Talk:Vijayanagara Empire

Map of Vijayanagar Empire
Dear Wiki users,The map of Vijayanagara empire seems to have a small correction.Vijayanagara empire of sangama dynasty never ruled whole srilanka and they ruled only the upper part of srilanka controlled by the Arya-chakravarthies during the time of 1441 AD to 1450 AD.Please verify it. Truk789 (talk) 06:32, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Changing Vijayanagar Kingdom's Map
The sources do not mention that Vijayanagar ruled Sri Lanka. The cited atlas has several issues, as many of its kingdom maps are inaccurate, and it conflates the histories of multiple empires from the same era. DeepstoneV (talk) 15:48, 11 April 2024 (UTC)


 * It looks like a proper consensus is needed on the maximum extent of the Empire, and the inclusion or exclusion of Sri Lanka and some other parts. Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!  03:40, 13 April 2024 (UTC) This comment folded into this discussion after the comments below through Special:diff/1219672658


 * The map doesn't shows Vijayanagara rule in Sri Lanka but shows its supremacy over it - https://archive.org/details/in.gov.ignca.16035/page/260/mode/1up?view=theater - According to Persian ambassador Abdur Razzak Vijayanagaran dominions spread over from Ceylon to Kulburga as supported by Nuniz Sathyashraya (talk) 12:36, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The cartographer also included tributary regions on the Vijayanagara map. However, the same source you provided also mentioned Vijayanagara's tribute to the Bahmani Sultanate. Therefore, it would be appropriate to depict Vijayanagara territories under Bahmani Sultanates as well.Even if we consider Vijayanagara Suzerainty over Sri Lanka than it would only be on Jaffna kingdom of Sri Lanka not all of Sri Lanka. I can make a accurate map of Vijayanagara empire if u can Provide me the source that Jaffna Kingdom of Sri Lanka was under vassalization of Vijayangar DeepstoneV (talk) 18:49, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Restored to the original version for now until a consensus here can be formed and especially be attributed with sources. Noorullah (talk) 21:03, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The current map appears to be more accurate, as Sri Lanka was not governed by Vijayanagara. If it had been ruled, it would have been only the Jaffna Kingdom under their suzerainty.The old map collides the histories of multiple kingdoms. DeepstoneV (talk) 08:38, 18 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Previous, current? Please be specific. I've added a gallery, to make it clear what we're talking about. Looking at this map ("globalsecurity.org") (webpage here) and this map ("Ancient Indian Coins") (webpage here), it seems that Calicut, Sri Lanka, and apart of the Gajapati Kingdom of Orissa were tributaries of the Vijayanagara Empire. This is reflected in none of the maps above. Also, the extent of the Vijayanagara Empire's hold on Sri Lanka seems to be disputed, and the inclusion of the coastal area of the Bahmani Kingdom or Sultanate also seems a matter of dispute. So, we do indeed need a new map, based on more sources than just the present one,, which is obviously inaccurate.  could you offer your skills and talents here?  Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!  05:27, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Here is the preliminary version of a map, based on the one published by Burton Stein, eminent historian of South India. It's from his History of India (2nd ed., 2010) p.135, Map 8, for circa 1485. The legend doesn't clarify about direct rule versus tributaries, so I am unclear why the Gajapati area is shaded unlike Calicut and Sri Lanka. I will try to collect more sources when I get an opportunity, to add details and modify as needed. Vijayanagara Empire c.1485.png -Avantiputra7 (talk) 11:41, 30 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Thanks! Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!  13:05, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Successor and predecessor states
Hello @Joshua Jonathan, this is concerning my edit you recently reverted. The successor and predecessor states are concerned with the states that immediately succeed the entity after it disestablished and the states that directly precede the entity just before it was created. All the states I removed from the predecessor list were the states which in part or whole conquered by the Vijayanagar Empire after it was established and the ones I removed from the successors list are the states that conquered parts of the Vijaynagar Empire, but do not succeed it. See articles like Russian Empire and German Empire for comparison. PadFoot2008 (talk) 11:26, 12 April 2024 (UTC)


 * thank you for your response. I don't think the comparison is apt; those empires may have been followed-up as a whole by successor states, but history doesn't alays seem to be that clear-cut; see Austrian Empire for another kind of comparison. Regards, Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!  11:31, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Joshua Jonathan, but the history is pretty clear cut in this case. It was founded in the former Hoysala territory and conquered by the Sultanate of Bijapur. And you can see for yourself how clumsy and unhelpful the the successor and predecessor list has become. It is not helpful at all to the readers. Just think how utterly cluttered the lists of pre-modern states in the Indian subcontinent (or anywhere else for this matter) would be, if we were to list every single state that conquered even the smallest portion of the concerned state or vice versa. And not to state it is completely unhelpful. PadFoot2008 (talk) 11:41, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
 * hm... The article itself states
 * Can we ask some other editors for their opinion? ? You know some more editors we can ask? Regards, Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!  11:50, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Joshua Jonathan, It does indeed but they didn't succeed Vijayanagara. I don't think declaring independence from a country is the same as succeeding the country if it still existed after the declaration. Pinging @Fylindfotberserk. And it still doesn't justify including the successor and predecessor states that have nothing to do with what you said above and have been added just because they conquered some territories from the state and vice versa. PadFoot2008 (talk) 12:06, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Indeed, it is hard to know who "declared" independence, and who simply ignored the diktats, and who remained in the fold but acted independently etc. This is a "fissure", not "succession". may know better. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:52, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
 * So @Kautilya3, should we leave the predecessor to just "Hoysala Kingdom" and the successor to "Bahamani Sultanate"? PadFoot2008 (talk) 13:34, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Joshua Jonathan and @Kautilya3 What is the consensus at the moment among you two? PadFoot2008 (talk) 05:00, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Joshua Jonathan and @Kautilya3 What is the consensus at the moment among you two? PadFoot2008 (talk) 05:00, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Kautilya3 and I have a consensus on relying on reliable sources, and oppozing Hindu nationalists - no, just kidding. I looked-up the template for further explanation, but it only says "preceding entity" and "succeeding entity," which is not very helpfull. I'd say that there are wide margins, but I'll have a further look at your proposal. I don't know that much about the empire, I just know how to find and judge sources. Regards, Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!  05:29, 13 April 2024 (UTC) The Bahamani Sultanate mostly did not cover the territory of the empire, so I disagree there. The Hoysala Kingdom covered a large part of what became the empire, but not all of it. The article says:

So, I think I disagree there too. Joshua Jonathan -  Let's talk!  05:39, 13 April 2024 (UTC)


 * @Joshua Jonathan, No mate, you got it wrong there. "It was founded as a successor to prosperous Hindu kingdoms" is not meant to show that it came up in the territories of those states, rather it continued in their earlier attempts to resist the Muslim invasions of South India. Also about the Bahamani Sultanate, the Sultanate conquered the entirety of the empire in 1646. Your misunderstanding is due to it losing territories much, much earlier to other regional South Indian kingdoms, but they didn't succeed or fully conquer the Vijayanagara Empire. Rather it was a defeat for the empire but not it's end. PadFoot2008 (talk) 05:46, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Preceding and succeeding entities make sense only where there is clear-cut succession of polities. Vijayanagara neither succeeded anything, nor was it succeeded by anything. So both the fields should be blank.
 * Infobox should only summarise the body. It should not invent new facts of its own.-- Kautilya3 (talk) 08:20, 13 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Respectfully disagree with you here. But then, as I already note, "preceding and succeeding entity" (see Template:Infobox country) is vague and ambiguous. I read it as 'the next state/kingdom at that territory', not as a succession of polities. Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!  08:43, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, well, that is what I mean though. (In India, these things have always been polities, or states if you prefer, never "countries"). When there is a clear-cut event of disintegration, like say the Soviet Union, we have clear succeeding polities. When there is a gradual disintegration, it is a process. These processes are certainly important, but they are hard to write about. One can develop this version of Nayaka dynasties into a WP:BCA, and that can be used to describe the process.
 * But, as of now, we don't have the information to declare "succeeding entities", because we don't know when they became independent, or de jure or de facto independence, or whether it is just somebody's opinion that they became independent etc. etc. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:17, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Infoboxes just aren't as clear as they seem to be at first sight... Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!  12:21, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree with @Kautilya3. The current list of "succeeding and preceding entity" is just loads of nonsense and very unhelpful to readers. It's better that to make it blank. PadFoot2008 (talk) 06:23, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Vandalism against vijaynagar Empire map
Previous uploaded map was in accurate Mnbnjghiryurr (talk) 15:07, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Map Change
@DeepstoneV@Joshua Jonathan@Sathyashraya@Avantiputra7 @Noorullah21 I want to propose a map change for Vijaynagar Empire as the current map of Vijanagar Empire which is this 1 does not show the extent of Empire from the perspective of whole subcontinent and it is not that graphically good too. Hence I wanted that this map 2 should be used in place of the earlier one(Source has been cited in the source section of the map). Let's have a consensus

Regards Rawn3012 (talk) 06:24, 11 May 2024 (UTC)


 * That's a very nice map; my compliments. Nevertheless, I'd like to wait and see if Avantiputra will refine his map, and I'd like to hear his thoughts. Regards, Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!  06:38, 11 May 2024 (UTC)


 * @Rawn3012@Joshua Jonathan Yes, I am in favor of using this proposed new map: it looks good to me generally. My one lingering concern is that I still have not been able to reach a firm conclusion as to what areas should be shaded or not, or what year to use. For instance, Map 3.1 (p.65) in India before Europe by Catherine B. Asher and Cynthia Talbot (2nd. ed., 2023: Cambridge University Press)—depicting the reign of Deva Raya II in 1432-1446—has included the northern piece of Sri Lanka, but not the Gajapati lands beyond the Krishna River. The reasoning is not made clear, comparing the text on p.66, which describes his conquests. I don't know of any fresh conquests between 1446 and 1485 to explain it. The reign of Krishnadevaraya (1509-1529) has also been considered as the peak of the empire due to victories over the Deccan Sultanates and Gajapatis, but I can't find whether the territory in Sri Lanka was still held at that time. (Asher and Talbot Map 6.1 on p.205 doesn't make it clear.) -Avantiputra7 (talk) 08:03, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Joshua Jonathan@Avantiputra7 Disclaimer: My comment is for the time frame of 1485 only; As far as the territory of Vijaynagar Empire beyond Krishna river is concerned. It can't be clarified as indeed did Saluva Narasimha took the territory of Udaygiri which falls in Andhra Pradesh from Gajapatis but it is far from Krishna river delta and the territories held by Vijaynagar in Sri Lanka according to me was temporary(conquests followed by reconquests). As a result, proper boundary-making is very difficult. However, I am adding the proposed map as it shows the extent of the Empire from a subcontinental purpose. If a change is proposed, I would do it else, It's an SVG file which means you can edit the map by yourself.
 * Regards Rawn3012 (talk) 17:41, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi, @Joshua Jonathan @Avantiputra7 The map I provided previously has a new version 1. It shows more details like topography and removes the anachronistic modern national and regional boundaries. It is based on the same old source of the Vijayanagara Empire c.1485, according to Burton Stein's History of India (2nd ed., 2010) p.135, Map 8. I have added the updated map in the infobox. If you find something wrong or have different views. Please feel free to change or recommend me Rawn3012 (talk) 01:24, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Is there any way you can zoom in a bit on Vijayanagara? The old map looked fine zoomed out with the extra details and borders but now that everything non-Vijayanagara is just blank space, the map looks.. not great to say the least. I think it would be best if you used the look and style of the old map but zoomed in (a lot) on Vijayanagara, which would remove the current country border issue. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 01:37, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree with FN that the blank space looks odd, if not 'alien'; I also would prefer the previous version (sorry....). Regards, Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!  03:02, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Vijayanagar Kingdom
The term Vijayanagar Kingdom should be represented instead of Empire Dooblts (talk) 18:51, 18 July 2024 (UTC)


 * See WP:COMMONNAME; ngram shows that using "Empire" is the far more common usage. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 18:58, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Than why the name Maratha Empire was changed into Maratha Conferadacy Dooblts (talk) 19:22, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * And in that case most Kingdoms can he represented as Empires. I have saw SKAG changing the of Hoysala Empire to Hoysala Kingdom, Similar actions should be take on Vijayanagar Empire's article Dooblts (talk) 19:23, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That's because, for the Hoysala example, Hoysala Kingdom is the common name, if you looked at SKAG's requested move statement, while Vijayanagar Kingdom is not. Vijayanagara also has a much better case for being called an Empire than the Hoysalas as the former was much more than a minor power but controlled much of India at its peak. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 19:28, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Map with tributaries by me
https://imgur.com/a/hLTvo3e PranshavAnandPatel (talk) 15:07, 20 July 2024 (UTC)