Talk:Vincent and the Doctor

Location location location
the article says"Scenes set in Paris were actually filmed on location in Trogir" but i realy recognize Paris and the Orsey museum ..it must be more accurate that the scenes filmed on Croatia were actualy Auvers-sur-Oise, the city who lives vincent van gogh at the time the Doctor visite him —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.224.19.14 (talk • contribs)
 * It is based on what Karen Gillan said in the linked interview, it is possible she got confused and meant Provence, we'll have to sort that out. magnius (talk) 20:12, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

It looks like Provence, but the church which figures in the episode is located in Auvers-sur-Oise, so either there's a mistake from the writers, or something I don't get. A lot of historical inacuracies in this one, but the church is defitively not in Arles (Provence, South of France). MidnightDays (talk) 22:51, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * It's fictional, lots of the historical/geographical details are wrong. AlexanderJBateman (talk) 22:54, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Doctor Who Confidential clearly says it is Provence. Also, the cafe terrace is in Arles It is a wonderful but inaccurate episode. Indeed some paintings shown in Provence were created after he left Provence for ever, starting of course with The Church at Auvers. However to write it in the article we need a source otherwise it would be considered as OR. Hektor (talk) 07:05, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * According to the SFX review, the Orsee museum is actually the Museum of Wales. Would be nice to be able to get a proper source for that.
 * This article mentions in passing, "Once again, Croatia is in chameleon mode, this time with the town of Trogir doubling up as Provence, 1890."--Pawnkingthree (talk) 18:10, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Timing
The length of this episode is "46 minutes 42 seconds". I corrected this and it was changed back to "45 minutes" because it was "too precise", I changed to "47 minutes" and it was changed back to "45". Can someone tell me where in the Wikipedia rules that inaccurate information is "correct" please?  BRIANTIST  (talk) 11:29, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Common sense dictates that we identify the "intended/target" length of the episode (as in, to distinguish it from the special 65-minute episodes, for instance), but providing the number of seconds is completely un-necessary and such a level of detail could not possibly be helpful to any reader. ╟─TreasuryTag► draftsman ─╢ 12:14, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, how is accurate information unhelpful to the reader? Please explain how making something deliberately wrong is correct.  That's not common sense, it is stupidity.   BRIANTIST   (talk) 15:00, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Repeating exactly the same question when you've been given an answer, and referring to a long-standing convention as "stupid" is not going to win you any credit round here. (And what Don said!) ╟─TreasuryTag► co-prince ─╢ 15:40, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Think of it as a class of episodes rather than the length of the episode. That is, 25-minute episodes vs 45-minute episodes vs 65-minut episodes.  In the States, the equivalents are 30-minute episodes, hour-long episodes and 90-minute episodes.  DonQuixote (talk) 15:33, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree, but both this episode and Cold Blood were/are given 50 minute slots in the TV schedule. Several episodes this year have stood around the 41/42 minute mark and have not been rounded down, so on balance I would be in favour of calling this a 50 minute episode. U-Mos (talk) 15:54, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd go with rounding it to 50 mins. I'd probably suggest that only 46 min episode are rounded down to 45. magnius (talk) 15:57, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm content with (though not entirely in favour of) rounding to the nearest five-minute mark, though I think that the over-precise approach Briantist advocates is not appropriate. ╟─TreasuryTag► Woolsack ─╢ 16:01, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Certainly say that seconds are best avoided, very hard to decide when to start and stop the clock, can lead to arguments over whether it was 47:42 or 47:43...pointless and needlessly accurate. magnius (talk) 16:04, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd just say list it as however long its slot in the schedules was. Talking of which, The Pandorica Opens is given 50 minutes as well. U-Mos (talk) 16:36, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Synesthesia
This episode seems to suggest that Van Gogh has synesthesia. He says 'I can hear the colours' and there is his mysterious ability to see the alien. Both suggest his senses were different, or rewired in some way. Sadly no discussion about this on Confidential. Reference anyone? Kayakboy (talk) 12:10, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * There are plenty of works covering this, for example Cretien van Campen's The Hidden Sense: Synesthesia in Art and Science - if any of this can be realistically incorporated into the article without resorting to OR is a different question however. AlexanderJBateman (talk) 18:14, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Action Line
Is it worth a mention in the article that this episode is (unless I'm much mistaken) the first ever to be deemed suitable for a BBC Action Line number being displayed at the end for those affected by its themes? U-Mos (talk) 12:43, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I personally think it's notable, but I've searched in vain for a mention of it in a reliable source.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 01:15, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

I think it is worth mentioning as that is the reason I came to this page as I wanted to know what it was as I don't watch that much BBC television. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.2.45.213 (talk) 08:19, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Image
I'm the first to admit I have absolutely no idea of what makes an image free-use or suitable for the article, but if there is someone on the look out for a shot to use in the infobox might I suggest the image of Vincent in his Arles bedroom at 17:40? If not that, any of representations of his art (the cafe, self-portrait held up beside Curran at the end, birds in cornfield), would allow the reader to see the episode's attempts at bringing Van Gogh's work to life. U-Mos (talk) 16:46, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I've added one of the self-portrait scene, think it's OK...! ╟─TreasuryTag► person of reasonable firmness ─╢ 10:18, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Bill Nighy Uncredited
He was uncredited in this episode, any reason that's not being recognised in this castlist? Sepmix (talk) 19:18, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * There's no need to clutter up the infobox. It could be mentioned in a cast notes section, however. U-Mos (talk) 21:09, 6 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Bill Nighy is an acclaimed actor. Why would he appear uncredited? Did he appear gratis? How does this work in Britain with their version of an actor's guild? Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 00:06, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Look of the page
The look of the page has been significantly modified with the images removed from the plot section and a gallery created. I'd like to discuss this because I don't think it is an improvement. Hektor (talk) 06:27, 9 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The images look better in the gallery you created, I like it keep up the good work Hektor! --Lerdthenerd (talk) 12:28, 9 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The original plot, in which the images would have fit well into, was way way too long. When the plot is trimmed (and the current length is probably still too long), there is no room for all the images, but it is very useful (and since free, allowable) to have those images presented in the context of this article.  That's what the gallery is for.  --M ASEM  (t) 12:57, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Greek Mythology
Something not mentioned so far is the references to the Medusa. The Krafayis can only be seen in a mirror (Van Gogh being the exception). Medusa was defeated only with her reflection. In the Musée d'Orsay doesn't the doctor imitate a statue of Perseus, the killer of the Medusa. Given the comment about Acardia (a Greek region) and that the end of season story is about the Pandorica (Pandora's box?) this story has a lot of Greek mythology influences. I am not sure if this could e put on the page given it is partly interpretation of a fan. But it seems pretty obvious references to the myth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.216.59.2 (talk) 22:40, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
 * That all falls under original research and would need to be backed up by very reliable sources before it could be added. magnius (talk) 22:48, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

We cannot be sure that was a normal mirror can we? It seemed to be a more intelligent reflective surface than that. An interesting comparison though!!! The tictoc monkey 14:52, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Soothing music
What's the soothing music the Doctor plays Vincent? Absurdtrousers (talk) 12:45, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Ultimate Ginger
I recently added an item to the continuity section about the references to ginger hair in this episode in particular the Doctor's comment that Amy and Vincent's baby would have been the "ultimate ginger". Now, anyone who has been watching the last few series of Doctor Who knows that there have been various comments about ginger hair. The Doctor has twice complained upon regeneration that he does not have ginger hair. There were also complaints after the last Christmas episode when the Doctor complained that he was not ginger and the BBC had to explain that this was him expressing disappointment.

I submit, therefore, that my edit was relevant (if not as well expressed as it could have been. The tictoc monkey  17:27, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Exhibit A: http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Showbiz-News/The-BBC-Receives-Complaints-After-New-Dr-Who-Makes-Ginger-Remarks/Article/201001115516230?f=rss The tictoc monkey 15:48, 16 June 2010 (UTC)


 * You're just reading way too much into it. Every mention of "ginger" doesn't have to be interconnected, just like every mention of "tea" doesn't have to be interconnected.  Yeah, sure, the Doctor wanted to be ginger at some point before he dies, but that has little relevance to Amy mentioning that her and van Gogh's kids would have had really red hair (which prompted the ultimate ginger comment from the Doctor).  So no, non-notable. DonQuixote (talk) 16:06, 16 June 2010 (UTC)


 * It may be non-notable but the reference to ginger hair had no connection to that episode. The way he said it made it clear that it was a reference to the other comments in the series about ginger hair. The tictoc monkey  07:33, 17 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, but what are you trying to say? Within the context of your first statement, "the other comments" refer to "[t]he Doctor has twice complained upon regeneration that he does not have ginger hair".  So, what do you mean by "that episode" of which none of this has any connection to? DonQuixote (talk) 14:36, 17 June 2010 (UTC)


 * To add a third voice, I too fail to see any notable significance in the lines regarding ginger hair. If you can find a very good and reliable source that states that the line was an intended reference to the previous comments to ginger hair, then maybe we can re-evaluate, but even then it is a question of whether it is really all that noteworthy.  magnius (talk) 14:58, 17 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I have accepted it is not noteworthy. I do not dispute that, that is a fair comment. It is, however, clearly another in a line of ginger comments both in and out of the show. And by "that epsiode" I meant the one about which this page is written (i.e. Vincent and the Doctor) - The ginger comment was odd and out of place in this episode alone - it was said in a way of an in-joke between friends and in a way that the audience was expected to understand. I agree that this cannot be put on the page without a source as it is original research but it is clearly true The tictoc monkey  12:42, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Vase with sunflowers image
I have the impression that Fair Use cannot be claimed since we have a free alternative and the alteration (addition of the words "For Amy") can easily be described in words. Hektor (talk) 20:11, 5 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I see what you're saying, but I don't agree that Image:Vincent_Willem_van_Gogh_128.jpg really is a sufficient free alternative, and I think that the Image:Foramy.jpg image is crucial to understanding the emotional weight of this episode in a way that is not easily conveyed by just describing the words on the vase. But I may be in the minority view here. Tim Pierce (talk) 13:03, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It is important to note that "For Amy" is added to the painting - no question - but the description, even to how exactly it was done, can be described with the original source and a couple lines of text, including exactly where the text was placed.  We've just avoided the additional piece of NFC media with free images and text. --M ASEM  (t) 13:07, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

. Hektor (talk) 15:42, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The version of vase with sunflowers which is now in the article is not the one which is shown in the episode. The correct one is this one.

The crack
Has anyone seen a published reference mentioning the shape of the crow being painted at the outset of the episode, or the shape of the tree branch near the end, both of which strikingly resemble the "crack" featured throughout the fifth series? --EncycloPetey (talk) 18:10, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Raggedy Man, Amy, the Doctor and Vincent
Just FYI: There is an interesting confluence here that I'm sure someone noticed, but I didn't see anything about it regarding the Write-Up of this episode.

The Don McLean song about Van Gogh, "Vincent (Starry Starry Night)," has a very interesting association with the Doctor. I'm not sure this was done on purpose by Steven Moffat and the Folks, but it's an amazing coincidence if it's an accident.

Amy calls the Doctor Raggedy Man... and there's an interesting line about "Ragged Men" in the Song:

''Starry, starry night Portraits hung in empty halls Frame less heads on nameless walls With eyes that watch the world and can't forget

Like the strangers that you've met The ragged men in ragged clothes The silver thorn of bloody rose Lie crushed and broken on the virgin snow'' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.103.38.222 (talk) 23:07, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Sorry about that. This was my post and I didn't have my sign-in/sing-in Details at home this weekend. albabe - <FONT COLOR="#FF0000">The Writer</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">/Artist </FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">Formally </FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000"> Known as</FONT> Al Gordon 17:28, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Writing news
Digital Spy reported that Curtis' key reason to write this episode was his love for his sister, who was a Van Gogh fan and took her own life: https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/a31981923/doctor-who-vincent-van-gogh-writer-explanation/ -- <small style="font-size:70%;">−αΣn=1NDi[n][Σj∈C{i}Fji[n − 1]+Fexti[(n^−1)] 13:13, 31 March 2020 (UTC)