Talk:Virtual world/Archive 1

Reference_desk/Science#How_much_virtual_space_exists_in_persistent_worlds
Reference_desk/Science Please comment, ∴ here…&spades; 16:33, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

WebWorld?
The first large scale virtual world was WebWorld, which later evolved into Active Worlds

Says who? Is there any reference to this? By what definition of "large scale"? I think this should be removed unless there's any compelling reason to support it. SirBruce 01:45, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Not limited to RPG
I think that it is clear that, with mashups like WikiMapia, that "virtual world" no longer is limited to RPG's. Let us generalize the concept to be inclusive. -- 71.141.245.36 18:21, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Addictiveness
Should there be something on here about the addictiveness of such worlds, or should it be in an individual game section? Also, no mention of the holodeck in Star Trek, in the fiction part? Why not? I didn't add it because, frankly, I figure there must be a good reason for it not to be. (Indeed, Star Trek: The Next Generation had an excellent episode on the possibility of holo-addiction 15 years ago, involving a minor, recurring crew member named Barclay.)209.244.30.221 (talk) 18:45, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

imagined worlds
I'm moving this new stuff to its own section and tagging it as unreferenced. It seems to be stretching the material in the article pretty far, so it at least needs references. If it's related, the refernces need to talk about the relation. If it's just a different idea, then maybe it should be a short comment with a link to another article. C RETOG 8(t/c) 18:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Or, we could just deleted it as an unreferenced short essay. Carl.bunderson (talk) 02:53, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, either way. I figured I'd cut the editor who put it in some slack to fix it, and delete it in a couple days if they didn't. (Besides it's not like this article is a paragon in sourced material.) C RETOG 8(t/c) 03:47, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Heh, good point. I'll defer to your timetable. Carl.bunderson (talk) 04:52, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

O well, time to cut it. C RETOG 8(t/c) 21:00, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Negative Consequences
I re-added the deleted section on negative consequences as it is sourced and is not an argumentative essay. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pelayo el Sabio (talk • contribs) 18:32, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion: SL-type "Virtual world" = "MMOSG"
Honestly, I think that the usage of the term "virtual world" to describe networks such as Second Life, Active Worlds, IMVU(?) and Entropia Universe should be revised to redescribe these entities as MMOSG (MMO social games). They practically have all the features of a persistent non-combat/non-competitive MMO, and trying to remove them into a much more etymologically-flimsy paradigm like "virtual world" (which practically describes all MMOs from a gaming-agnostic perspective) has been, IMO, a long-running travesty. I suggest that we move the coverage of SL-like games into an article that goes further into depth than what this article can hope to ascertain. I'll start. --Toussaint (talk) 19:49, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Editwarred OLIVE section
Okay, with this whole OLIVE section, the total absolute inappropriateness of any academic instructor giving assignments that involve editing Wikipedia aside, and ignoring the pervasive gee-whiz press-release language, this sentence: "The safety of US soldiers is paramount in a war situation." I'm sorry, we're going to put this in Wikipedia? Seriously? Because, y'know, I would tend to think that the safety of US soldiers is not paramount to, for example, a nation that the United States is engaged in military conflict with. &mdash;chaos5023 (talk) 02:16, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

History Section/Pliny
The history section starts with a reference to Pliny, but it doesn't actually say how Pliny contributed to the establishment of virtual worlds. Does anyone here know what was intended there? JacDT (talk) 01:28, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Rewrote the intro to clarify meaning and add more easily accessible refs. JacDT (talk) 00:26, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Persistence
I can't find any references that support the following statement in the "Virtual world concepts" section. It refers to the requirement that virtual worlds be persistent: "Although this is possible with smaller virtual worlds, especially those that are not actually online, no massively multiplayer game runs all day, every day."

Any suggestions for where to look? Or is this statement no longer accurate? It seems rather limited for current day virtual worlds. JacDT (talk) 21:41, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Honestly, the assertion that persistence is anything to do with 24/7/365.24 uptime seems utterly nonsensical to me. Servers reboot; it happens.  Persistence is about state retention, not uptime.  The whole thing about availability should be removed, IMO.  I'll probably do it if you don't, once I've had some time to mull it over. —chaos5023 (talk) 21:49, 31 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I'd say go ahead and remove it. JacDT (talk) 10:49, 2 August 2011 (UTC)


 * ✅. —chaos5023 (talk) 12:29, 2 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Looks good. JacDT (talk) 01:12, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Structure of Article
The overall structure of this article is somewhat sprawling, with a lot of repeated information. I'd like to restructure it to combine similar subsections together. For example, the Economy, Commerical, and E-commerce (legal) could be combined and condensed. JacDT (talk) 17:43, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Cleaned up business education
Wording and grammar mainly. Removed a reference to some research paper, here. In his abstract he talks about openness of knowledge, yet you must pay to read the paper. Clsc11 (talk) 12:25, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Educational assignment - adding a new section to virtual worlds
The section titled 'Who governs Virtual Worlds' has been prepared on my sandbox.

Please get in touch with any objections.

Check out my sandbox

Thank You --Amosjfrancis (talk) 12:37, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Who says it has to be inhabited by humans ?
The movie Tron is primarily about a virtual world inhabited by artificial intelligences. You could say, philosophically, that a chessboard is a virtual world inhabited by chessmen. This article seems to indicate that there has to be some practical reason for a virtual world to be constructed - like letting humans visit it - but that's not an absolute. I think the article should be adjusted to recognize the concept of fictional virtual worlds that aren't inhabited by humans at all.

plus, many children's virtual worlds are inhabited by creatures that range from wolves, to unicorns, to penguins, to sharks. it doesn't have to be even slightly humanoid to be in a virtual world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cinderblaze (talk • contribs) 14:42, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Merge MUVE into this article?
Yes I think we should merge the MUVE into this article since MUVE Article also says that MUVE are called Virtual Worlds. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nonugoel (talk • contribs) 20:14, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

There is a "merge from" template at the top of this article suggesting that MUVE be merged into the article, but no discussion about the proposal that I could find. The template was added by Gmacer (talk | contribs) at 01:07, 20 July 2014. Is this a good idea? Should the merge be done? I don't have a position on the possible merge, but think that we should either do it or make a decision that it shouldn't be done. --Jeff Ogden (W163) (talk) 20:15, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I do not think IMVU should be merged IMVU is more of a chat room with avatars then a real virtual world you can only move to locations that have a prepicked spot to stand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Truempy (talk • contribs) 01:26, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * IMVU is not the same as MUVE. Not sure why you're bringing that up here. Nerfer (talk) 04:01, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Medical section - need for sources
I'm alarmed by the strength and generality of the claims about benefits of virtual worlds to chronically ill and disabled people. The second paragraph has a source referring only to one category of impairment, while the first paragraph is strongly worded and general. As such, I've added the citation needed template at the end of the first paragraph, to refer to the whole paragraph, and figure it makes sense to explain here as well. SamBC(talk) 15:00, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I did find this, although it's a blog and probably doesn't meet wikipedia standards: http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2013/02/second-life-killer-app-help-disabled.html Nerfer (talk) 05:08, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Virtual World Meaning
Virtual world is a term coined by Peter Senge to describe the mental models constructed by workers of their organizations. It still is used widely in organizational theory and therapy. Also in modeling. This article suggests that "virtual worlds" are only computer-generated simulations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.224.70.136 (talk) 12:34, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with this. A virtual world can mean an "imaginary world" as well as other constructions. I would suggest moving the page to Virtual world (computer) or the like, adding a disambiguation page.--K.Nevelsteen (talk) 17:58, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Link to?

 * TRON
 * Neuromancer
 * Lawnmower Man
 * Snow Crash
 * Qwaq
 * Forterra —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.12.137.229 (talk) 00:09, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Also, cross ref to


 * Virtual reality


 * I would like to see a list of virtual worlds, or better yet a table with some of the features. Number of active members would be nice too, but that would probably be hard to get. Nerfer (talk) 04:03, 29 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Would that include all the MMORPG games (see List of massively multiplayer online role-playing games)? Also I'm not sure how this is related to OPs post / section.
 * Once distinctions are clear I guess you could set up a list at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_virtual_worlds --Fixuture (talk) 04:17, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Snow Crash= Metaverse and it is already in the "see also" section. I would recommend REMOVING Second Life and Active Worlds from the "see also" section, on the grounds that they are also just instances of Metavserses. We really don't want to try and list all virtual worlds, do we?--K.Nevelsteen (talk) 18:04, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Range of virtual worlds
The next sentences in the Virtual Worlds concepts section after the persistence discussion are confusing. They refer to a spectrum but don't give one: "As virtual world is a fairly vague and inclusive term, the above can generally be divided along a spectrum ranging from ... " etc. What range is meant? MMORPG to ... Astral Grid multiplayer online real-life games? It needs to be clarified. What are its endpoints? Number of players? (Big to small?) Type of platform? It's not clear to me from the entry. JacDT (talk) 01:11, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I will be working on this article over the next week. This continuum mentioned is definitely noted in many academic sources. I've usually heard it termed as "Ludic" (game-like or -oriented) to "Padaic" (aka "Metaverse") with the typical extremes being WoW and SecondLife. When I have a chance I'll search around and make this clearer. MyNameWasTaken (talk) 00:40, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
 * For the record, Ludic or Paideic doesn't have anything to do with whether it is a virtual world or metaverse; they simply mean "play" vs "game" environment. Although it is true that some social virtual worlds like Second Life, by some considered to be a metaverse, play is more prominent than game activities.--K.Nevelsteen (talk) 18:14, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 5 one external links on Virtual world. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120717015957/http://www.wired.com:80/gaming/virtualworlds/commentary/games/2007/06/games_frontiers_0617 to http://www.wired.com/gaming/virtualworlds/commentary/games/2007/06/games_frontiers_0617
 * Added tag to http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2006/12/post-2.html/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100602114625/http://people.bath.ac.uk:80/jd254/JamesDoodson-UOB-UGradDiss.pdf to http://people.bath.ac.uk/jd254/JamesDoodson-UOB-UGradDiss.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100602114625/http://people.bath.ac.uk:80/jd254/JamesDoodson-UOB-UGradDiss.pdf to http://people.bath.ac.uk/jd254/JamesDoodson-UOB-UGradDiss.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130105102730/http://www.hitl.washington.edu/publications/satalich/ch5.html to http://www.hitl.washington.edu/publications/satalich/ch5.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101226041545/http://nordicworlds.net/ to http://nordicworlds.net/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 22:05, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Virtual world. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.wired.com/gaming/virtualworlds/commentary/games/2007/06/games_frontiers_0617
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090601072358/http://www.virtualworldsnews.com/2009/05/out-of-stealth-8d-taps-language-learners-bots-microtransactions.html to http://www.virtualworldsnews.com/2009/05/out-of-stealth-8d-taps-language-learners-bots-microtransactions.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 10:58, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 4 external links on Virtual world. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added tag to http://www.itleadership.org/content/virtual-world
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120425132301/http://nordicworlds.net/PPublic/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/MISQ-SI-on-VWs_intro1.pdf to http://nordicworlds.net/PPublic/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/MISQ-SI-on-VWs_intro1.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100717083324/http://www.nasarealworldinworld.org/ to http://www.nasarealworldinworld.org/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110106182652/http://www.chaihana.com/virtualjustice.pdf to http://www.chaihana.com/virtualjustice.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110707124515/http://secondlifegrid.net.s3.amazonaws.com/docs/Second_Life_Case_OpenU_EN.pdf to http://secondlifegrid.net.s3.amazonaws.com/docs/Second_Life_Case_OpenU_EN.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 01:44, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Virtual Worlds: Poetic & Intellectual Origins, and Vast Future Horizons! (But not in this article.)
I was astonished not to see referenced in this article the contributions of organizational theorist Herbert Simon and systems philosopher Peter Senge, who discussed the "virtual worlds" that exist in the minds of members of organizations and systems, multidimensional maps and dynamic portraits of their environs and the people, places, things, and events populating them. Such virtual worlds are composed as a matter of living -- higher animals seem to contain them, also -- but also can be taught, given form through communications (what Senge called "The Dance"). These "virtual worlds" were in fact the inspiration for the use of that term during the first "virtual reality" boom, in the 1980s and 1990s; and now during the second virtual reality boom, as a term of art. Here's hoping that a properly expansive and inclusive definition and treatment of virtual worlds supplements or replaces this one, which is only a discussion of videogames at a particular moment in time. Already it's obsolete and its discussion of videogrames is trivial. One thing is clear, these videogames possess neither the longevity nor the centrality to human experience of mental virtual worlds, nor the capacity of today's digital virtual worlds to serve as highly useful R&D, educational, and communication-rich environments, some even with the capacity to evolve and self-propagate. Maybe we'll get the full story next decade .... Bob Jacobson (talk) 04:15, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

February 2019 trash removal
I removed the following Ill-formed, unencyclopedic, and probably self-promotional content, above what appears to be the start of at least the prose part of the legitimate article. I dump it here, inside no-wiki markup, in case an interested colleague wishes to poke thru it looking for anything that might turn out to be salvageable as legitimate content for the accompanying article or other Wikimedia Fndn sites. (Of course it is now in the public domain, unless it was provably already under copyright elsewhere prior to its addition here, at a point in time that should be clear from the edit history of the accompanying article page.) --Jerzy•t 05:06, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I/On!{70447228DustonGBaum|

Game-based real world|virtual reality Ply Galaxies|Start Virtual Realms!} Heatariuson_Heaven_fused_ Hellios']active]

"A Jerzy at Wikipedia joint" --Jerzy•t 05:06, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

neogeography
why isn't this concept discussed in this article? It's a heavily used term for deciding where a virtual world exists and how to measure its location in cyberspace: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.739.5889&rep=rep1&type=pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hawaiisunfun (talk • contribs) 05:11, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Levels
Levels are typically aspects of a game and not of a virtual world (although both can overlap). In what context should levels be added to this article? - T&#949;x  &#964;  ur&#949;  23:16, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * This better? - Fredrik (talk) 00:10, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

delete discussion
Looks like an ad for Whyville - I don't see any proof for the claims about Whyville, and based on watching the founder speak at conferences, I conclude that he is self-promoting in this forum. I suggest removal - iwh

I cannot imagine how you could destroy in such a way the meaning of Virtual World. If the initial one was going in one way direction the last edition is also one way, superficial and too game oriented. A bad work.

From VfD


 * I can't tell if this is a dicdef, original research, or spam. [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 13:43, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * Needs cleanup, but keep. -Sean Curtin 18:36, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * I have completely rewritten the article. It seems to have been created as a sneaky advert for Terranova, started last september.  Terra Nova may warrant its own article, but this isn't it.  This article needs to not focus on one groups goals for virtual worlds and expand to be much larger than what I could do with it. -  T&#949;x  &#964;  ur&#949;  21:52, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * BTW, does anyone remember the names of the first virtual worlds? I participated in a few way way back when.  I remember only 5 o 6 avatars that were only faces in a 2d kinda way and I remember the larger virtual worlds that were all buildings and no people.  I liked that one and had an account on it but can't remember the name anymore. -  T&#949;x  &#964;  ur&#949;  21:52, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep: is pretty good article now EmRick 23:03, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * It was not focusing on a single group. Other, it was also hiting to other form of virtual worlds behind games. Something the current article has completly lost. It is now a superficial, too near to the game world definition Khefri 20:43, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * Recreating your original article (before the edits) and naming it Virtual Universe is not a useful solution. Instead discuss your issues on the Virtual world talk page.  The idea of your original article was good.  Some of the language is still in the article.  It isn't just a concept by those specific bloggers.  It has existed since before the internet. -  T&#949;x  &#964;  ur&#949;  21:16, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. A nice rewrite, Texture! Denni &#9775; 17:04, 2004 Jun 17 (UTC)
 * Keep - a well-written and interesting article now. - TB 11:25, Jun 18, 2004 (UTC)

end moved discussion

simulation
Virtual worlds are computer based and may include simulation, but are not in themselves simulations. The are really what they are and not an approximation of something else. Sphere1952 (talk) 17:00, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

game
A virtual world is a computer based environment where actors come together to communicate with other actors who are logically in the same environment while being physically distant from each other. Most actors are human, but bots are becoming increasingly common. While virtual worlds most often include simulations of "reality" BBS and other early worlds made no attempt to do so, and MUDs generally still do not. Sphere1952 (talk) 17:43, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Virtual worlds lack an important feature of being a game and therefore they are not properly part of gaming, but there are games which use virtual worlds. The general virtual world lacks a pre-defined goal for the user. Sphere1952 (talk) 17:07, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The article consistently conflates Virtual World with things, such as games, which use these Virtual Worlds.

Carina Girvan in 2013
"Girvan states a virtual world to be "a persistent, simulated, and immersive environment facilitated by networked computers, providing multiple users with avatars and communication tools with which to act and interact in world and in real time.” The definition is compiled through literature review, but the sampling is heavily biased towards Second Life, with 47 out of 68 surveyed articles referring to Second Life ... “immersive” has been identified as a qualitative property that is subjective; as in the case of a net-VE ... Girvan does not define shared time or space, which is especially problematic when dealing with video games, instances or ad hoc networking." Nevelsteen (2018) "Virtual world, defined from a technological perspective and applied to video games, mixed reality, and the Metaverse" — Preceding unsigned comment added by K.Nevelsteen (talk • contribs) 04:40, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Mark W. Bell in 2008
"Through literature review, Bell and Robbins-Bell offer the definition of "a synchronous, persistent network of people, represented as avatars, facilitated by networked computers." The term "synchronous" in the definition refers to synchronous communication. Although this seems to be similar to Real-time, synchronous is only applied to communication in their definition; Real-time requires real-time interaction, which includes communication. The term "synchronous" is also ambiguous when referring to communication, for example, Bell and Robbins-Bell state "a synchronous environment does not require the sender of a message to wait for the other party," whereas an synchronous communication protocol is one where the sender does wait for a response. Bell and Robbins-Bell offer a citation for synchronous communication, but the underlying reference simply ensures that users are logged-on simultaneously, which is irrelevant in determining real-time interaction when both users are indeed logged on." Nevelsteen (2018) "Virtual world, defined from a technological perspective and applied to video games, mixed reality, and the Metaverse" — Preceding unsigned comment added by K.Nevelsteen (talk • contribs) 04:43, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Richard Bartle in 2010
"Bartle updated his definition of a virtual world and the persistence criterion, stating a virtual world to be “an automated, shared, and persistent environment with and through which people can interact in real time by means of a virtual self". The automated property specifies a set of rules by which players can change the world, but does not mention how the world can develop internally (previously, a part of Persistence). The definition refers to a shared environment, where "more than one player can be in the exact same virtual world at once," but usage of the term virtual world in the description leads to a recursion; it can be assumed to mean a shared spatiotemporal Virtual Environment, but if the description is to serve as a definition this is problematic. The definition mentions interaction within the virtual world for people but does not mention virtual interaction in the world, for example, software agents. Bartle1 altered the persistence criterion to state “if you stop playing [and] then come back later, the virtual world will have continued to exist in your absence," but Bartle's original definition of Persistence is superior to that of 2010 ("continues to exist and develop internally even when there are no people interacting with it"). The persistence criterion can be assumed to include the nonpausable criterion, by Bell and Robbins-Bell, but fails to account for the difference between persistence in a single player video game and a virtual world. Since time and space are not elaborated on, the definition by Bartle can be said to describe a persistent communication technology, that is, including virtual worlds, but also including technologies such as Google Docs." Nevelsteen (2018) "Virtual world, defined from a technological perspective and applied to video games, mixed reality, and the Metaverse" — Preceding unsigned comment added by K.Nevelsteen (talk • contribs) 04:47, 23 August 2021 (UTC)