Talk:Vince Lombardi/to do

His Senior Year, the 1936 Rams...okay there is no mention of Rams before this. This needs work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.234.33.7 (talk) 00:27, 1 December 2010 (UTC) \\I
 * Rams BAHAHAHA

It is not really mentioned that much but the fact that he was 'undersized' is not portrayed enough. The gist of Mandriss's work was that he overachieved on a not physical level.

"His Senior Year, the 1936 Rams went 5-0-2 before losing, what Lombardi called; "The most devastating loss of my life," when they lost the final game of the season 7-6 to NYU, and with it, the hopes of playing in the Rose Bowl."
 * Most devastating loss

This is a personal list and is only a personal opinion and not necessarily accurate or factual:
 * Conflicts in sources or troubling sources
 * 1) Jim Ringo
 * 2) anything any author quotes Lombardi on (he was a marketing agent for GB)
 * 3) the block except for Kramer
 * 4) teeth lost at St. Mary's and/or against Pitt no matter who is the source
 * 5) anything Wellington Mara said to the press (he was a marketing agent/owner of NYG)
 * 6) Eisenberg uses supposition
 * 7) anything David Klein wrote
 * 8) Gruver, which I documented on the Nitschke Wikipedia article, clearly lists the Dec 1957 (1958) NFL draft by the Green Bay franchise to be the best ever (up, and until at least 2002).
 * 9) Maraniss implies in his book that a colonoscopy might have helped Lombardi(that's the way the article reads now), however O'Brien on page 370-371 writes that Dr. Paul Coffey utterly refutes the notion that it would have helped Lombardi. That being said, what's the good doctor supposed to say? So I would turn around and rewrite it the other way (that it would not have helped Lombardi) and put down in the citation that Maraniss implies that it would have. 173.52.5.48 (talk) 00:08, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

This is a personal list and is only a personal opinion and not necessarily accurate or factual:
 * Trusted sources
 * 1) Frank Gifford
 * 2) Jerry Kramer
 * 3) Jerry Vainisi in  Papa Bear on Jack Vainisi and Maraniss on Vainisi  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.52.5.48 (talk) 22:32, 1 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Todo
 * 1) O'Brien pg. 95 "sense of humor" Wiebusch pg. 27
 * 2) Archival of web pages I linked too
 * 3) inclusion of the 1958 NFL Championship game
 * 4) Need nfl.com reference on Ice Bowl being one of the most famous games ever also. All the Ice Bowl stuff can/should be replaced by one sentence after a section The Coach(or something like that) comes in. Putting Ice Bowl stuff in this article does not add to Lombardi, it only is a detriment to the Wikipedia page on the Ice Bowl. The Ice Bowl is a monumental game, but Lombardi, "it could be said, had nothing to do with that final drive." p. 426 - I'm working on Ice Bowl. I am awaiting Shropshire's book. Making major headway on Ice Bowl article though still awaiting Shropshire's book. Dying to reduce Ice Bowl Section. I want to get the Ice Bowl article respectable first.
 * 5) Legacy looks to wrap up with Lombardi being a lightning rod for the times.
 * 6) All my ePub page numbers have to be rechecked. I was reading them wrong.
 * 7) "preoccupied with football on honeymoon", 2 other notable figures, Paul Brown and I forget the other
 * 8) there is one last source on Lombardi that I have not gotten hold of yet and I have to read a book 7 times through b4 I can get a handle on it. I forget who the author is.
 * 9) figure out how to do nested citation with tag|ref|
 * 10) Paul Brown biography
 * 11) Lombardi as Green Bay general manager and his record associated w draft picks
 * 12) new york giant section expanded
 * 13) west point section expanded, including the fact that Blaik wanted him back, maybe that's just an exhibition of the strength of Blaik as an individual (?)
 * 14) green bay section needs to be expanded at least 5-fold, maybe 10-fold
 * 15) redskin section cut in half or third
 * 16) labor relations between NFL and owners are not really up to snuff on Wikipedia, Lombardi was in there on multiple occasions
 * 17) how salary exploded in NFL not really explained that well on Wikipedia
 * 18) I was against FA Jackie Robinson detailing his salary from year to year but for a coach in the NFL, it fits fine. I have not included it, per se, but it needs to be included because it allows a list for how salaries have changed. A list of how salaries have changed for baseball players, including that of Robinson, still makes absolutely no sense to me.
 * 19) need to tighten up early life to 3 paragraphs, if possible. have 3 paragraphs thanks to wikipedia help desk, need to refine and work on prose, very happy at this point although green bay packer section will be a monster to tackle
 * 20) associated articles that need work:
 * Ice Bowl
 * Bart Starr (someone is working on it and hopefully I did not scare him/her way :
 * Ray Nitschke
 * George Halas
 * Paul Brown
 * Wellington Mara
 * Pete Rozelle
 * Tom Landry
 * Bob Lilly
 * Randy White
 * Four Hourseman of Notre Dame
 * Red Blaik

This article has a long way to go.

DO NOT ADD TO THIS SECTION. IT NEEDS TO BE DELETED. 16:50, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

I am going to bring in temporary section headers in the article because I can not manage it otherwise 66.234.33.8 (talk) 09:46, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Temporary Sections

(on an island stands fraternity membership)-> that fraternity may be responsible for copy/pasting 3 lines from their website to the article. I see no reason to remove those 3 lines because they are unsourced and eventually will be changed anyway, in time.
 * Early Life
 * birth
 * Italian heritage
 * family
 * bourgeouise
 * religion
 * racism
 * footbal
 * Problems


 * 1) fraternity membership does not fit the theme of the article. However, before deleting this statement realize that Lombardi was a member of a large number of organizations and charitable organizations that are not listed anywhere in this article. It's a complicated issue, that being said, I think the chance that this statement will stay in this form is a 100-1 long-shot at best.
 * 2) meat-cutting business implementation is ugly.
 * 3) ethnically-diverse, middle-class neighborhood might require 3 unique inline citations, I'll have to quadruple check that. But I think I found the missing, 4th citation, that will reduce it to 2 unique inline citations today. I triple checked those citations. They all look valid, proper and clean. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 16:53, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
 * 4) the word uncoached does not show up for me in my dictionary. If you look at the raw edits, then you will see that the original source is saying VL was calling the offensive plays. I do not consider that a notable fact. I have never played organized football (I just recently learned the difference between an offensive tackle and offensive guard) and I used to call the offensive plays in pick-up games.

If this is bad, wait to High School years. Maraniss and O'Brien conflict each other and it has to be handled with pen and paper and common sense...not fun at all. done 66.234.33.8 (talk) 16:54, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Please feel free to correct my prose/typos just be advised my citations are based on my prose :) 66.234.33.8 (talk) 11:43, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Lastly, I finally found someone to criticize my edits. They said it was flowery. I agree. The Ice Bowl Facenda is not long for this article because it now exists in the Ice Bowl article - an article that before I started had 0 citations and now has 86+ for a 3 hour game. The point altar boy VL decides to become a priest is not going to last. I see no hurry in removing it now. However, Maraniss (DM) is kind of ticking me off. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 16:09, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Another obstacle overcome: I had to sit down with pen and paper and work through his early years to figure out how old VL was at each point in his schooling. Maraniss harps on him being older and losing a year of schooling. O'Brien's source looks to be he Leonard Schecher's article Toughest Man in Pro Football which appeared in Esquire in January 1968 on page 145. First off, VL did not go out of his way to fix inaccuracies in his historical record, i.e. magna cum laude, and graduation from law school. Second, VL having lost a year of schooling would definitely show him being unwise for attempting to become a priest and staying so long. Third, Lombardi would have to had started kindergarten at age 7 - if kindergarten existed back then.
 * High School

Fraternity sentence makes no sense to me. But, I see no reason to remove it. If a telegram from a Omega Delta brother exists in the GB Hall of Fame, then I guess it has to stay.

Prose is bad. Now just need a transition to his scholarship. *pant* 66.234.33.8 (talk) 20:17, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

His "poor athleticism and eyesight" is taken out of context. DM attributes that to his failings, what looks like, 3-6 years before Cathedral. I do not see any reason to change it at this time. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 18:44, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

The first year section looks to be temporary. The article is kind of complicated for me to write without compartmentalizing it. I have been forced to skip West Point and the New York Giants because I have not read Blaik and Cohane's book, nor Bert Bell's autobiography. The financial standing of the Packers would change dramatically within 10 years, but that was not primarily the result of Lombardi and the Packer team itself. That was because of the lucrative television Rozelle negotiated. Rozelle, like Jackie Robinson, was voted one of the top 100 most influential Americans of the 20th Century. And while Jackie Robinson has a featured article on Wikipedia, Rozelle's article is ....B-class, umm which probably overrates by at least 10,000 fold. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 18:22, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Coaching Career
 * Green Bay Packers
 * First year

I have put two citations that quote same author, book, page in the same sentence because I might not be able to find a citation that can substantiate both statements w same author, book and page. The help files on Wikipedia do not help with this kind of problem as far as I can see. And I can not get in trouble with overly citing something. I just look stupid, which is not a first, nor will it be a last. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 18:30, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

To my recollection, all the stuff that DM wrote about the NYG and VL, w/respect to VL leaving GB to coach the NYG, is not true. It is handled in Gifford or Summerall's book. One of them met VL for drinks on 52nd st. on his way to Rozelle's office. VL wanted out of GB.
 * Errata

Umm, these guys are all marketeers. Anything that Mara, VL, or anyone else says in quotes is not trustworthy at all.

Umm, have fun researching racial integration in the NFL. In 1932 it was integrated and by 1934, magically, there was not a single African-American gifted enough to play in the NFL and there would not be a single African-American gifted enough for over a decade. Umm, yeah. Wall of Silence.

Unless I interpreted DM wrong, which I do sometimes, he has it wrong w/respect to VL's salary at St. Cecilia. MO is incomplete on the subject. But VL looks to have started St. Cecilia at 1000/year, went up to 1700/year when he made head coach, and left when his salary was 3500/year. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 16:23, 9 April 2011 (UTC)


 * List of GA or FA Sports Biographies on Wikipedia

For reference, I follow:
 * Jackie Robinson

There is a GA college football coach but he is nowhere near VL in status. I thought for sure that Bear Bryant would at least a GA, but alas, when I looked at it, I found out it was not. No GA or FA articles for iconic sports coaches hurts me badly. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 16:35, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Please feel free to rewrite anything I have written. I have 15 close to 30 books under my belt and if the statements are verifiable, then I can almost guarantee that I can cite the restructured sentences. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 17:10, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Rewriting Prose


 * Acronyms
 * VL=Vince Lombardi (Senior)
 * DM=David Maraniss
 * MO=Michael O'Brien

66.234.33.8 (talk) 18:22, 10 April 2011 (UTC)