Talk:Violence in ice hockey

Untitled
To whom it may concern -- using the wiki markup is preferred to using HTML. So to make a bullet list, use the asterisk, and to make a numbered list, use the hash sign. I think the "editing help" link will have the details. Hth, Wile E. Heresiarch 01:08, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Per vfd discussion (Votes for deletion/NHL Violence), I have renamed NHL violence to violence in ice hockey. (Someone else had already renamed from NHL Violence to NHL violence.) -- Wile E. Heresiarch 01:05, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Ace Bailey?
The on-ice incident that nearly killed Ace Bailey should be on here, although I don't know enough of the details to post it myself.


 * I quite agree; it's far and away the most famous single such incident in hockey history. I'm feeling lazy tonight, but if no one else posts it, I will.  Ravenswing 01:40, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Other Notables
--Probably a good idea to link to the legends of hockey site. I think Malarchuk having his jugular severed on ice was one of the closest and most graphic. The Bailey incident was a career ender. While relevant to violence in hockey, the 1933 incident is probably more recognized because it highlights the jurisdiction of the league and the use of their power to punish players for excessive use of force. I think there is a lack of balance here. The NHL renaming would be fine if the POV was balanced so no assumptions about death in that league were made ( Bill Masterton being the only player in the NHL to die from injuries received in a game). More recently the Bertuzzi incident was portrayed as one of the most violent attacks and the media coverage probably outstripped any previous incident. The AHL level Stafford and Perezhogin incident resulted in a season suspension for Alexander Perezhogin and illustrates the individual's role in violent attacks regardless of the rules or penalties and demonstrates that the scope of violence exists beyond the arm of the law or the rules of the game. The fact that intent to injure is a major penalty and an 'automatic suspension' indicates that the rules are in place. The fact that Joe Thornton was suspended for a weak hit against a former teammate very recently should notify anyone playing or watching that the league will not tolerate even mild attempts to injure.


 * The Malarchuk incident, while graphic, isn't an example of violence in ice hockey. That was an accident.

Merge?
Two articles about the same thing. Merge Kerowyn 09:21, 17 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Disagree. Two articles about different things. One concerns a condoned, if penalized, aspect of the sport, the other about an illegal and uncondoned aspect.  Ravenswing 11:48, 17 January 2006 (UTC)


 * But "Violence" and "Fighting" are synonyms. Both articles are about violence on the ice. I don't think someone is likely to go looking for the condoned aspect and the uncondoned. They should be in the same article for simplicity's sake. Kerowyn 03:04, 18 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Because they are two separate things, as the average hockey fan knows; you could just as readily decide that "offense" and "violation" are the same thing in hockey because they are likewise synonyms, and I am given to understand that Wikipedia's goal is to be informative, not to be simplistic. I appreciate that you're trying to clean up tags Wikiwide, but in the ten months since the tags were posted, out of the several dozen participants in the Ice Hockey Wikiproject, not one has spoken in favor of any such merge, let alone seek any manner of consensus for it.  The tags are best cleaned by removing them.  Ravenswing 06:45, 18 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I think we're quibbling with semantics here. I'm not trying to be simplistic, I'm trying to be sensible. I merged the article initially because no one cared enough to object. I think violence on the ice is the same whether it's condoned or not and it makes sense to address it all in one place. Kerowyn 22:30, 18 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Your opinion has been noted, and I think we can all agree that if you bring a consensus around to said opinion, a merger is appropriate. Ravenswing 18:03, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Biased article?
This article does not present a balanced point of view and clearly tries to make a case that violence in the NHL is both rampant and totally absurd. I am certainly not a proponent of violence in hockey but the article strikes me as biased. It is also factually incorrect, claiming that the NHL "is the only professional league that has a major players award for sportsmanship" which is blatantly incorrect (NBA, MLB, many soccer/football leagues). The death of Bill Masterton is presented as the result of "escalating violence" which as far as I know is not the case (he did die as a result of falling after contact but no serious harm was intended). Also the reference to death of fans is irrelevant (and simply part of the bias). Pascal.Tesson 23:29, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The death of Masterton is presented as no such thing; however, I agree that the reference and to that of the deaths of fans (of which there has been exactly one in league history, as a result of a puck clearing the glass) are misplaced and edited them out.


 * The information on the Lady Byng trophy is quite correct. Other sports have sportsmanship trophies, but only in the NHL is the trophy considered by the fans as being a significant trophy on a par with MVP, leading scorer and leading positional player awards.  How many of us can name off the top of our heads many past Byng award winners (Bucyk, Middleton, Ratelle, Richards, Gretzky, Francis, Sakic, Kariya, Bossy, Turgeon, Mullen, Kehoe, Mogilny, Mikita, Keon, Boucher, Goring, Goyette, Delvecchio, Kurri, Kelly, Quackenbush ... and that's just off the top of my head) compared with how terribly few of us could name any sportsmanship award winner from any other sport?


 * As far as the article as a whole goes, it is a notable controversy in the league and deserving of an article. I see both sides' arguments presented, but as it stands, professional ice hockey is the only team sport in North America where throwing punches does not result in immediate suspensions, and it's very tough in light of that to infer it isn't a big deal.  Ravenswing 14:37, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

No move. Duja ► 09:08, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Violence in ice hockey → List of violent incidents in ice hockey — the premise of the Violence in ice hockey article is far too similar to that of the Fighting in ice hockey article. We don't need both articles. Delete the body of the article, or merge it with Fighting in ice hockey. After we do that, only the listy stuff will remain, and we can rename the article. The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 12:54, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Survey

 * ''Add  * Support   or   * Oppose   on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~.

Oppose. I might as well cut and paste from my comments last year: Two articles about different things. One concerns a condoned, if penalized, aspect of the sport, the other about an illegal and uncondoned aspect. Ravenswing 21:32, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Oppose. I agree with Ravenswing. I have no great opposition to renaming the article to what you suggest, as this really is a list, however the lead section needs to remain as it offers context for the article. And it is most definitely different than Fighting in ice hockey, even if there is some crossover. Resolute 22:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

 * ''Add any additional comments:
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Panthers - Steelers
Something should be mentioned about the (in)famous bench clearing brawl between the Nottingham Panthers and Sheffield Steelers, if not here then maybe in Fighting in ice hockey Cryomaniac 00:52, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Unless there were any suspensions and/or fines it should be listed at Fighting in ice hockey, as you mentioned. Bsroiaadn 05:47, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Flyers-Senators
This article doesn't seem to mention the Flyers-Senators brawl on March 25, 2004. This resulted in 419 penalty minutes (213 for the Flyers), which are both sport records. Definitely notable enough for inclusion. Chubbles 04:16, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Only penalty minutes? Then it should be at Fighting in ice hockey, if anywhere. Bsroiaadn 05:48, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Longest Suspensions list
with a lot of the players on the list, if you access their articles it does not mention the suspensions. El hombre de haha 06:34, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Stanley Cup Brawl
Whatever the wikilink for the Stanley Cup Brawl of 1927 used to lead to...isn't there anymore. Does anyone know when it was there so we can link to it somehow? Just to clarify, I unwikified it before posting this, because it didn't lead anywhere. Bsroiaadn 05:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Illegal
The article uses the word illegal where it seems to mean "against the rules of the sport" rather than "against the law". Am I right? Could this be clarified and a better expression chosen? Jɪmp 04:11, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Sportsmanship Award
Removed the text "Some critics consider it telling that the NHL is the only professional hockey league that has a major players award for sportsmanship, the Lady Byng Memorial Trophy, which suggests to some a tacit admission of the need to encourage more civil play."

As far as I can ascertain, many other major sports have sporsmanship awards: NBA MLB NCAA

If the "critics" in the original sentence were identified, it might stand Cander0000 08:56, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That just sounds like a cheapshot at the game. All sports have players who prefer to bend / break rules.99.242.129.186 (talk) 22:28, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Oxymoron?
First line of second paragraph: "non-dangerous violence". Isn't that something of an oxymoron? 67.169.14.238 (talk) 04:20, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Chris Simon
I will not change it but I don't think Chris Simon had any charges/accusations against him and if it was the case it was certainly not for the Ruutu stomping incident but it would have been in connection with the Hollweg cross-checl, but I have not heard any charges for that too, so I suggest that we remove the Chris Simon case from the Incidents resulting in charges.-- JForget 01:52, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed, and done. Every time there is an incident such as that, people tend to put it in the wrong section. Resolute 02:53, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Entirely biased
This article looks like it was told from the point-of-view of a liberal trying to tell us why "peace is kool, man". 24.184.200.190 (talk) 05:20, 4 January 2010 (UTC)