anyone wants to add or modify to this category, please do so, as I am no expert on the subject I'm afraid. I do believe this falls under the category of mods, as it's a title of a mod, like total conversations are. Still fan made content that alters the game. The Unbeholden (talk) 04:40, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

rhye.civfanatics.net
I recently removed links to this site added by the site-owner

This issue spans Wikipedias in multiple languages so there's a discussion underway on Meta-Wiki with the owner of this site at the bottom of this page:
 * meta:User:COIBot/XWiki/rhye.civfanatics.net

Given the history discussed there, neither the site-owner, IPs nor new user accounts should add these links or write about these mods in article space since it's against our Conflict of Interest Guideline). If established editors wish to add neutral material about the owner or his products, that's OK. Any material should cite references that meet the requirements of our No Original Research, Reliable Sources and Verifiability standards.

It's also OK for the owner to discuss suggested changes on article talk pages, as long as he/she isn't just nagging for inclusion (see WP:CANVASS).

If you want to comment on this post, it would probably be best to leave any remarks at the link above, not here, since this discussion spans multiple articles. I think that if you're already signed in on this Wikipedia, leaving a post there will automatically set up an account there for you there but I'm not sure -- you might want to make a sandbox edit there first to be sure. -- A. B. (talk • contribs) 12:42, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

360 mods spread
I was playing borderlands and a player that was useing mods put my helth way up. is there any way to turn it off. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.35.120.9 (talk) 21:26, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you should try asking at a gaming forum. Marasmusine (talk) 21:47, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Vanilla
It seems unlikely to me that playing a mod will become more common that playing an unmodified game, as suggested in the introduction. Also the explanation about the term vanilla should IMO be moved to a section like "Trivia". It is not essential for the introduction. Snuitkever (talk) 22:29, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Haven't checked the Vanilla bit, but the "becoming more popular" bit is pure speculation and totally unverifiable so I have removed it.  Alphathon ™ ( talk ) 10:10, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Actually, for some games this is exactly the case - that the mod's are more popular than the vanilla game. Neverwinter Nights and most of the Total War series being prime examples. In fact, the Neverwinter Nights Original Campaign (OC) is generally regarded, even by BioWare (in a comment on the old, now purged forums so probably difficult to verify), as a demo for what the Toolset is capable of. It could even be argued that the product sold as Neverwinter Nights was not as game at all, but a Toolset for making games within a Dungeons & Dragons framework. I am actually very surprised that NWN is not mentioned on this page for this very reason. 220.233.71.222 (talk) 00:14, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Dragon Age
Bioware released the Dragon Age toolset for Dragon Age:Origins in November 2009. Bob Hammersley (talk) 11:57, 11 January 2011 (UTC) However, there was no official modding support for subsequent titles in the Dragon Age franchise. Bob Hammersley (talk) 18:19, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Creative Assembly?
As shown in the first paragraphs The Creative Assemly is named as providing tools and supporting mods. This is false. They never had done such thing and they never released the tools that were promised for empire total war. Maybe it should be deleted from that list. Discuss please. 190.195.112.29 (talk) 06:41, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Dubious
I think that the paragraph referring to Project M may be inaccurate where it states "It was created to be more like the previous official game in the Smash Bros. series, Melee, which proved to be more popular with the Smash Bros. community than Brawl" may be inaccurate as it contains no sources and in a Nintendo Power poll from Volume 266 (April 2011) 77% said Brawl was their favorite game of the series. Cutecutecuteface2000 (talk) 21:25, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Disregard the above. I actually figured out that this states more as opinion rather than inaccuracy. Cutecutecuteface2000 (talk) 17:42, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Pandemic
I think Obscurum - Pandemic is a good example of an overhaul, since not only does it change gameplay, but it also changes the story and world of the game in it's entirety. Project Brazil is too, but it's still within the confines of the original Fallout universe. To show the dynamic sides of modding, I think these two examples put together provide good contrast on just what constitutes a overhaul. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.227.83.117 (talk) 04:19, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

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Ref URL Error
The reference n°4 : ''Bogacs, Hannes. Game Mods: A Survey of Modifications, Appropriation and Videogame Art. Vienna University of Technology - Design and Assessment of Technologies Institute. February 2008.''

have an error in his URL: http://web.student.tuwien.ac.at/~e0326417/game_mods/game_mods.pdf is a 404. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.50.159.70 (talk) 16:01, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Definition of (this kind of) a mod
Should the definition also include the specification "not made by first party" - i.e. by original developers or more specifically by a party at the instructions of those who hold the legal rights to the video game.

I think when the video game alteration is made at the instructions of the holders of legal rights, it is called a patch, when this new version is supposed to supersede the older version, or an expansion or DLC (the latter being a smaller change than the former) when it is meant as an (optional) addition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Karland90 (talk • contribs) 14:03, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

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Rename?
I feel like i wanna rename this to "Gaming Modifications" or "Modifications in Gaming", because the title doesn't make sense for a title with Parenthesis. --StaleGuy22 (talk) 17:41, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

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Mods requiring official copies
Hollywoodreporter is simply wrong. Mods do not require official copies, and in almost all cases work with pirated copies as well. Here is a recent example where a mod broke pirated copies where the pirates were otherwise using mods:. -- ferret (talk) 02:57, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
 * The new wording really isn't much different. The bottom line is there is nothing that stops mods from working on pirated games. -- ferret (talk) 03:01, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I think it'd down to a semantic subtlety, "because mods cannot be played unless the gamer owns a copy of the original retail version" does not imply that said version has to be official. So I included the main stretch of the IP's edit without the official qualifier. &#x2230; Bellezzasolo &#x2721;   Discuss  03:02, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I think it still implies, due to the end of the sentence, that we're talking about purchased copies. (In case the IP is not happy with one source, here's another talking about how the Chinese creates mods for pirated copies of Red Alert: ) -- ferret (talk) 03:03, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm looking at improving the wording further, ideas? Perhaps drop "original", due to connotations of purchase. &#x2230; Bellezzasolo &#x2721;   Discuss  03:06, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't see a way to word it that doesn't imply legal copy. Just report the facts, that mods can extend the shelf life of a game, which is certainly the case. The sentences ultimate meaning, that mods extend shelf life and sell more copies, makes the first portion imply that they do so through a requirement to own a copy. It can simply be left out and keep the important part. -- ferret (talk) 03:13, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for bringing this to the talk page. The Hollywood Reporter article is from 2004, so things might have changed since then, and the sources you've given me don't explicitly talk about 'mods' or 'modding', only piracy.  This article in general has a lot of OR in it, a lot of unsourced examples, which is why I've been carefully adding stuff from the literature on modding.  --122.108.141.214 (talk) 03:08, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Re-read the sources... they both mention mods that are being used on pirated copies. There's plenty of other examples in Google's news section. Even in 2004 though, this wasn't true. Hollywoodreporter is not a tech-specific source and simply got it wrong. -- ferret (talk) 03:13, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
 * They never use the word "mod". --122.108.141.214 (talk) 03:14, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Arstechnia uses the word "mod" 11 times. To quote the second source directly: . Trying to assume good faith here but it doesn't feel like you actually read them. -- ferret (talk) 03:16, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
 * That quote doesn't support what you're trying to assert: that you don't need an official copy to play with mods. The Ars Technica article is difficult to follow unless you play that specific game, but perhaps could be used as a counter-example.  --122.108.141.214 (talk) 03:24, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
 * What's difficult to follow about it? This particular modder featured in the Arstechnica article has repeatedly written his mods to "uncrack" pirated copies because he disagrees with pirating. The bottom line is mods work on pirated copies. -- ferret (talk) 03:27, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Then I suggest you be bold and use this source in the article, if you find it easy to follow and reliable. I only reverted you in the first place because you changed things without citing a source and the article is already stuffed with OR.  --122.108.141.214 (talk) 03:31, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Indeed. -- ferret (talk) 03:59, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that's a lot better. --122.108.141.214 (talk) 04:17, 27 November 2018 (UTC