Talk:Vito Rizzuto

Sixth Family
The name the Sixth Family is not given by the authorities to the Rizzuto clan, but is a journalistic invention. - Mafia Expert 17:02, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

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Orphaned references in Vito Rizzuto
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Vito Rizzuto's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "globe": From Rocco Sollecito:  From Federal Bureau of Investigation:  From Commisso 'ndrina:  From Salvatore Calautti:  

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 05:18, 8 April 2018 (UTC)


 * ✅. It was from Rocco Sollecito. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 16:04, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Nationality
Ok. I've taken this here. When it comes to dual nationality. Italian citizenship could be lost: By a man or woman, being of competent legal age (21 years if before 10 March 1975 or 18 years if after 9 March 1975), who of his or her own volition naturalised in another country and resided outside of Italy. Vito Rizzuto immigrated prior to 1975. And turned 21 prior to 1975 as well. He does not hold an Italian citizenship. Nationality: is the state of being part of a nation whether by birth or naturalization Emphasis on 'naturalization'. Why is Vito Rizzuto referred to as Italian in the nationality column, despite not having Italian citizenship, While John Abate, of italian descent is only referred to as Canadian. Despite both being Italian Canadians regardless of Birthplace. Jack Morales Garcia (talk) 08:03, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable. This clearly denotes what a person is to be reffered as and is not consistent of descent, dual citizenship, nor birthplace. And clearly states a person is to be prominently intertwined with a country or place he is more affiliated with. Canada. Surely. Jack Morales Garcia (talk) 13:33, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

And this is from Wikipedia the policy. Jack Morales Garcia (talk) 13:34, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Nationality does not have to do with citizenship. Nationality seems to relate to place of birth MOS:CONTEXTBIO. Vaseline<b style="color:lightgrey">eeeeeee</b>★★★ 13:55, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment The first paragraph of CONTEXTBIO: The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable. If someone was a citizen of Canada, who was primarily notable for his activity in Canada, then Canadian would seem to be the most apt descriptor that person. If someone was a citizen of both countries, and the activities for which they were notable spanned both countries, mentioning both seems appropriate. For the avoidance of doubt, I am not suggesting which of these approaches is the correct one in this circumstance, I'm just offering some advice about community norms, and do not consider myself to be INVOLVED in this matter. Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:Segoe print;color:blue;"> (blether)  14:26, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Nationality is the state of being part of a nation whether by birth or naturalization' factual intellectual information from meanings. I don't know where you got your meaning from. Jack Morales Garcia (talk) 14:40, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 * It is not known if his citizenship was rescinded/or reobtained. Outside of that, with the note provided by Girth Summit, it can be said that being Italian is part of what makes Rizzuto notable (ie being part of the Italian mafia in Montreal). <b style="color:black">Vaseline</b><b style="color:lightgrey">eeeeeee</b>★★★ 15:03, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Well don't that make john Gotti notable. Yet there is no Italian American applicable to that but only American. Everyone know who Vito Rizzuto is. That's the point isn't it. He is categorized within Italian Canadians. Just like any of italian descent. But you can see what makes him notorious is his affiliation with the Cosa Nostra in Montreal. A Canadian city. Jack Morales Garcia (talk) 16:22, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Article 15 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that "Everyone has the right to a nationality," and "No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality." From the Wikipedia page about nationality. Jack Morales Garcia (talk) 16:40, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

If it was dependent on place of birth you wouldn't be able to change it. Nationality and citizenship are alike. Jack Morales Garcia (talk) 16:41, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 * A piece of advice: make your argument clearly and concisely, based only on policies and sources, not on other articles (which may themselves be wrong). As things stand, I don't know what your view is on what the article ought to say about his nationality, or what sources you think support that view. I guess I could trawl through the article history, or look at the articles of other people you're talking about, but I shouldn't have to do that. Make your argument, politely, clearly and concisely. Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:Segoe print;color:blue;"> (blether)  18:30, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Girth, I'll be sure not to repeat that. Jack Morales Garcia (talk) 19:10, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

So... is there anything else? Jack Morales Garcia (talk) 08:37, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , I'm still not clear on what changes you are proposing. Is it the lead, or the info box, or both, that you think need to change? What do you think they should say exactly? Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:Segoe print;color:blue;"> (blether)  09:21, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Both. If you want to highlight his ethnicity you can add an 'ethnicity' column. Jack Morales Garcia (talk) 09:55, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

So gentlemen, Are we perpetuating this? Or is This concluded? Jack Morales Garcia (talk) 10:58, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I do not see any convincing argument or sourced basis for the change. Maybe time to drop the stick. <b style="color:black">Vaseline</b><b style="color:lightgrey">eeeeeee</b>★★★ 15:02, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry? You are dropping it, aren't you? Jack Morales Garcia (talk) 16:29, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry, You still don't see anything 'convincing'. You said nationality is determined by the place of birth. Yet I proved you wrong. And what's backing this up is the meaning attained from a Wikipedia page about nationality. It's not a matter of convincing. Now it's ascertained that this is a matter of a change, one of necessity. Based on the fact that what's written there is wrong. You said that he may have reobtained it? There's nothing what's denoting that he ever did. His rise is based upon his affiliation with a Montreal based crime family. Now tell me. Is this still not convincing for you? Jack Morales Garcia (talk) 16:56, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Nationality is generally determined by country of origin. However, as you stated, "No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality." Sure. So do we have any sources where Vito has stated that he feels 'more' Canadian over Italian or now identifies with having Canadian nationality? I don't think such a source exists—if it does please provide it. Either "Italian" should be in the "nationality" field, or it should be left blank ("Canadian" in both "nationality" and "citizenship" fields are redundant and against MoS). I will lean more on keeping "Italian" in the "nationality" field based on this. <b style="color:black">Vaseline</b><b style="color:lightgrey">eeeeeee</b>★★★ 17:27, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Well. remove the citizenship column then. For it to not look redundant. If anything? There is this, Italian citizenship could be lost: By a man or woman, being of competent legal age (21 years if before 10 March 1975 or 18 years if after 9 March 1975), who of his or her own volition naturalised in another country and resided outside of Italy. Vito Rizzuto immigrated prior to 1975. And turned 21 prior to 1975 as well. He does not hold an Italian citizenship. Jack Morales Garcia (talk) 17:39, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, you don't know if he held Italian citizenship after 1991 or not. And we are certainly not removing "Canadian" from the citizenship field because it is soured that he obtained Canadian citizenship and since it is a different nation than his origin nation, that field is fully warranted. <b style="color:black">Vaseline</b><b style="color:lightgrey">eeeeeee</b>★★★ 17:43, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

I think I just explained the meaning of nationality on Wikipedia's basis to you. Naturalized or Natural born. It's the same in the sense of nationality. No point having 2 different sections about the same thing. Either we can remove nationality or citizenship. Or we can remove both of them. Jack Morales Garcia (talk) 17:49, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, or permanent resident when the person became notable. There is nothing about birthplace, Descent, Ethnicity. Understand? We've got to remove Italian-Canadian. And add only Canadian on the basis he was a prominent Montrealer figure. And because there is no indication whatsoever of his Dual nationality. So what's not there. Shouldn't be mentioned. Jack Morales Garcia (talk) 17:55, 23 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Are you trying to say that nationality and citizenship are the same thing? They're not. 1. Either nationality stays as Italian. 2. Nationality is removed altogether. 3. A source is found that states that Vito identified as a Canadian national fully and then perhaps Canadian can be left in both nationality and citizenship fields (very unlikely). As I said, I am most in favour of option 1. because there is no sourced basis that, for this case with Vito, that he absolved his nationality 'feeling' from his place of birth/origin, Italy. <b style="color:black">Vaseline</b><b style="color:lightgrey">eeeeeee</b>★★★ 17:57, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

There is no nationality feeling. What are you talking about? Nationality is the state of being part of a nation whether by birth or naturalization' it's citizenship. Jack Morales Garcia (talk) 18:01, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Come on. Are we really still going? I've given everything factual and you are now to an extent of 'feeling'. Maybe it's time for you to drop the stick. It's not about any of us winning or losing. But about a necessity of correction. Jack Morales Garcia (talk) 18:04, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * "Everyone has the right to a nationality," and "No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality" That sounds like a feeling, or rather I should say, national identity, which is up to the individual. That is kind of getting off topic anyway, especially since there are no sources of Vito stating his national identity. <b style="color:black">Vaseline</b><b style="color:lightgrey">eeeeeee</b>★★★ 18:05, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Bottom line: Rizzuto was born in Italy, therefore by default is an Italian national unless there is a source that states he does not identify with being Italian. Then, he legally obtained Canadian citizenship, which is separate from nationality. <b style="color:black">Vaseline</b><b style="color:lightgrey">eeeeeee</b>★★★ 18:08, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * This failed, but may be of interest. <b style="color:black">Vaseline</b><b style="color:lightgrey">eeeeeee</b>★★★ 18:10, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Now let me get over this. Citizenship is a registration of a person's mandatory citizen's rights to his country, taxes per say. Thus the word citizenship.

Nationality is an identification of that said person of which country is he categorized within. Now normally these terms are intertwined. But nationality is the exterior. Is outside the country. An international classification. Which categorizes based on which country you are a citizen of. Jack Morales Garcia (talk) 18:17, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Understand? Citizenship: interior Nationality: exterior Jack Morales Garcia (talk) 18:19, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Sounds like WP:OR with no sources. <b style="color:black">Vaseline</b><b style="color:lightgrey">eeeeeee</b>★★★ 18:20, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

What do you mean no sources? I just explained. Your rights and mandatory responsibility as a citizen is internal citizenship while your international categorization is in analogy of all the countries in the world. Jack Morales Garcia (talk) 18:22, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Listen. I've given everything factual for this. While you are answering based on your perception. If you want to involve someone else? Do it. Or just tell me that I'm right and I'll fix this. Jack Morales Garcia (talk) 18:27, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

National identity is perception based, while nationality is a categorization, Citizenship is a legal responsibility mandated upon citizens internally in the country. Jack Morales Garcia (talk) 18:44, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

And besides that page has failed. Jack Morales Garcia (talk) 06:32, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

I've given everything coherent and what accumulates my explanation's consolidation is the back-up by Wikipedia's policy and Change of necessity. While you thought that 'nationality' is POB. then you said it's based on perception. So time for you to drop the stick. Jack Morales Garcia (talk) 14:13, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Pre-review comments
I've been asked to take a look at this as it's prepared for GANR by. Without doing a source review, I've got a few comments:
 * The lead seems to have more detail on Rizzuto's family than himself
 * Vito immigrated with his family to Canada... is a run-on sentence, and will more clearly convey the information if broken up/rephrased
 * Another son is Leonardo Rizzuto, and the other is his daughter - this first refers to the preceding sentence talking about one son, then switches to referring back to several sentences earlier talking about his 3 children. This is technically incorrect, as spatial references should be uniform (referring back to the same part) if the subject is not being made clear (i.e. "and the other child is..." would be suitable, though a better phrasing would be a general improvement here).
 * The speculation of assassination should be made more clearly just speculation, if this is indeed the case: the tone of how unconfirmed but common rumors are handled should reflect the tone in the RS
 * Kingsif (talk) 19:42, 6 January 2021 (UTC)