Talk:Viola/Archive 2

POV
The second paragraph in the introduction seems to be too biased. It is true that violas are very underrated compared to practically all other string instruments and can have a beautiful sound that is vital for a group's overall sound. However, calling it the most versatile of string instruments is too easily contended with to be put in a wikipedia article. Could I get some feedback (no pun intended) on this? I am primarily a violinist, secondly a violist, so I am biased. I would appreciate any comments on the second paragraph. omnijohn 21:32, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


 * A cello is pretty versatile as well, in the right hands, just not so portable. That paragraph does seem a bit overdone, as well as POV. Just plain Bill 00:02, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I removed the defensive statement, including (perhaps mistakenly) this sentence:
 * In the right hands, it is capable of expressing both a mournful, penetrating melancholia and a dignified, joyous voice, singular and delightful in its restrained clarity.
 * I'm not sure if this sentence is really defensive. Frosty 12:24, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I've put it back. The part about being underrated is the part of the general impression. And I think we have a right to wax lyrical about the viola's tonal qualities in the viola article. :) Also, the next sentence wouldn't really follow if we removed it. --Quadalpha 14:21, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that the part about being underrated is not defensive -- it's merely a succinct reference to several facts: 1, the relative anonymity of the viola in "mainstream" culture: many people who would recognize the terms 'violin" "cello" and "double bass" or "string bass" do not know what a 'viola' is. 2) the lack of famous repertoire: many people who do know what it is perceive that it has less solo repertoire and of a lower quality than the other two instruments in the violin family (violin & cello), 3) the very fact that viola jokes are as prominent as they are among orchestral musicians -- more so than jokes for almost any other instrument... enough so that people feel the need to place a section about them in this article!, 4) the sad state of many youth or school orchestras where violists are few and far between, and where students play arrangements where the viola part has been reduced to nothing more than a section of "third violins", and this coupled with the lack of instruction for children on the viola (compared to the overwhelming number of young violinists and cellists -- which leads one to think that parents and teachers don't often choose or promote the viola as a suitable instrument to teach their young children: in short, they underrate it. J Lorraine 23:04, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I am primarily a violist and violinist! I am not biast and find extreme pleasure in playing both instruments. I think that as to whether the viola sounds better than the violin is really quite debateable. The viola has a beautiful, mellow sound and full-arm vibrato comes out really well in it. On the other hand, there is a limited supply of viola music and it is primarily a "background" sort of instrument. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Violawow (talk • contribs) 08:55, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Compared To
I have noticed that in many explanations of the viola and how to play it that consistently it is compared to the violin instead of just explaining what it is... We may need to work on that and just explain the viola for what it is and not what it is compared to the violin, if that makes any sense? :)Abby C. 17:46, 12 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aquamarine678 (talk • contribs)

I supose that explaining the viola for what it is would be alright... but I think that, as a lot of people know what a violin is like that it is kind of better to compare. :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Violawow (talk • contribs) 09:35, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Viola jokes
I apologize profusely for resurrecting a dead issue, but I do believe a mention somewhere within the article about viola jokes and their nature based on my personal experience. They're not incessant or poignant, but someone might crack a joke if the violas do something wrong every now and then during a rehearsal. There is, for lack of a better description, a comical pretend quasi-stigma against violists. That being said, I can guarantee, as a violinist and violist who has played both as an amateur and professionally, that viola jokes are part of the orchestra culture. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.208.211.164 (talk) 12:59, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

In Popular Music
The section about the viola in popular music seems a little amateurish. Firstly the mention of the 'avant garde' as commensurate with pop music. Pop music is, by definition, not avant garde. In fact the 'avant garde' article that it links to makes no mention of popular music in the 'music' section. This could easily be rectified.

The other thing that jars is this statement: "It is quite unusual though, to use individual string instruments in contemporary popular music." This seems to fly in the face of the fact that the guitar is by far the most popular instrument in pop music, followed, probably, by the piano. Both string instruments. This could very easily be improved, but when I tried to make an edit I was told it was corrected automatically. "ClueBot NG makes very few mistakes", it says. Worrying. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr Big Eichelhäher (talk • contribs) 19:32, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Point taken about the guitar. I just changed the text in question to say "bowed string instruments".


 * Pedantically speaking, while the piano is a chordophone, it is conventionally grouped with percussion, not string instruments. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 22:52, 22 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that. And I think of the piano as a percussion instrument, too. There are other querulous parts such as "It is usually the flute or rather the full orchestra appearing to be the favoured choice". Since when was the flute 'usually' the 'favoured choice' of pop music? Seems spurious. And upper strings being 'drowned out' must surely have been solved since the advent of amplification. I seem to recall string sections constantly hanging around Top of the Pops, particularly with balladeers. But I think I'll just walk away. All ze best. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr Big Eichelhäher (talk • contribs) 11:55, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I just clear-cut the last sentence with the "favoured choice" and "drowned out" malarkey in it. Not sure what to do with the avant-garde bit. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 15:24, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Vertical Viola
I am convinced that it is a mistake to give such prominence to upright violas. In an article about the viola you would expect to read about what 99.9% of violas are like. The upright bit is an interesting aside but should be where it has been moved several times, at or near the bottom of the article. There could be all sorts of other wacky violas too but none of them shoudl be right up near the top - that's just misleading. Nevilley —Preceding undated comment added 00:51, 20 February 2004 (UTC)


 * Hi Nevilley--I respectfully disagree with you on the issue of whether the vertical viola is "wacky". So would Yo-Yo Ma, who called his encounter with the instrument "an amazing experience".  But I do agree with you that the vertical viola should not be so prominent in the viola article.  It's particularly annoying that the current version, created by an anonymous editor, isn't even correct; Hutchins invented the vertical viola for purposes of tonal quality, not ease of playing.  I'll fix this soon when it looks like the coast is clear.  Opus33 04:01, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * Sorry, "wacky" was uncalled-for. I have no doubt it's a lovely instrument and I have the greatest respect for Yo-Yo Ma although I'm not sure what viola players generally would think about cellists poaching their way into the already sorely limited repertoire! But thanks, and yes it does need fixing to give this non-wacky, but rare, atypical and minority-flavoured instrument rather less prominence in the article than it currently enjoys. Nevilley 08:50, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I play the viola (the everyday type that falls under "99.9%). Now no matter how much I stick to the things I know and don't think much of musical varity, "Wacky" was not OK here. And I have the greatest respect for Yo-Yo Ma, who is the best cellist the world has ever seen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nevilley (talk • contribs) 08:48, 20 February 2004 (UTC)

in play the viola
and I think that violins suck because they are all so whiney and they look down on us when, more often than not, they are the ones that have the greatest amount of problems with their parts. is it just me, or do the violas seem to be more talented. people always say that it is because our music is easier, but when both instruments get the same part, it is the violin that seems to have more problems. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.58.225.222 (talk) 18:32, 16 June 2004 (UTC)


 * Alright, calm down! Don't take yourself seriously - all us viola players know that we are better than violinists and we just humour them with their little jokes... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fatboy06 (talk • contribs)  21:39, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Rosin
I think it may be a good idea to mention something about rosin... There is rosin sold as specifically for viola; perhaps someone could add something on the difference/ importance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ‎ 47.19.84.221 (talk) 20:26, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061017162129/http://www.josephcurtinstudios.com/news/strad/nov00/Erdesz_bio.htm to http://www.josephcurtinstudios.com/news/strad/nov00/Erdesz_bio.htm
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061017162129/http://www.josephcurtinstudios.com/news/strad/nov00/Erdesz_bio.htm to http://www.josephcurtinstudios.com/news/strad/nov00/Erdesz_bio.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061228071625/http://www.josephcurtinstudios.com/innovation/project_evia.htm to http://www.josephcurtinstudios.com/innovation/project_evia.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060823210842/http://www.americanviolasociety.org/JAVS%20Online/Summer%202003/Balling/Balling.htm to http://www.americanviolasociety.org/JAVS%20Online/Summer%202003/Balling/Balling.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060715001955/http://josephcurtinstudios.com/gallery/va_j4/top.htm to http://www.josephcurtinstudios.com/gallery/va_j4/top.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060923095342/http://theremin.music.uiowa.edu/MIS.viola.html to http://theremin.music.uiowa.edu/MIS.viola.html
 * Added tag to http://beethovenkoden.no/gahl.htm

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External links modified
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Viola alta
I am working on revising the article Lloyd Loar (the alterations currently on User:Jacqke/Lloyd Loar). One of Loar's important instruments that he performed with was the Viola alta. Is there a way the instrument could be made more prominent somewhere in this article so that I can point to it? I have several pictures of the instrument being played that I can upload to the wikimedia commons, if those would be of use.Jacqke (talk) 18:15, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Pronunciation
The article states that there is an alternate UK pronunciation of the instrument as vy-oh-la. Although I am American, I played viola for a year in an orchestra in England in the 1960s, and I never heard this pronunciation. Can a Brit help us here -- do folks in England every say vy-oh-la for the instrument? If not, that pronunciation possibility should be omitted.Ajrocke (talk) 13:54, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

Moving information from lead to content section
Would it be best to move this part from the lead to the Twentieth century and beyond section? It seems excessive to include this information in the beginning. Perhaps creating a list of well-known composers might help declutter this information.

""In the earlier part of the 20th century, more composers began to write for the viola, encouraged by the emergence of specialized soloists such as Lionel Tertis and William Primrose. English composers Arthur Bliss, York Bowen, Benjamin Dale, Frank Bridge, Benjamin Britten, Rebecca Clarke and Ralph Vaughan Williams all wrote substantial chamber and concert works. Many of these pieces were commissioned by, or written for Lionel Tertis. William Walton, Bohuslav Martinů, Toru Takemitsu, Tibor Serly, Alfred Schnittke, and Béla Bartók have written well-known viola concertos. Paul Hindemith, who was a violist, wrote a substantial amount of music for viola, including the concerto, "Der Schwanendreher". The concerti by Béla Bartók, Paul Hindemith, Carl Stamitz, Georg Philipp Telemann, and William Walton are considered major works of the viola repertoire."" Ikhan94 (talk) 23:52, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree; that part of the lead could stand to be trimmed, perhaps with the content adapted to fit under the "Twentieth century and beyond" heading. Just plain Bill (talk) 00:21, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Notable works paragraph in lead section
The last paragraph of the lead section now mentions some notable pieces and composers. Is that information too specific for the lead section? It might fit more appropriately under Section 5, "Music." Additionally, a lot of the claims for what are considered major works are uncited. While there are few publications concerning viola, there are many comprehensive biographies of the composers who wrote those pieces; those could be possible sources. Isabelle183 (talk) 03:06, 2 September 2021 (UTC)