Talk:Vistula/Archive 1

"Formerly German"
User:89.171.5.198 inserted "(?? formerly? see http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalendarium_historii_Gda%C5%84ska)", next to the part where it's stated that Gdańsk had been a German (as in part of the German empire) city. According to the city's article here, that seems to be correct. I can't read Polish, so I'm not sure what the link posted brings to the article, even if articles on different Wikis were a valid reference by themselves. At any rate, the way it was inserted pretty much disrupts the paragraph unless one can read Polish (and even so...).

Thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.77.144.145 (talk) 23:50, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

The whole "alternative versions of the history" is a POV-pushing mess, too. Can anyone please explain how references to Hitler's "lebensraum" ideas have a place in this article? 84.77.144.145 (talk) 23:58, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Let us then discuss the issue of "Lebensraum"
Let me first cite the current text.

"The formerly-German city of Danzig (today Gdańsk) lies near the mouth of the river, where the Vistula meets the Baltic. National-Socialist Germany desired to fully incorporate that city (98.5% of whose inhabitants were native-German-speakers) into Germany and thereby connect East Prussia to the rest of Germany. Poland had designs on the city to give them a seaport, which had been promised them in the aftermath of World War I by the League of Nations. Both sides refused to budge from their positions."

First of all there are basic geographic mistakes here.
 * Between ww1 and ww2 Gdańsk was a free city [whatever it means] with represetatives of Poland and Germany there. So incorporation of Gdańsk into Germany would be a violation of international law.
 * Furthermore, incorporation of Gdańsk into Germany would not connect West and East Prussia anyway, because Poland had a free access tio the Baltic Sea and has built a seaport there - the Gdynia port. So the Garmans wanted to annect Polish territory also. So it was not an issue of "Danzig". So please study a little bit geography, any standard book, before making claims like "Lebensraum" has nothing to do with this.
 * If there were so many Germans in Danzig, then the question is with whom they filled the death camp KL Stutthof in the vicinity. Please visit the museum there to learn more (a n English speaking guide was available at least some time ago).
 * Please read a little bit historical books to learn that Gdańsk was not originally a German city (though it was incorporated into Germany for centuries). It has been a part of Poland for many centuries so you should make more balanced claims between German and Polish rights to the town. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.171.5.198 (talk) 11:52, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Furthermore, the article claims:

"Vistula Basin by means of ethnic cleansing (a tactic employed by the Soviet Union across its empire). In 1945, all Germans from the Vistula basin (along with those in East Prussia and the Oder basin) were expelled from their homes, and their property was seized"

Well, how did it happen that nobody noticed that just before 1945 Germans made an ethnic cleansing in this area. Just mention the names of KL Stutthof, KL Warschau, KL Auschwitz - some marking points along the Vistula river. The "Lebensraum" ideology was the origin of any ethnic cleansing in this area. By the way, there was a German president that was expelled from the vicinity of Lublin. Do you know when he seattled there and where the people were driven who lived in this farm before him, and who were the owners of the land before he came there with his parents? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.171.5.198 (talk) 12:46, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

History
A user:H.J. contribution (disputed) moved from the main article:

The name Vistula is probably "Old-European" ("Venedian" ?) and was recorded by Tacitus in 98 AD in his Agricola and Germania. During that time the Vistula River ran into the Mare Suebicum, which was later called Baltic Sea. According to him, near the delta lived the East Germanic tribes of the Suebi and Burgundians, on both banks the Goths and east of them the Aestii-Prussi, Galindi, Sudauer, Borusci, Veneti, Fenni-Finns, and more. There he described people on the most eastern part of the Mare Suebicum, the Finns.

However, Tacitus' knowledge of the different peoples was second-hand at best; as such, it should be taken with the proverbial grain of salt. He also used the term "Germans" not for describing ethnicity, for example when describing Wenets (Veneds, Venets), Peucyns and Fenns he wrote, that he isn't sure if he should call them Germans, since they have settlements and they fight on foot, or rather Sarmats since they have some similar customs to them.

Ptolemy also recorded the Germanic(?) tribes at the Vistula.

The Vistula river is only a short portage from the Dnieper River, and thence to the Black Sea. Boats could be rolled from one river to the next there. What later became the city of Kiev in the Ukraine was earlier known by its Gothic name of Danapirstadir "City on the Dnieper". The Baltic Sea-Vistula-Dnieper-Black Sea water route was one of the most ancient trade-routes, the Amber road, on which amber and other items were traded from Northern Europe to Greece, Asia, Egypt, and elsewhere.

removing the irrelevant mention of Prussians from the paragraph on the Ukraine: 'The Gothic historian Jordanis (550 AD) wrote about the Aesti-Prussi and a Bajuvarian historian in 850 AD wrote about the Brus.'. Note, it should be Ostrogothic, Jordanes, and Bavarian.

--- Is really Vistula Gothic? I've read that both names Tyniec and Wisla (Vistual) are Celtic and are used as a proofs that Celts lived in southern Poland once... szopen

Wixel, Wicsel or Wyxel is the old German spelling on maps I have seen.

Celts and Germanic people lived in confederations in Germania. (Keltic-Germanic Lugier, Lygier, Vandali. Markomanni- Boii-Suebi (men of the Mark)etc.

Poland did not come into existence till a thousand years later. Therefore Kelts did not have lived in Poland ( even though some areas, where Kelts in Germania lived, came in 1945 under Poland)

Goths lived between Baltic Sea and in all of Ukraine to Black Sea (Krim Goths). Later city of Kiev was called Danapirstadir in Gothic. user:H.J.

I am not a linguist, so i can't argue here. However i used Poland in geographical sense, to describe territories which are called Little Poland and which from 990 or earlier to partitions were Polish. I've read that Celtic presence in Little Poland was quite strong, and as arguments in that book were given names like Vistula and Tyniec, but since, again, i am not a linguist, i have to believe to ethymology given in that book.

I've also read once that Goths indeed lived in Ukraine, but they live amongs Slavic tribes (since generally from two theories about origin of the Slavs, theory which place their homeland between Wisla and Dnieper is more probably than that which place that homeland between Odra and Wisla. szopen

I've read that Jordanes used name "Viskla" and "Vistula" when describing river of Wisla. Anyone had access to original text? szopen
 * Not at hand, but I think that, since we say Vistula in English, that is probably what Jordanes used ;-) JHK
 * The problem is, i had Polish translation of one fragment, and there once Vistula is called Wiskla, and once Wistula, so i am wondering how these were in original text (maybe it is just error of publisher?) szopen

Ethnic name
Vystele or Vystule is the Lithuanian name for the twisty river (vystele, vytele, vystule comes from the word for the twist or a switch recognising the shape)...the same is and with the name weneds or wends ('vandenai'), it is Lithuanian name meaning the people living close to water...like pameranians 'pamarenai' means the people living on the shore of the sea...or the island of Rugen means the island in wich you can grow the rye (rye='rugiai')...in 'pamarenija' is one river called Persante which is the Lithuanian name meaning per-san-taka - through the river which fell into the sea...moreover slavs do not have words for the sea or the amber, so this meams that their ethnic land is somewhere around Slovakia and Kracow...Moreover Oder or Udra in Lithuanian language is the name for the river in which otters lives (otter=udra)78.151.173.242 (talk) 00:02, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Morskie Oko
Picture of Morskie Oko have nothing in common with Vistula River and should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.143.47.208 (talk) 21:02, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Nomenclature
General observation. Thank you to the Lithuanian person for the information, I am not adept at this language. The interpretations of words can be confirmed by me to a considerable extent. My linguistic domain is Polish - English.

WISŁA: The logic that this means a twisting or bent river is correct. The word, from the basis of the Polish language follows a metaphor however. The word element "WIS-" means to HANG !! Eg. Wisi, it hangs, wisiorek a pendant. It also means THE HANGING LOCKS OF THE GODDESS WANDA-WENDA (VANDA), WANDA-WENDY in English. Wanda is the Goddess of the VANDALS - WANDALOWIE and is the Goddess of lakes and rivers. Wincenty Kadłubek a Polish Chronichler born circa 1160 (a bishop I believe, court chaplain to Kazimierrz the Just) shortly after Christianisation gives an explanation.

"The River can be called equally correctly the WIŁA (VISLA) or the WANDALKA". Both are correct and both mean the same thing, to bend or wend. In Polish WĘDA (WENDA) is a generic term far all things BENT. See Brukner, Etymologia Polska. WISŁA, KADŁUBEK DECLARED IS THE TERM OF CHOICE !! Now this determination of the terms of choice could only have been by the SLOVONIC priests prior to Christianity, the catholic priests knew nothing.

The terms WISŁA OR WANDA, as indeed DANA, DUNAJEC (Brukner) are GENERIC terms for rivers, streams and water flows of all kinds. They are based on the rationale of the SLOVONIC FAITH.

So the WISŁA is a metaphor for a river rendering it as the curly Locks of the Goddess of rivers. The term WANDALKA does it more directly refering to the bendiness of a river itself.

Note that the Slovonic faith was universal in Europe once, as is attested by Wanda being known to Germans, English, Celts. Please note the following series of convolutions (pronunciational variants in many languages. Please also note that the "W" is a "V" sound, and always was. The people of Britain mispronounce the Slovonic "W" as a "double U". The Germans prnounce the "W" correctly.

Wanda.pol, Wanda.eng, Wenda.pol (Węda), Wendy.eng, Vandal.eng, Wandal.ger, Wend.eng = Bend.eng, (to wend means to bend), Gwenda = (G)Wenda is Celtic! , Gwendolyn etc.

There was an ancient Celtic presence in Poland hence it is not surprising (in retrospect) that there are linguistic links. Wenden.ger means to bend. English say Vandals, Germans say Wandalen, Poles say Wandalowie, Wendowie. Antowie is Wandalowie with a loss of the "W" and "D" pronounced nas "T". The Germans refer to Poles as the WENDISCHE LEUTE. A Dacian Goddess is called BENDIDA, now at last we can know what that means.

OTTER; English corruption of Water. Originally the Water animal. The adjective became a noun. Same loss of "W" as Antonians for Wantonians. The elemantal form of WATER is the Polish WODA. It belongs to the domain of the WATER GODS, WODAN WANDA, WODAN POLISH AS WELL! The consonantal word element is WOD. The terminology I will postulate is Slovonic. Slovonic is “Of the Slovo = Word of God”. The Slovonic people means people of the word of God. ODRA: Complex etymology and all I will say for now is that it is linked to the religion of the NADODRZANIE, the people living alongside the ODRA. The logic like all things Slovonic is religion based. Note that the Nad- means Upon and is used sometimes in place pf the prefix Po- as in Po-morzanie. The word is a transpose of ORDA. ODRA<>ORDA. The Nadodrzanie one rendition of ODRZANIE, the ODRA people. The RZ is a single sound. (See my site for further proninciation and logic.) A branch of these people show up in Britain at the time of Caesar as the ORDOVICI !! ORDOWICZE <> ORDOWIKE, in Polish. So Polish people did have a contact with Rome and the Roman empire. We now have an interesting awareness of a Polish presence in Britain. The Ordowicze-Ordovici would not be the first and only Poles in Britain or the first and only Poles in contact with Rome.

The question that arises now, is how substantial is the Polish presence in Britain? The LATIN name ORDOVICI can be tracked to gain further information. Now consider the The river ODRA<>ORDA<>ORD!! This last form the ORD is a version typical of English speakers, involving suffix loss and exists in Britain and many places in the English influenced world. There is one such ORD river in Australia where the autor lives.

RUGEN: German corruption of RUGIA, sacred island in Pomerania. This writer is a 'Native Pomeranian'! Pomeranians are Poles! The term could be derived from RYE. I'm convinved however that the term is first and foremost a corruption of the Polish WRUŻIA. Wróżia is the word that is totally consistent with what RUGIA is meant to be, a sacred site of worship. Note "Ż" convolutes as "G". Wróżia <> Wrugia. WRÓŻYĆ means to DIVINE. The place is historically attested as a site of worship and divination. Rugia is the Slovonic Vatican.

"RUG-" is certainly also related to RYE, or REG, but the ratiomale is different. Reg belongs to the domain of the Gods RGIEŁ and REŻĄ the Gods of agriculture. Rgieł is REGel, and Reża = REGana = Regan.eng. These Gods rule over crops including RYE = REG.

The Slovonic people do have a term for the sea it is MORZE. Hence Pomeranians = Pomorzanie (you are dealing with one). The logic of MORZE is that these are the WATERS of MORTIFICATION and the God MOR presides over death, mortification disease etc. In Polish to die is UMRZEĆ, to amortise is UMORZYĆ, death is ŚMIERĆ = sMERt. The other term FOR SEA is quite simply WODA and if there is a vast expanse of it it becomes WIELKA WODA, the GOD WODAN = WODA-ON presides over that. (-ON = he who is)

Poles and Slovonic people do have a word for AMBER. It is a sacred word in the domain of WANDA-WENDA, logically. The term for amber is JANTAR. The current usage of the word BURSTYN or German BERNSTEIN, was thrust on us by the German domination of Gdańsk. JANTAR is a derivatine of WANTAR, with a loss of the "W" as in (W)Antowie, (W)Otter. The word residue, has a leading vowel "ANTAR" which is not allowed, so the "J" is prefixed to get rid of the leading vowel. The word is still used but bursztyn now predominates.

LITHUANIA - LITWA. Derivatine of the Polish LAĆ - LEJE, to pour. The LITE LANE mokre tereny, the wet regions. The God is PLUTON, the god of spitting and wetness, currently also called PRZEPLUT. Consonantal word elements, PL and L. Word elements PLUT, LEJ. The link between Poland deemed Slovonic and Lithuania deemed Baltic is absolute. The two cultures diverged before the current Slovonic divergence into eastern and western and southern Slaves. I am not surprised that the terms are meaningful in Lithuanian. What I believe happened is that the cultures called Baltic today, did not keep up with the massive cultural and linguistic evolution that occured further south. They may not have agreed with the new direction taken and it is possible that the Baltic priests considered the changes a heresy and persisted in maintaining the old traditions resulting in the current divergence.

I have started a site to deal with these matters, you are invited.

See my site http://www.jeleniewski.net/home.html

--Antone1 (talk) 00:33, 28 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Regarding the bottom of the first paragraph World War II And Aftermath - is it really appropriate for one page on Wikipedia to effectively slander another page? Methinks not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.137.75 (talk) 22:05, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

History
A month or so ago I added some tags for POV and lack of citations, hoping they'd be addressed. That was a rather lazy move on my part, so now I'll do my best to fix it up. Anyone know exactly where to begin? It seems almost half of the article has some kind of trace of anti-anyone and everyone that ever lived within 500 miles of the Vistula.

MagicBear (talk) 21:48, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Weichselian glaciation or Vistulian glaciation
To address this - please take a quick check with google or google scholar (or whatever means you will find necessary). The usage of Weichselian outranks the usage of Vistulian here by around a factor 5:1. (no matter the source i've checked). This is simply the most common name given to the period. (for this area).

I'm becoming aware that there are some historic controversies involved in this article, between usage of polish or german names, and i sympathise, but this is a geological term, not a germanism. I suspect that the usage of Vistulian will win out in the end, since it is the name of the river. But currently the name Weichselian is the most common, and thus the one that Wikipedia uses.

I've put in a reference to a polish science paper (published in english), where the river name Vistula is used correctly, and the period named as Weichselian glaciation - to illustrate this. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 15:11, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Alternative version of the history
I am glad that the "ww2 amd afterwards" section of " history" has been removed. But nonetheless I consider the insertion of the statement "Holocaust never happened" by "Revision as of 07:55, 26 February 2009 98.227.183.83 (improved NPOV)" in the alternative history version section with a refernce to a book in Polish that never stated that as a behavior that the 98.227.183.83 should apologize for. It is an act of much more than vandalism. I know that the history is shameful for some people but let us not play the Big Brother here. They should improve their conduct instead so that they are forgiven. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.181.94.250 (talk) 12:44, 17 August 2009 (UTC)