Talk:Virginia Tech shooting/Archive 1

wrong timezone
EDT is UTC-4, not UTC-5

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.31.41.254 (talk) 18:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC).

uncorroborated amateur reports
a friend says this (at VA tech, i know it's not going to be posted to the wiki but figured you guys want to know :

As most of you know, Kevin his an EMT in Christiansburg/Blacksburg. Brian just called to say that 31 have been confirmed dead in todays shooting - the news is still reporting 21. Kevin was actually in the back of the ambulance with the shooter who was already dead, a 20 year old student who lived in AJ, shot and killed 2 people before the shooting occurred in Norris. There were over 60 people shot and inured or killed. The news is only reporting 21 but they found another classroom with 9 people dead inside.


 * Dear God... 60 shot!? Even assuming the gunmen was an AMAZING shot, he still must have fired well over 60 rounds, probably closer to 70-80. This is unbelievably awful! I am in total shock as to how someone can get off that many rounds without police intervention! I am so sad now. I hope your friend is wrong, I hope 21 is right, because that's bad enough! So sad! -- Ubergenius 18:26, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Gunman #
BBC World now reports that there was one gunman, and there were two separate attacks, the second in a classroom a couple of hours after the other. Please verify that there was only one gunman when a reliable source emerges from the current news chaos. Also, Jesus Christ. --Kizor 16:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

This page needs to be semi-protected, as spam is making its way into the article.AEMoreira042281 16:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It always does in these situations, it's removed in seconds. How serious is the problem at the moment? --Kizor 16:53, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Conflicting reports
We need this edit-blocked ASAP. I see way too many conflicting reports. -Domovoi 16:41, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * A massive influx of edits is ongoing, yes, if that's what you mean. This happened with the mall shootings, this lasted for *days* with the London bombings. It's pretty much unavoidable - established editors are getting drawn in in great number, not just new ones, and blocking the page entirely would be hugely counterproductive - and might even be benefical, as Wikipedia's reaction time rivals the fastest news outlets. --Kizor 16:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

22 capitalists in first line...wats that all about? SouthEastLad 16:42, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Already changedSouthEastLad 16:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * These things draw vandalism like flies. They also draw fly-swatters, if the analogy can take that. --Kizor 16:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

More casualties than columbine
- Columbine was 13 casualties - University of Texas at Austin in 1966, 15 fatalites. Charles Whitman was shooter from campus Bell Tower. - Fewer casualties than Bath shooting - Virginia Tech shooting is therefore deadliest campus shooting in US history.

I believe there were 12 casualties in Columbine, and in this one there is 20-22. Malamockq 16:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Nope, 13 at Columbine, not including the two shooters. RossyG 18:13, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes. The numbers are widely reported on news websites, and the BBC World TV broadcast agrees with you. --Kizor 16:49, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Hey Probaly we should call this the Blacksburg Massacre--Yowiki 17:49, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Problems
Someone needs to do something to this. It's been vandalized twice in, like, five minutes. --Wjmoore17 16:54, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * If nobody objects, I'm going to go ahead and semi-protect this article for the time being. --Wjmoore17 16:56, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you so much, it is amazing to watch PC Magazine advertisements appear after 22 people are dead.Verdafolio 16:58, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

CNN Screenies
I have CNN screen captures. Does it violate copyright laws to post them, or is it PD? Or does anyone care at the moment?PublicSecrecy 17:16, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it's fair use, but I for one don't really care right now. Be bold. --Kizor 17:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Not sure how to upload pics-- embed image? Formatting/image placement? I'd rather not mess up the article. Links to a couple of images:

Uploaded to Wikipedia but not in Article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:CNNvtechshootPicture_002.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Picture004ho3.jpg#file

Uploaded to Image shack
I release this to be used by anyone:

http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/4268/picture004ho3.jpg PublicSecrecy 17:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Campus Maps
Campus Maps are available in PDF format here: http://www.vt.edu/where_we_are/maps/

Title change
perhaps this page should be called the Virginia Tech Massacre, instead of the 2007 Virginia Tech Schooting, to be consistent with the format of the Columbine Massacre article.
 * Generally we go for the most common name. As this is a recent event, it's best to go with shooting until a common name is established. Nil Einne 17:05, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * (thrice conflicted) "Columbine Massacre" is an established expression. Since no such things exists for this event at the moment, shooting seems like a workable name. Check back in a few days. --Kizor 17:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Naw see a shooting is like three-four people tops this is a fucking massacre
 * There's no established definition, is there? What is called a massacre is a massacre. --Kizor 18:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Comparisons to Columbine, Bath, etc.
I don't think these specifics should be part of the entry's lede.
 * You may be right. It's integral information, but putting them there is perhaps permature. They're now at the bottom. --Kizor 17:11, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Asian-American student
The article claims that the shooter was reported by Fox News to be Asian-American. In the actual Fox News article, the student is only described as "Asian". If the student is Asian and is only in the US on a student visa, then he is not "Asian-American". This description should be edited until the shooter is identified.64.35.225.1 17:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Word. We should stick strictly to the sources. Editing, if I can. --Kizor 17:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Only one source says the gunman is asian.. and of all sources Fox News. Hmph...


 * What does the source being Fox News have to do with anything? --Ali&#39;i 17:15, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Fox is known to be rightwing and biased. And I'm not even from the US. --Soetermans 17:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * What he said - though they probably wouldn't do that, they wouldn't get away with that. (Incidentally, a survivor just described the situation on BBC World as "absolute suck." Despite everything, I couldn't help but laugh.) --Kizor 17:19, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Fox News is still a reliable source though. And what would identifying someone's race have to do anything with politics?!?! You are confusing two issues. The edit to remove this  is ridiculous. There is a source right there. It's in the article. It is attributable. To remove it on some other basis is absurd. However, if you want to remove it on the basis of non-notability, that's a different story. --Ali&#39;i 17:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed. However, I'd keep it out for now based on the quote saying "According to one person..." --Elliskev 17:31, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, that's a much better reason than simply because it was from Fox News, or "not sourced" (which it was... attributable, not truthified). --Ali&#39;i 17:52, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I saw some photos of someone who looked like they were Asian being arrested. As it appears the shooter is dead, this was probably not the shooter and therefore may be a source of confusion. As such, it'll probably be best to leave it out until there is a better source. Remember this is wikipedia not wikinews. We don't 'report' every single rumour that appears in the media Nil Einne 17:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The photo of the Asian student being cuffed is being reported by Fox News as a reporter for the School newspaper who was 'questioning too vigoriously'. Verdafolio 18:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Here are two images of the Asian student being arrested (sadly, taken from FOX news). Does anyone have a source indicating why he is being detained?  I hope that they are not out arresting every Asian kid on campus, as bad as this situation is, I would hate to see a backlash against Asian students, by either the police, the administration or the student community.  fsu23phd 18:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC) http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/photoessay_1642_images/0416071259_M_041607_shooting1.jpg  http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/photoessay_1642_images/0416071259_M_041607_shooting3.jpg

MSNBC reported the shooter as an Asian American, college aged, wearing a maroon hat and black coat.DragonFireKai 17:56, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Execution style
I don't see this in the source. --Elliskev 17:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Good point, and I don't remember hearing it when watching Fox News.Verdafolio 17:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Also cited in MSNBC, he aparently lined them up in the hallway in Norris, asked about his girlfriend, if they didn't know, he executed themDragonFireKai 17:57, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Minor correction
The shooting was the deadliest college campus shooting in U.S. history, not the deadliest school shooting. RyzinEnagy 17:18, 16 April 2007 (UTC)RyzinEnagy
 * That was what I wrote. I'll check if it has been skewed. --Kizor 17:19, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It had. Fixed. Thanks. --Kizor 17:20, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

9mm Handgun
I heard the 9mm Handgun on the CNN news broadcast and I think Fox News is reporting it too. Also a first person report seems to confirm the use of a handgun. Can anyone get a print report of it? Verdafolio 17:24, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

1927 Bath disaster dispute
This event is the deadliest school-related shooting in US history, but is not the deadliest school-related disaster, which was the 1927 Bath School disaster. In the first paragraph I have added that it is the "deadliest shooting is US history", which is correct, but in later paragraphs there is mention of the 1999 Columbine shootings and the 1927 Bath disaster, and it can become confusing and conflicting to note that this 2007 incident is the deadliest "shooting" at the intro, but later state it is second to the 1927 disaster as the deadliest "school incident". I think we should remove the second reference. — John Stattic 17:28, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Now I see what you mean. Sorry for the mix-up. RyzinEnagy 17:36, 16 April 2007 (UTC)RyzinEnagy

The news say that the VT one is the deadliest. I'm pretty sure they forgot about Bath, or have no idea what it is.--71.246.252.5 17:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what news reports you're listening to, but most I've heard have said it's the deadliest school/campus shooting in U.S. history which is correct. As discussed above, Bath was not a shooting Nil Einne 18:03, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Page move
Are we not pre-empting the media by declaring this a "massacre" before it has been done so? --HappyCamper 17:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, also, discussed above... Moved back until consensus (either here at WP, or in the media) is reached on a name. --Ali&#39;i 17:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Moved back as well. Please discuss page moves before effecting them. I think there's a specific move-block if this keeps happening. --Kizor 17:36, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. However, we need an admin to move the talk page back as well. Search  4  Lancer  17:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Another administrator beat me to it. Pagmoves have been locked now. --HappyCamper 17:38, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I have no preference for name, but Google news search... --Elliskev 17:38, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * That's 42 items there. Compare with the other term, and there are 2,000. But this may change of course. --HappyCamper 17:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree. Just pointing out that it is making its way into headlines - that's all... --Elliskev 17:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

NOte to admins: could someone please move the talk page to match the article? With all of the moves, they are now out of sync. Thanks. --Ckatz chat spy  17:41, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It appears to have been fixed. Let me know if you need me to wade through and kill some redirects. alphachimp  17:46, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I've seen the word "rampage" on both CNN.com and MSNBC.com. Agree should wait and discuss User:elg26 17:51, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

School closings weather related
The school closings are due to high winds that are a danger to classes held in trailers. Nothing to do with the shootings in Blacksburg. Wiredog 17:31, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the information, but we would need a link to a reliable news source attesting that to confirm. Can you provide one? --Kizor 17:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I think we should ask for a reference for the closures first. Preferably one that links the two events Nil Einne 17:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * CNN made fleeting mention of weather, but they said that all schools were on lockdown, and that the University is closed today. They said it would be open tomorrow, but that there would be no classes. And that's the extent of their details. PublicSecrecy 17:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * From The Washington Post, on ther weather closings:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/16/AR2007041600351.html?hpid=topnews Wiredog 17:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * That's from Northern Virginia, we're in Southwestern Virginia here in Blacksburg. Classes were not cancelled otherwise the classrooms wouldn't have been shot up.  The weather is bad here, but the wind is nothing to cancel class over.  In fact, the last time Tech had cancelled classes it was over the Morva shootings.  They haven't cancelled for weather in some time.-- J UDE  talk 18:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Virginia Tech is definitely not closed because of the weather, but the primary schools in Montgomery County are closed due to weather. 204.154.43.244 18:20, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh okay thank you for clearing it up! I don't really have any ties with primary schools.-- J UDE  talk 18:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

AJ floor
According to witness, shooting was on fourth floor of AJ (ambler johnson). http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3045605 Might be relevant in relation to those jumping from a window.
 * Might be. I think we need a bit more data, since they panicked they could've been below (or, Heaven help, above) the events. --Kizor 17:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * And I don't think it was in AJ that they jumped... 204.154.43.244 17:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Referance
An additional reference in case it's needed for updates Roanoke Times Kmusser 17:33, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Massacre not shooting
This is a school massacre so the article title should be 2007 Virginia Tech Massacre not 2007 Virginia Tech Shooting. EnviroGranny 17:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Please discuss above: --Ali&#39;i 17:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't have an opinion on this, but it is extremely disruptive to move a main page featured article without consensus. I've protected this page. If you do wish to move the article to another name, I'd suggest gathering some sort of consensus here first. alphachimp  17:40, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

This is the worst school shooting in US history; therefore, it qualifies based on the facts as a school massacre. We don't need a journalist to say "Massacre" to use the term, this is an encyclopedia, based on facts. EnviroGranny 17:54, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * You might want to read up on wikipedia policy on namings first Nil Einne 17:58, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Read the Wikipedia definition of school massacre '"A school massacre is an incident of violence at a school involving at least one actual death."' EnviroGranny 18:09, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Talk page redirects are a mess
... and I don't have time at the moment to sort them out. Could someone fix? --Yksin 17:42, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

29 killed?
Where is attributed from ? User:elg26 17:40, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * ABC news had it I think --Wafulz 17:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

1927 Bath disaster dispute
This event is the deadliest school-related shooting in US history, but is not the deadliest school-related disaster, which was the 1927 Bath School disaster. In the first paragraph I have added that it is the "deadliest shooting is US history", which is correct, but in later paragraphs there is mention of the 1999 Columbine shootings and the 1927 Bath disaster, and it can become confusing and conflicting to note that this 2007 incident is the deadliest "shooting" at the intro, but later state it is second to the 1927 disaster as the deadliest "school incident". I think we should remove the second reference. — John Stattic 17:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I noticed this an changed the top part at least twice after it was removed or modified by editors who thought the Bath School disaster was a shooting. I put a hidden comment to try and avoid this repeating Nil Einne 17:51, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Nil. It will probably settle now. --Kizor 18:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

32 dead?
Somone needs to fix the references. The Latest one is mislabeled and states that there are 29 dead when the article says there are 32. Blakwyte 17:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Fox News reported 32 dead a few minutes ago. I don't know if there's an internet source to confirm that though.  --musicpvm 17:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Fox News cited federal sources demonstrating that 32 were killed. Stanley011 17:51, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

But as long as ABC News is refered to, the labeling of footnote #2 should be corrected from "CNN" to "ABC News". --

Fox says there are at least 32 shot. Unless we can have a better source that FOX, I'm sticking with 21, that's what CNN, ABC et al. are saying. Witty lama 17:56, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

No reference to the 32 number on an article page, but it's listed on the main fox news site: http://www.foxnews.com/ T r u s t   (T) @ (C) 17:56, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

As long as we have conflicting reports on the number, I think we should go with "at least (the lowest number reported by a reliable source)." Chunky Rice 17:56, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Something to the effect of "at least 21, with reports as high as 32"? T r u s t   (T) @ (C) 17:58, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good to me.Chunky Rice 18:00, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Whatever happens, when the numbers change, change the sources. Otherwise, the change will probably be reverted. If you change the numbers, it is your responsibiliuty to provide a reliable source demonstrating the change. I ran into this problem at the va tech article too. The numbers kept increasing, but the source still pointed to cnn saying 22. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 18:00, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * CNN is obviously behind. ITS 32 dead I dont' see why this is even an issue. Its amazing how big some of your ego's can be insuch a tragic situation.67.133.212.21 18:15, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

msnbc just announced 31 dead confirmed71.205.216.122 18:28, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Apologies
I appear to have accidently reverted some edits due to an edit conflict I somehow missed. Apologies to all editors. Nil Einne 17:49, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't worry about it - stuff like that happens in the initial chaos, no lasting harm done. --Kizor 17:56, 16 April 2007 (UTC)