Talk:Vince Foster/Archive

Murdered?
Some say Foster was murdered to keep him from revealing dirt on Clinton. [20:44, 29 November 2001 Ed Poor]


 * This site makes some interesting claims.

That belongs on the main page: that's certainly part of "the Vince Foster story" as the American media covered it. [15:51, 25 February 2002 Conversion script]

Rodriguez allegation
I wonder about including that accusation by Miquel Rodriguez. After a search on the Web, I only see it referenced by conspiracy sites. Just sticking it in there at the end of the article as a kind of "update" gives it a lot of credibility that maybe it doesn't deserve. --ACS [21:01, 6 August 2004 Acsenray] ---
 * If a reliable source can't be provided it should be removed.


 * A pointer: See reference below to Ambrose Evans-Pritchard's 'Secret Life of Bill Clinton'. It contains significant discussion of Rodriguez's claims and (I think) provides some references.  The book's index contains seven references to Rodriquez.


 * Links to audio of assitant U.S. Attorney Miquel Rodriguez and Brett Kavanaugh can be heard in their own words at Accuracy In Media and FBIcover-up.com.  Both men were tape recorded by the late Reed Irvine, former chairman of Accuracy In Media.

Starr Addendum
There's a lot of talk about an addundum Starr was forced by his three judicial appointers to include, and did under separate cover, a 20-page letter from witness Knowlton and his lawyer Clarke explaining that the FBI pestered Knowlton to attest to seeing Foster's car at the park, and when he would not, falsified his statements to say he did. No newspaper published this addendum including those claiming to have published the whole Starr report. Is this so - starting with does this addendum exist? 142.177.23.136 15:44, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yes, the addendum does exist and it can be seen online or if you order the Report on the Death of Vincent Foster from the Government Printing Office it will come as part of the complete 137 page Report for about $15

Ft Marcy
I believe the Fort Marcy refered to is this one which is in Virginia on the GW Parkway. [02:55, 7 October 2004 69.140.152.162]
 * You are correct, yes, Ft. Marcy Park is along the GW Parkway, and that's where Foster was found. I'm a bit annoyed I never noticed that error. :) --Golbez 02:58, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

HMA
This article mentions the conspiracy about Vince being pushed to release information about Clinton, but it completely avoids mentioning that his suicide took place right when Canadian investigators began questioning him about Health Management Associates. While the American press could care less about tainted blood in Canada - and therefore had no reason to report it, the timing seems to make this issue rather important if you are going to write about a possible conspiracy. Kainaw 15:14, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Data Compiled by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard (Questioning Official Conclusions)
Ambrose Evans-Pritchard's (of The Sunday Telegraph) 1997 Regnery book 'The Secret Life of Bill Clinton' contains over 150 pages of details on the alleged timeline and events of the Foster investigation, including facsimile reproductions of much of the official FBI-processed evidence, and several first-hand interviews of witnesses and investigators. Besides C. Ruddy's book, this probably constitutes the most extensive publication of the view that is skeptical of the official story. Evans-Pritchard's journalistic credentials go far beyond what C. Ruddy could ever have claimed. It seems that this article ought to at least mention the treatment by the Evans-Pritchard book, yet no mention at all is currently made.

I think the fact that the mentioned book was published by Regnery, alone, justifies keeping some mention of the conspiracy theory aspect of the Vince Foster article.

Conspiracy Theory
I broke out the conspiracy portions into another section. I still think it's a bit POV, but I'm not sure how to fix it) --CVaneg 16:47, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Other than the Rodriguez tape, what's the major POV issue here? Also, when did that development happen? Things in wikipedia shouldn't say 'latest development' without telling when this development took place. Is the tape mentioned in the first section the same as the tape mentioned in the second? Sorry for all the questions, I just found this article. Cmouse 14:30, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

The entire conspiracy theory should really be removed. It poses a number of questions that sound like they are being asked by the author. None of these claims have been substantiated. It would be like adding a "flat earth conspiracy theory" section to an article on the globe. Discussion such as these should be relegated to the talk page. At the very least, the part about the Rodriguez tape needs to go. --BadMojoDE 23:22, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

I would love to see proof one way or the other that the Rodriguez tape is a fake. As for the whole conspiracy section, it has to stay. It's too notable. Cmouse 01:55, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

CMouse - OK, I can respect that; however, I have removed the last paragraph regarding the Rodriguez tape because it is mentioned in the first paragraph under the Conspiracy Theory section and it was simply a repeat. I've also added the following: "Neither Clinton nor any members of his staff have publicly addressed the speculations that arose from Foster's death. Since investigators at the time formally ruled that the cause of death was suicide, the conspiracy theories remain unsubstantiated to this day." AFAIK, this is fact. If anyone can show me an example of a Clinton staffer writing or speaking about these rumors, I'd be happy to edit this. And the fact is that the theories ARE unsubstantiated. If any credible evidence had been presented at the time, Clinton would certainly have been impeached much earlier than he was (or at the very least, forced to resign.) --BadMojoDE 00:10, 25 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I think the most reasonable conspiracy theories don't have anything to do with Clinton or the fact that the death was a suicide so I'm confused on the relevance of that statement. I doubt anyone reasonable thinks he was murdered by Clinton! and your edits seem to imply this. And I don't know anything about the Rodriguez tape - I was just trying to get those more knowledgeable about the situation to discuss. Cmouse 07:36, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

I have heard that it was, in fact, suicide, but the scandal is about why. It is rumored that His wife and Hillary Clinton were intimate, and this is what pushed him over the edge.

Clinton addresses the Foster death in depth in his book "My Life." In fact, he discusses more than once. He devotes quite a bit on it in chronological order when it happened, then discusses it again as it was investigated by Starr. -Squirrel


 * That would be a good perspective to add. Arbusto 00:19, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Strange coincidences in this case...
...How can it even be CONSIDERED that it was a suicide? Any investigator will tell you that it's impossible to shoot yourself--and have the gun so meticulously fall by your side and you still holding the gun...

There isn't any way...if you blow your brains out, the gun would fall out of your hand at least, or if you were holding it, your arms wouldn't be so neatly at your side. They would be sprawled out--palms up possibly.

...NOT neatly fall at your side--ready to be buried in a coffin.

...And how can you shoot yourself twice in the back of your head???

--jfritzyb

PS No dirt on Vince's shoes too...critical pictures of Vince's body that went to the developing shop never came out--and when further investigated, it was discovered that the negatives were exposed....hmm? Too much of a coincidence...and how can several people seemingly decide to "kill" themselves almost at the same time?

...If this doesn't convince you that it wasn't suicide, then nothing else will.


 * Where is a source (more precisely a independent source) to any of this? This garabage was started by Christopher Ruddy and funded by Richard Mellon Scaife to bring down Clinton. If reliable sources (ie news/journalistic sources) can't be provided this stuff should be removed. This reminds me of the Bush-9/11 conspiracy theories. It's garabage. -GH

RE: Strange Coincidences...
Do you mind if I ask where you got your information? Were you one of the investigators? Were you on the Ken Starr legal team? Were you even in DC when it happened? I would like to know what your source is. If you can't source it, then the post will need to be removed.

RE: Evidence compiled...onto video...
Cataloged Evidence On Tape

If you watch it, you'll get ALL of the evidence--not only that, you'll get the evidence that was left out of the "official report."

...Need more hardcore evidence?

The HARDER evidence

I hope this is enough...

--jfritzyb
 * Why doesn't that website provide any outside references from the offical reports (Ken Starr, [[FBI]), news articles, ect.? Any person can go online and find outrageous claims on a website, but that doesn't make those pages "sources" or correct. That is why independent documentation is needed.

Clinton murdered White House Aid Vince Foster over the March Rich attempted arrest
As Vice President, under Bill Clinton, Albert Gore Jr., tried to arrest criminal fugitive Marc Rich. Clinton murdered White House Aid Vince Foster over the March Rich attempted arrest, Foster was working with Al Gore. Bill Clinton gave a Presidential Pardon to Mossad Agent & Fugitive Marc Rich.

Stew Webb Federal Whistleblower

Are you serious? Please provide references. And until then, do not post this as part of the article or it will be removed. --BadMojoDE 01:18, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
 * The stew website also claims Cheney and Bush were behind 9/11. Clearly, the information provided on that website is at the very least high questionable. -GH

Segements to be removed
The following should be cited with legitmate sources (ie no Moon hoax type websites) or removed:

Although it has been maintained that he was killed by a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head at that site, no bullet fragments were ever found and very little blood was present at the body's final location.

'''While he was located on an incline, the trickle of blood ran contrary to gravity. No explanation was offered to explain this odd phenomenon. '''

No room for made up stuff on this page. As Jerry Falwell said about the Clinton Chronicles (a video he funded and sold): "To this day I do not know the accuracy of the claims made in The Clinton Chronicles." -GH

NPOV
I have added a tag to dispute the neutrality of the article ( POV ) because the article states as fact some things which are HIGHLY controversial. Stating that his death was ruled suicide is factual. Stating that he committed suicide, that he shot himself or that the "note" was in fact a suicide note, are opinions. I intend to get back here soon, to fix this, and to include additional references. --TEW
 * If you want to dispute the sources in the article you must produce sources that conflict. Provide the following:
 * 1) Source that his death wasn't a suicide according to the final report.
 * (The section in question is specifically for conspiracy theories regarding Foster's death. By their very nature they will disagree with the final report.  Asking for a source that "proves" a conspiracy theory makes no sense.12.116.129.74 23:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC))
 * 2) A source that the note wasn't a "suicide note." (a note left at a suicide usually equals a suicide note.)
 * (The alleged "suicide note" was NOT left at the scene of Foster's death. Therefore, even if Foster's death was suicide, the comment above (a note left at a suicide usually equals a suicide note) dosen't apply in this case.  There is room for doubt that the unsigned, typewritten, torn fragments found days later in Foster's office had anything to do with his death.12.116.129.74 23:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC))
 * If sources for dispute aren't WP:RS or no sources are provided then the NPOV tag will be removed. Arbusto 19:45, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The dispute over Foster's death is also being argued over at the Brett Kavanaugh article. 205.188.117.68 10:55, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

The conspiracy theory was the reason I looked up Vince Foster in the first place. Much to my disappointment, the entire "conspiracy theory" background section is dedicated almost soley to any conservative who ever gave a penny to investigate the death (a death that of course political opponent would be highly interested in). A true NPOV article should at least mention what the theory is before discreditting it as right-wing bilge designed to run the Clintons out of office. In my opinion there is a little too much of the latter and almost none of the former for the conspiracy theory background section to be truely NPOV. I found the the first link in the talk section to be interesting enough to have some of it's points mentioned in the conspiracy theory section (not necessarily over the top stuff, but things like whitewater links, and other verifiable but probably irrelevant facts). 69.156.114.129 03:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)IM

I agree. The whole conspiracy theory section is very biased towards the suicide explanation for Foster's death, and strongly rejects the other explanations without even explaining fully what they are. It should be rewritten to be a LOT more NPOV.12.116.129.74 23:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Foster's depression
There is no mention in this article of his wife's statement that something was seriously wong. Foster was so afraid that she had to hold him in bed so he could sleep.

Does any one have information on the path of the bullet in his head? Several sites argue that the lack of blood show he did not fire the shot. But the placement of the gun in pictures indicates he fired from front to rear not up through sinus cavities.

L K Tucker 68.158.196.75 06:24, 29 June 2006 (UTC) http://VisionAndPsychosis.Net there is no page about Foster on my site but the fear is the same as Mark O Barton reported, day trader shooter Atlanta. Click any link to Researcher to reach me.

David Brock
Cut from article:


 * David Brock (previously of the Heritage Foundation) of the American Spectator also went after the Clintons. In fact it was he who first published a story about sexual allegations Paula Jones, which later contradicted other claims. So called "Troopergate" led to Jones (as well one of her lawyers, Ann Coulter) suing Clinton despite contradictory statements and no proof of the allegations. Nonetheless, Brock continued to spread such rumors until a 1997 Esquire magazine article titled "I Was a Conservative Hit Man" recanting on his claims. After years claiming controversy, Brock recanted, claiming that the Clintons did nothing wrong. In 1998, he went further and personally apologized. Consequently, Brock was let go from the Spectator and published his 2002 book "Blinded by the Right: The Conscience of an Ex-Conservative." In that book, Brock addresses "This continum of Republican attack politics from Watergate to W. is the unacknowledged back story of Brock’s book, which is its own back story to the last third of those three decades." Brock described "Millions of dollars were soon flowing to conservative organizations that vied with each other for the biggest bucks by demonstrating how effectively they could undermine liberals, Democrats and other “enemies.” The tougher the attack strategies, the more likely the organizations would get fat checks from the foundations." The Washington Post noted "Brock recalled being summoned to a meeting with Armistead in Miami, at an airport hotel. Armistead laid out an elaborate "Vince Foster murder scenario," Brock said – a scenario that he found implausible."

That paragraph was well-written and amply sourced, but what does it have to do with the theory that someone murdered Vince Foster? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wing_Nut (talk • contribs)


 * I believe the last part is the important segment: The Washington Post noted "Brock recalled being summoned to a meeting with Armistead in Miami, at an airport hotel. Armistead laid out an elaborate "Vince Foster murder scenario," Brock said – a scenario that he found implausible." . C56C 06:48, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

More POV stuff
Removed this from the Different Theories section: "Of course, snopes.com has absolutely no insight into the motives of Kenneth Starr, so their assessment is little more than guesswork." The page makes clear that this is merely an informed guess, and the harsh tone of this sentence really is passing judgement.

There are a few more problems like this with the article, but that was one of the more obvious (and easily fixable) ones. --Edwin Herdman 07:50, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

External Link to "Wikisource suicide note"
I clicked on the link and Wikisource says it has no page matching; tried a Wikisource search on "Vince Foster" and came up nothing. I'm assuming that link should be taken out, but not doing so, since someone else may know that it's just broken and can fix it. Or a better expert than I on Vince Foster can deal with it. 74.134.59.45 04:48, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

WOW, CONSPIRACY THEORISTS UNITE
It seems like the only motivation behind this wiki whatsoever is the idea that this poor fool was the victim of some politically-motivated murder. Maybe... maybe not... but you guys are doing yourselves no justice by focusing the entire article on an issue that is unproven and controversial. Maybe if you brought some of his history, I mean, before his death and all, to light... it would seem like a legitimate entry.

...just a recommendation. 71.77.209.166 09:13, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

found dead prior to announcing his resignation?
Quote: "He was found dead in Fort Marcy Park off the George Washington Parkway in Virginia, outside Washington D.C., a day prior to announcing his resignation as White House Deputy Counsel."

How could he have announced his resignation the day after he died? This is bizarre. Either he announced this before he died, or he never announced it at all. I'm not familiar with the story so I don't know which.--Eloil 12:29, 28 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay, I'm going to just go ahead and remove the phrase "a day prior to announcing his resignation as White House Deputy Counsel", since nobody's offered any thoughts.--Eloil 12:27, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Richard Mellon Scaife
I took out this bit that characterized AIM - "A group that has received over $2 million dollars from [[Richard Mellon Scaife]."

Unless you want to suffix every reference in Wikipedia that cites Media Matters (and there are hundreds) with the disclaimer "A group that received millions in funding from George Soros" then you're just pushing a POV.

And no, just because Media Matters denies it, that doesn't mean it's not true.

Horses mouth - Vince Foster commited suicide...
The neoconservative journalist, David Brooks, who started the whole story about Clinton killing Foster has admitted it was a blatant lie in the BBC program, The Power Of Nightmares: Episode 2. I thought someone here would like to reference that on this page rather than Snopes.com.