Talk:Virtuality (philosophy)/Archive 1

Is this wank?

 * Note - Copied from Talk:Virtual

I am not a philospher, but I smell wank in this paragraph from the article.
 * Recently this conception of the virtual has been challenged and another core meaning has been elicited (Denis Berthier, "Meditations on the real and the virtual" - in French). It is based both upon science (virtual image), technology (virtual world), and etymology (derivation from virtue - Latin virtus). At the same ontological level as "possible," "real," or "potential," "virtual" is defined as that which is not real but displays the full qualities of the real - in a plainly actual - i.e. not potential - way. The prototypical case is a reflection in a mirror: it is already there, whether I am here to see it; it is not waiting for any kind of actualization. This definition allows one to understand that real effects can be issued from a virtual object, so that our perception of it and our whole relation to it are fully real. It explains that virtual reality can be used to cure phobies - which remains contradictory in any conception for which the virtual is a kind of potential.

If you agree, please delete it. ike9898 04:54, 28 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I do not agree with deletion. I would say that the last half of the paragraph is a bit garbled but the first half makes sense to me. The "virtual" is a concept that is informed by and in turn informs philosophical and technological disciplines and the etymological evidence indicates that it the concept has evolved and continues to evolve. Furthermore, whether or not it is "a wank" seems to imply that you are making your decision about what you imagine the authors motives to be rather than the veracity of his contribution.--Betamod (talk) 18:02, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I would say that this article lacks citations. The only published source it cites is an online english dictionary. The article called "Meditations on the real and the virtual" returned no hits on google. I would assume the author added this article himself, since the article is only in French, so the title of the article would most likely also be in French, yet it is not given! Anyone can voice an opinion on the talk page. That does not mean it should be added to the article's entry. I propose deletion. Cameodemon (talk) 06:45, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Referring to any posting as "wank" is just impolite and I would suggest that sort of comment should be deleted. However I am a philosopher and can say how much in agreement with Professor Denis Berthier I am. He has published several books and Google confirms that he is recognized outside this article. -- Eddy (talk 02:00, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

philosophy

 * Note - Copied from Talk:Virtual

It's long past time to turn virtual into a dab page given that there are over 100 articles that start with "virtual". Virtual has been tagged for such a change for over one year. The only objection to the reorganization has been that if the two sections currently in the article were made into separate articles, each would be "too short". To me, that's not a reason to keep the current confusing structure. I'd like to find the best home for the current philosophy section. The possibilities I see are: UncleDouggie (talk) 23:42, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Virtual (philosophy) - New short article linked from the reworked virtual dab page
 * 2) Gilles Deleuze - The main subject of the current text
 * 3) Metaphysics
 * 4) Philosophy

Here is my take, from the little I know about "virtual":

_________________________________________

virtual article outline: [based on M-W, OED or other dictionary, etc.]
 * Definition


 * Historical origin
 * Duns_Scotus (scholastic philosopher)


 * Contemporary use

In computing, for example:
 * virtual_reality
 * v. memory
 * v. server
 * etc.

In philosophy, for example _________________________________________
 * Virtual vs. actual See Deleuze
 * virtual_reality (philosophy)

The philosophy of Deleuze is about the virtual, but I know of no other philosopher who speaks of the virtual in isolation from "virtual reality", except those who study the works of Deleuze or Duns_Scotus - who coined the term "virtual" - and his followers (correct me if I'm wrong).

I would abstain from creating virtual (philosophy) as I don't see it's importance without the context of Deleuze. However, it is possible to create virtual_reality (philosophy). Virtual reality (VR) in contemporary philosophy is used as a metaphor in philosophy for consciousness (Revonsuo), or interpreted in its own right either as technology mediating experience with an ontology of its own (e.g. Philip_Zhai), as media (Philip Brey, computer ethics), or as narrative (Shaun Gallagher, philosophy of mind). The philosophy behind the movie The Matrix was inspired by philosopher Baudrillard and the movie has inspired arguments using virtual reality (David_Chalmers). In addition Michael Heim has written on the metaphysics of virtual reality.

_________________________________________________________

virtual_reality (philosophy) article outline: _________________________________________________________
 * Philosophy of mind (Revonsuo, Gallagher, D. Chalmers)
 * Epistemology (Baudrillard)
 * Metaphysics (Heim)

I assume VR would be considered a low priority article within the scope of the philosophy project. As a concept it has emerged rather late in philosophy.

Ostracon (talk) 13:03, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Under your proposal, what would be the disposition of the text currently in Virtual? UncleDouggie (talk) 22:19, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


 * IMHO (Ostracon (talk)):
 * ____________________________________________
 * Philosophy
 * On different use and meaning of virtual...
 * Scholastic Philosophy (Historical Origin)
 * Duns Scotus
 * Postmodernist Philosophy
 * Deleuze on the virtual vs. actual cf. Deleuze#Metaphysics
 * Baudrillard on hyperreality as virtual reality
 * Virtual Reality in Contemporary Philosophy (alternatively on a separate page - virtual reality (philosophy))
 * Philosophy of virtual reality
 * ... on the potential of virtual reality for thought experiments
 * Metaphysics and Ontological Status
 * Heim, Zhai....
 * Epistemology
 * See Baudrillard (above)
 * Virtual Reality as a thought experiment in the philosophy of mind
 * Revonsuo, Chalmers
 * ____________________________________________


 * Ostracon (talk) 11:25, 5 September 2009 (UTC)