Talk:Virtual Magic Kingdom/Archive

Tours
Brian, you might want to review the following statement:

Previously the tour was awarded after completing only the Adventureland, Fantasyland, and Frontierland quests, but shortly after the introduction of the Tomorrowland quest, that one became required as well.

I cannot believe that the Tomorrowland quest is required, do to the fact that a person introduced into VMK at the park, would not have access to the Tomorrowland quest. Also, many people, on the website www.vmkingdom.com, speak of only needing three of the quests to be eligible for the tour. I unfortunately have not been able to return to Disneyland after the introduction of the Tomorrowland quest to verify in person that it is required. - User:Panzaer 07:12, 16 August, 2005 (PST))


 * I've gotten lots of different answers to this question. I went to the VMK counter on two separate occasions and asked; once I was told "any three quests", the other time I was told "only the original three quests". Online people insist to me they were told "all four quests are required." It looks like nobody's clear on the exact rules - including the castmembers - so I documented this in the article. - Brian Kendig 02:08, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Codes
I honestly don't think the secret codes should be publicly available like this. People are meant to earn them, not go on Wikipedia to see what they are. --Evanwohrman July 6, 2005 06:39 (UTC)

Ordinarily I'd agree with you, but the codes are all over the web, and I've seen them posted prominently on VMK fan sites; a simple web search can turn them up. So I don't think it would serve any purpose to censor them here. - Brian Kendig 00:44, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Brian, I totally agree with you on the Multi-Use codes. If the codes were not prevalent everywhere, I’d say remove them. But seeing as they are, why not provide them in an accurate, concise location. - [ Also, I apologize for not documenting the addition of the (3/5 retro) pin listing the other day. I just found wikipedia and have not become completely accustomed to the procedures yet. - User:Panzaer 22:06, 07 August, 2005 (PST))

"Corrections"
I want to make a few things clear about some of the inaccurate "corrections" people have been making to this article.


 * First off, stop deleting the multiple-use codes. Wikipedia does not censor information like this. The codes are available all over the place online, and are easily found in a Google search; I see no reason not to list them here.
 * The VIP tour is awarded after completion of the Adventureland, Fantasyland, and Frontierland quests. The Tomorrowland quest has nothing to do with it. Stop saying "after all four quests" or "after all quests". Okay, I admit I was wrong here - they changed this recently. I'll correct the article. - Brian Kendig 17:24, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Regarding the Magic Carpet pin, stop saying "Coming soon!" It makes the article sound like a movie commercial. We don't *know* whether it's coming soon, there's been no official announcement, so all we can say is that it's not available now and there are rumors that it will soon be available.
 * The VMK Insider Tour, to the best of my knowledge, consistently says that Tomorrowland and Frontierland will be available "in December". Not "around The Holidays (presumably around the time of Halloween-Thanksgiving-Channukah-Christmas)", not "this Winter", but December. If another source is giving different information, please reference it.

- Brian Kendig 15:08, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Also: there is no such thing as "the Jungle Cruise quest". The Jungle Cruise is part of the VMK Insider Tour, and cards are given out for trivia questions during it, but it is not a quest; there is no quest card for it nor are there things to search for in it. - Brian Kendig 21:13, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Money - Motivation
This article could use some "why did Disney do this project" action. SchmuckyTheCat 15:44, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


 * They haven't said, and any guesses would be pure speculation. - Brian Kendig 17:31, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Page Protection
Hey everyone, I'd like to alert you to the fact that I protected this page for now, due to the current edit war. Please try to settle your differences here on this talk page, and remember that we all share the common goal of making Wikipedia the best encyclopedia in the world. :) Once the differences are settled, list the page on WP:RFPP for unprotection (or let me know), and it'll be unprotected again. Thanks! -- Schnee (cheeks clone) 16:48, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I appreciate your effort to resolve the edit war, but I think protecting the page wasn't the right decision - it's punishing people who want to make positive edits to the page, and I don't think it'll have any effect on MagicKnight. He's a new Wikipedia user who doesn't understand the concept of collaborative editing, and he'll just continue his reverts after the page is unprotected. I'm going to list this page on RFPP and ask that it be unprotected, and I'll continue trying to resolve the issue with MagicKnight in other ways. - Brian Kendig 17:34, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I've just unprotected it. From the history checks I made this morning and now I don't see that PP is currently justified. Should the problem suddenly get 'out of control' however it will be reconsidered (although present history doesn't suggest that it has done so as yet at any time). --Vamp:Willow 17:47, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Foxmagic since asked for page unprotection, so that's OK with me. I don't think that protection was unjustified, but if he thinks that the whole thing can be resolved without it, then that's fine, too. -- Schnee (cheeks clone) 18:19, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


 * apols for not removing the tag - phone rang part-way through dealing and just got off it --Vamp:Willow 18:28, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Hi
I wanted to discuss this with you, but I did not know how to respond here. Yes I am new, but am a very informed individual on VMK. The edits I have done are 100% accurate. Pirate Prison was just awarded to several players recently, the room is coming soon (i.e. within a few weeks). Flying Carpet Pin is also coming soon. I don't see why you continue to edit this information out. My information on costumes was sufficient, I have since organized the format by items sold individually. I don't know what else to say, I have capitulated on the "codes" dispute however "coming soon" I will stand firm on. I also disagree on the "yavn" section, it's just outlandish. yavn has never give absolutely anyone anything that is not available in the game. All of the new costumes are shown, but never given away. We don't need multiple players chasing after yavn for free stuff either. Leave it be! Thank you!


 * Thank you for being open to discussion, MagicKnight! Let me address a few specific issues:


 * Saying that something is "coming soon" does not provide any useful information. Soon as in next weekend, or next month, or the beginning of next year? And where did you get this information; was it published somewhere? (Attribute your sources.) Also, what do you mean by "TBD" that you keep putting in the Pirate Prison description - usually that means "to be decided"; how does that make sense in this context?


 * Why do you keep deleting the more descriptive explanations? You keep replacing This pin is not yet available to players, but its effects can be tried in the Spell Room in Fantasyland. with Coming Soon! and replacing A pirate ship room has been seen, and according to a VMK object list circulated online it will be named Pirate Prison, but this room is not yet available to players. with TBD. Is there something inaccurate about the explanations you've been deleting?


 * The costumes section that you keep reverting back to is subjective and not encyclopedic - I don't find the costumes to be "fun" or "exciting" at all, and your wording (exclusively available during special events for a limited time only) sounds a little advertisingish.


 * The edits you made to some item names were not accurate. For example, it's "Baseball Cap" not "Baseball Cap (Pink)", there's no "(Orange)" in any of the Mission Space Suit items, and the six prize cards do not have any color names on them. I understand you're trying to provide more descriptive names for the items, but the names you're giving aren't the real ones the game uses.


 * Thank you for finally explaining your problem with the yavn section, so that we can work that out. I've seen non-staff members wearing costumes that aren't available in the game, and there are snapshots of them up on lots of VMK fan sites. yavn has been known to grant Cursed Storm to people who couldn't use the code for it, and he's given out some of the Tomorrowland pins and Jungle Cruise animal pins before they were available. I feel it's unusual for a game developer to give away rare prizes like this within his game, and that's why I feel it's important to mention in the article.


 * Finally: don't say Leave it be! This is Wikipedia. Get used to lots of people editing your stuff. :-) It's nothing personal; it's all about people trying to make the article as accurate and as unbiased as it can be. I'm glad you're here editing - you've made lots of good corrections to the article.


 * - Brian Kendig 18:55, 1 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I think he might have meant TBA. :) --Lyght 23:35, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

How do reply? I don't know what to do!


 * You're doing fine! Just type your reply under what other people type, just like you've done twice so far. The only change I'd recommend is to sign your comments - just put four tildes in a row, like ~, and it'll make your name and the date appear automatically, like this. Brian Kendig 00:12, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Thank you Brian! I was just confused for a moment. Let me try to address some of your comments:


 * "Coming Soon" is the officialy terminology used throughout the kingdom, therefore I felt it would be appropriate to use it here. It could mean next week, month or even next year however that's the point of the statement. We know it's coming and soon, but not sure when! I understand that the flying carpet effects can be tried at the Spell Room, however the effects of all magic (except Pirate Powers) can also be sampled there. Unless you wish to add this note of information to all of the magic pins? I meant to say "TBA" and not "TBD," that was my own error.


 * On Costumes, that's fine, we can use your wording. I have no problem with that, I just wanted to make it sound exciting. The costumes do appeal to everyone and are in demand. However we can stick to your "encyclopedic" comments instead.


 * The color designation was added, because we know that there are several color variants for the baseball cap, etc. I was only preparing for the future, but can see your point and it is well taken. I did feel the color information was important enough to add it, however if you so strongly disagree, I won't pursue the matter any further.


 * On yavn, yes he is the developer however you are very ill-informed on him. The "regular players" you see with new unreleased pins and costumes, are actually part of his team. They are testers and work directly for yavn. There was a code mix-up with Cursed Storm Magic, and yavn had manually credited that pin to a players inventory if they made him aware of the issue. However this was done after the pin was widely available to the public and not before. Not a single user was ever issued a pin in advanced of the general public, with the exception of the "Jungle Cruise Lounging Lion Pin." That pin was available during the "Pin Trading Special Event," by trading staff a pin of your own for one. However this pin is surely to be available to all in the coming weeks, along with the Hyena Pin.


 * On "Leave it be!" It was not intended to be ill-mannered, and I fully understand Wikipedia. It's a concerted effort to provide accurate information. I hope this clears this up. Let's work together and be fair. I will do my part and respect your editing, and be reasonable with any changes. However I do believe that "TBA" is valid information and intend to edit it in along with some other changes. Thank you MagicKnight 02:28, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm glad we can discuss this! Let me make a couple of comments on your most recent edits.


 * I'm always in favor of spelling things out clearly in articles. For the prize cards which aren't available at either park, I feel that saying "MK: n/a" isn't as clear as saying "not available at MK". Similarly for saying "TBD" or "TBA" about the Pirate Prison room; that doesn't tell a reader anything, and the acronym might not even make sense to him. And "Coming Soon!" doesn't convey as much information as what you replaced with it.


 * I'm going to reinstate the section on yavn - he's too important an aspect of the game's fandom to leave out - but I'll edit it to work in your information.


 * There are lots of color variants for lots of items in the game database, but I don't see a need to acknowledge any which haven't ever been available or seen in the game. If confusion someday arises between differently-colored objects with the same name, then we can see about how to best clear that up.


 * I appreciate your edits with details about the pricing and availability of the pins - those are hard to keep track of! I'm wondering if perhaps in the future some of this level of detail should be removed, as it's really not all that necessary. What do you think?


 * What involvement do you have with the game? Are you one of the developers, or do you know any of them on a personal basis, or do you talk with them regularly in the game?

- Brian Kendig 04:31, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Thank you again Brian! I do agree with your points and will remember them when I make any edits in the future. Specifically about the colors and "MK: n/a." With regard to the "yavn" section, I will see what information you put on there. There is no definitive information on him, as much of it is hearsay therefore I didn't see a need to have the section however perhaps it can work. Disneyland 5/9 pin is not available via any quest, and is exclusively available to those players that create an account at Disneyland. On the pin pricing, I do agree and so feel free to delete the pricing out. It does seem cluttered! I hope you'll agree with my seperation of the magic pins, based on where they can be tried out at. I would like to thank you for your diligent effort! MagicKnight 05:15, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

I am really thrilled we've been able to come to an agreement on this article. :) And it's better with your help! I hope you continue to share more of your knowledge in other articles; and always remember, communication is key, and there are lots of people who can answer any questions you've got! - Brian Kendig 21:09, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Thank you! I'm not sure how we should handle this, however I did create a new "Special Edition Pins" section. I'm sure you'll agree, it is an important enough to have it's own section. While the Tomorrowland Pins are also "numbered," I feel they are more special and belong with the other special limited release pins. We have the Jungle Cruise pins, the new Hong Kong Set and a Haunted Mansion Pin Set of 5 coming. What do you think? Feel free to modify as you see fit. MagicKnight 21:41, 4 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Two Quick Notes and One Question ***

Quick Notes 1) The Hong Kong Main Street Pin is still available in the Emporium under the Pins category at its original price of 250 credits. I do not believe it is considered a limited pin anymore.  This may once again alter after the September 12th opening of Hong Kong Disney.

2) The Truckers Hat is also currently available from the Clothing shop under the Hats category at its original price.

I did not want to make corrections to these items without discussing them with you first.

One Question I am still very new to Wikipedia. How do you start a new section like "Corrections or Hi"? Panzaer 05:57, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Hi Panzaer, click the "+" near the 'Discussion' tab at the top to start your own topic. The HKDL Main Street Pin, was only available for the weekend, being Monday was a holiday it was still there. However it's still considered a "limited release." The hat and explorer's are still available and therefore I have split that section into two, to designate N/A and available items. Thank you for pointing that out MagicKnight 12:10, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Card Sets
Due to the redecoration of the Haunted Mansion in Disneyland, Series 2 Trading Cards have now become available. The Haunted Mansion Quest has "temporarily" been replaced with a Pirates of the Carribean Quest.

Some of the new (Series 2) quest items are:
 * 4/30 Flaming Ransacked Window
 * 5/30 Crow's Nest Barstool
 * 6/30 Seagull's Nest Pirate Hat
 * 7/30 Pirate Treasure Rug
 * 8/30 Captain's Quarters Couch
 * 9/30 Pirate Insider Tour Pin

I have added a SERIES 2 section to include these cards on the article Panzaer 17:53, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Speculation
Just to clarify something: Wikipedia is a place to report on verifiable facts, preferably with references. Speculation - generally, anything that involves "Some people expect that ..." - does not belong here. With VMK in particular, there have been a great many rumors which have been proven wrong (for example, "The blue princess dress will be out at the next event"), so they hold even less weight here. We know there's a blue princess dress in the database and we can assume it may become available in the future, but this isn't a certainty.

If a costume or a room has been spotted in the game, being shown off by yavn or one of his friends, that's a verifiable fact that can go into the article. If this is the case, then it would also help to provide a reference (such as a link to a screenshot of it).

Just now I removed the mention of the Toy Story outfits, the Stitch outfit, and the Tomorrowland Space Mountain room. I've never seen nor heard of these, nor do I see any mention of them in the database. Can you provide any hard evidence as to their existence? - Brian Kendig 11:06, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Edits
electric just stop it already. i must agree that you are a major control freak on this article. yes some people crashed but i dont think this information is needed in the article. some didnt crash i didnt crash. so it comes to a point where who wins? stop being a baby and use your own advice and work together. instead of creating a topic as i am doing you insist on reverting back to YOUR version. enough is enough already. i will not agree with you this time and usually support your reverts. sorry lime 64.12.116.139 09:27, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Problems with the game
The reason why I feel it's important to mention the problems VMK has had with events is that the game has terrible public relations - according to several polls I've seen on VMK message boards, hardly anyone has ever received a response from Disney after reporting a problem. When someone's been the victim of a scam and reported it to the online admins, they tell the person to report it on the web site; and when the person reports it on the web site, they never get a reply. The events have been rather dismal failures, with more complaints than congratulations on the message boards, and the server has become overloaded on multiple occasions when people have tried to get online to win a prize. I am not saying that everyone has had these problems - I'm only saying that a significant number of people have had these problems, as witnessed from the message boards. I feel it's important to cover this aspect of the game in the article. - Brian Kendig 09:29, 13 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, in regards to the disputed edit I'd try to cut down the text a bit. Also "large number" is POV :). Ryan Norton T 21:12, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

PROTECTED
This is protected for a while for the edit war- as the aol ip that just reverted is most likely MagicKnight (whom I just blocked for 3RR) based on the edit. PLEASE discuss this people! Ryan Norton T 09:33, 13 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Actually, for the record, I believe that 64.12.116.139 is someone different - I don't know who it is, but the person refers to me by my VMK name ("ElectricLime") and has a much different tone than MagicKnight has had. I'm willing to go with consensus on this article, and that's why I solicited third opinions. I appreciate your calm mind, RN! - Brian Kendig 09:40, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm just here to administrate :). I'll unprotect tomarro when I'm awake... in the mean time try to reach a comprise people rather then just blanking stuff mmmk? Ryan Norton T 09:44, 13 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I feel the need to point out that this talk page and User talk:MagicKnight are full of my efforts to discuss this article, and that I'm the one who submitted it for peer review as well as a third opinion in an effort to get a larger number of opinions on it. Each time MagicKnight has insisted on reverting any changes to his edits, I've been following the rules for conflict resolution. - Brian Kendig 10:09, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Yea I know some users like that can be difficult. Hopefully the 3RR/protection will encourage discussion. Try keeping yourself to two reverts a page and/or userfying if it becomes a real problem to keep the stress down :). Ryan Norton T 11:10, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

OK, its unprotected now :). I don't see any discussion here from the other party, which is disappointing, though. Ryan Norton T 20:57, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm so sorry, I thought I was banned for 24 hours for the 3RR edits. I'm new, so not totally sure on everything yet. I appreciate the information, and I do agree with the revised information. Initially it was too broad and sounded negative. It's one opinion what is "a large number" of players, as the exact information is not publicly known. So after carefully reviewing the current edit, I will compromise that it's reasonable to leave the information in the article. Thank you MagicKnight 00:54, 15 October 2005 (UTC)


 * And that's what Wikipedia is all about - it's not "my edit" versus "your edit", it's a matter of finding a way to state information fairly. And I don't believe it has to involve compromise, either; it's all about what's best for the article, and most useful for the people who read it. That's why I want edits to have feedback - the more opinions there are, the more neutral an article can become, while remaining factual. All I want from you is to discuss issues here in Talk, rather than doing a blanket-revert each time you disagree with something. This is also why I think you'd benefit from exposure to other articles as much as Wikipedia would benefit from your help; I think it'd be useful for you to see how other disputes are handled. Keep fighting for fairness and keep the lines of communication open! - Brian Kendig 16:45, 15 October 2005 (UTC)


 * It seems that you have reconciled your views, or are in the process of doing so. Is the article's item at Third opinion now unnecessary and safe to remove? Aapo Laitinen 21:37, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Long-Term!
Brian, I completely agree with you on the long-term comment. Weekly changes are not really needed for this article, since it's more of a long-term informational source. Daily changes are reported on the myriad of fan sites and the official site. Perhaps we can limit the updates until after the event is closed, and then do a final edit with the new information. I do not believe fans visit consider this article to be the infinite and up to the minute source of information instead it's more of a general and long-term source for people. MagicKnight 00:20, 25 October 2005 (UTC)


 * That sounds good to me! Would you like to take a stab at it after the 31st, when things settle down a bit? - Brian Kendig 17:50, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Sure, I'll do an update on 1 November. MagicKnight 18:48, 30 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I did the update and made some other changes. See what you think, however I do think the current Games area looks better. I didn't have to time to reword the descriptions, let me know what you think. Thanks, MagicKnight 07:06, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Costume
I much prefer the previous format, it's more aesthetically pleasing. In the future, please discuss such major changes to the article before you implement them. The information is important, as most of these items are sold individually. Should we make the article more concise by eliminating all additional details?! The information is needed in my opinion and therefore I have edited the details back in. Perhaps we can develop a more organized format (i.e. "Mission Space Suit (Helmet, Vest, Pants, Shoes)." I'm sure we can figure something out. MagicKnight 09:22, 13 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I'd really prefer not to have every item listed out individually - there are just getting to be far too many of them, and IMHO this article is beginning to get mired down in the details. Also, listing every individual item keeps encouraging people to update the section every couple of days to reflect that items will soon be (or are no longer) on sale. I'm actually starting to think that we should make the article more concise by eliminating details that don't really have any bearing on gameplay: for example, keep the info about magic pins and pin prizes, but eliminate the lists of "numbered pins" and "pin series" and their store locations and costs, because that's getting too cumbersome to keep track of. Or else possibly spin off the detail lists into a subarticle - "Collectible items in VMK" or something like that. - Brian Kendig 13:17, 13 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Actually you do have an excellent point there! Now that you mention it, it is getting a little out of control. Please feel free to make the recommended edits and changes to the article. In the unlikely event, I don't agree with any portion of the changes, I will discuss it here. I trust in your judgement and so do your best to make the article more concise :) MagicKnight 05:03, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Thank you very much! :) I'll work on it later today. My idea is to make a new article named Virtual Magic Kingdom collectible items, and that can contain a list of all of the items in the game (if anyone wants it to) as well as lists of all of the collectible cards from the parks, and the specific costume items, and if folks want then they can keep it updated with info about what's going to be available when. Meanwhile, if items don't have an effect on gameplay then I'm going to remove them or generalize them in this article. This should keep everyone happy - this article will be more about gameplay and structure, and the new article will be about lists and details. I'll set this up later today, and I look forward to your feedback. :) - Brian Kendig 13:06, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Listing names of staff and testers and "most known" players?

 * List of testers:
 * Yavn/alyuel/AmericaSings/foe/Fusco/lasse/Morgil/nico/SillySyl/Taikuri/Wolfman


 * List of VMK Staff:
 * HOST_Annie/HOST_Bambi /HOST_Hula/HOST_Phinny/VMK_April/VMK_Babs/VMK_Bear/VMK_Bingo/VMK_Blue/VMK_Conga/
 * VMK_Dinky/VMK_Flamingo/VMK_Ione/VMK_KittyCat/VMK_Lion/VMK_LoLo/VMK_Matt/VMK_Mocha/VMK_Nimue/
 * VMK_Ting/VMK_Tink/VMK_Red/VMK_Runo/VMK_Smiles/VMK_Snail/VMK_Sunny/VMK_Zev/VMK_Zoo


 * Most known VMK Players:
 * CL_Nedakh/CL_MrGenie/CL_Danola/CL_Enderz/CL_Poseidon

I just removed the above lines from the article. What's the practical purpose of listing the testers, staff, and "most known" players? These lists aren't official, they're are subject to change without notice, and I don't see how putting up lists (which may already be outdated) will be at all useful to players. Especially the bit about the "most known VMK Players" (sic) - really, what's the point? - Brian Kendig 16:01, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I tend to be anti-"list of testers" as well, but I can think of one good reason to include yavn, alyuel, and maybe SillySyl. They actually do frequently show off rooms prior to release (e.g., the Briar Patch and Expedition Everest rooms), and knowing their names allows you to use the Popular Guest Room search box to search their names, which might give players a clue on which room to check out. I agree that there is very little or NO utility in listing VMK_ and HOST_ staff names. Bezoar 22:10, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Yavn's name/meaning
The section that states Yavn's name is derived from a Hebrew word meaning 'to build' is just a rumor, similar to the “if you rearrange the letters of the name, you get navy” rumor. He actually selected the name from Star Wars episode 4. Yavin is a planet in that film, he dropped the i in the planets name because at that time in the games development they could only have 4 letters in their IDs. I've actually had this confirmed by yavn himself, though there is no way for you to confirm that I really know this, so I’ll understand if you don’t edit it.


 * Thanks for the info, but I've been able to find some web pages which support the idea that 'yavn' might mean 'to build'. And I find it hard to believe that the game would have restricted player names to four letters at any point, especially 'cos eight of the other ten testers have longer names. - Brian Kendig 21:04, 20 December 2005 (UTC)