Talk:Vladimir-Suzdal

Can someone add the Russian word? -- Kaihsu 21:04, 2004 Feb 10 (UTC)

Yuri Dolgorukii on this web-page is the sixth son. Why is it so?

Trasliteration
Just added roman transliteration to cyrillic entries in the intro. They should be correct... T. S. Rice 05:19, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Mostly, yes, but accents are never shown in transliteration. I made the corrections, although I am not entirely sure we even need translit in this case.&mdash;Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 16:06, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Possibly true. If you feel that it's kind of a hindrance, you can feel free to take it out. T. S. Rice 02:38, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't see it as a hindrance. Still, if someone else does to the point of feeling it would be necessary to remove it, I am not going to restore it back.  Thanks for taking time to respond.&mdash;Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 04:30, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Why you keep talking about Lithuanian lands (even a city Kiev, was ancient Lithuanian city Kaunungardas, like Kaunas in Lithuania) under Rus occupation as ruthenian lands? Later Lithuania regained her lands by creating GDL. All toponims and city names indicates the russian occupation of Balts' lands starting Kiev in which they placed their capital, however whole Belorus, Briansk and Smolensk was still inhabited by Lithuanians who later regained their independence by creating GDL. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.222.112.200 (talk) 21:44, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Duchy of Vladimir
Should Duchy of Vladimir redirect here? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:32, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * And wouldn't Duchy of Vladimir (200+ hits) or Principality of Vladimir (600 hits) be a better name? Vladimir-Suzdal has 700+ but is less informative... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 00:56, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Unexplained changes
Please discuss changes to the dates and other parameters in the infobox. The most recent unexplained reversion includes a reference that supports the existing version of the page, listing Alexander III as the last Grand Duke of Vladimir, with a reign ending in 1331. It does not list Ivan I among the leaders of Vladimir, nor support an end-date of 1340. Please do not make changes without providing edit summaries, and please do not continue to make these unsupported changes of dates and other parameters without gaining consensus here first. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 07:08, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Move warring
I have locked moving of the article. If you want to move the article please file a proper WP:RM. I do not have my own opinion on the matter, although through years of editing I learned to respect opinions of User:Ghirlandajo Alex Bakharev (talk) 08:00, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

1157–1331?
He lived 174 years? Really?2A00:1028:83B2:106A:7101:3D9F:3626:2F20 (talk) 19:47, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

When did the princes of Vladimir become grand?
The notion that Vladimir(-Suzdal) became a "grand principality" upon the Sack of Kiev (1169) appears to be invented tradition. The earliest reference to a "grand prince of Vladimir" I can find in Martin 2007 is p. 164: As early as 1243, Prince Iaroslav Vsevolodich (...) was awarded not only the title of grand prince of Vladimir, but also that of grand prince of Kiev. That's it. All other references to Vladimir or Vladimir-Suzdal being a "grand principality" and its head a "grand prince" apparently date from later. It may be that in fact the title of "grand prince of Vladimir" is entirely post-1240, and has no precedent in pre-Mongol, Kievan Rus' times. I'm curious how historiography has resolved this question.

It is similar to how we know the earliest princes of Kiev weren't yet consistently called grand either, during their own lifetimes, by themselves, until most probably Yaroslav the Wise (see Dimnik 2004). Later attributions don't count. Nor do honorifics count; e.g. some chronicler saying in retrospect that this or that prince should be known as Foo the Great as an honorific (this appears to have happened with Volodimer/Vladimir the Great); that's not part of the dynastic title we're interested in. We want to know what is historically accurate for the time in which said prince lived, and is referred to in the sources of that time. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 10:41, 17 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Martin 2007, p. xv: 1157: Prince Iurii Dolgorukii died; Prince Andrei Iur'evich Bogoliubskii became prince of Vladimir
 * Martin 2007, p. xv: 1177: (...) Prince Vsevolod Iur'evich became prince of Vladimir
 * Martin 2007, p. xvii: 1212: (...) Prince Vsevolod of Vladimir died; Prince Konstantin Vsevolodich became prince of Vladimir (...)
 * Martin 2007, p. xvii: 1218: (...) Prince Konstantin Vsevolodich died; Prince Iurii Vsevolodich became prince of Vladimir (...)
 * Martin 2007, p. xvii: 1220: Prince Iurii Vsevolodich of Vladimir attacked Volga Bulgars
 * Martin 2007, p. xvii: 1238: Mongols conquered Vladimir; Mongols defeated northern Rus' princes at Battle of Sit'; Prince Iurii Vsevolodich of Vladimir killed at Battle of Sit'; Prince Iaroslav Vsevolodich became prince of Vladimir
 * Martin 2007, p. xviii: 1243: Prince Iaroslav Vsevolodich confirmed as prince of Vladimir by Batu, khan of Golden Horde
 * (more mentions of "prince of Vladimir")
 * Martin 2007, p. xviii: 1263: (...) Prince Alexander Nevsky died; Prince Iaroslav Iaroslavich became grand prince of Vladimir (...) (boldening by me)
 * So Martin is a bit inconsistent, as she calls Iaroslav Iaroslavich the first explicitly grand prince of Vladimir in 1263 in her chronological overview, but on p. 164 makes the first reference to Iaroslav Vsevolodich being made / confirmed as grand prince of both Vladimir and Kiev by Batu in 1243. So maybe she's confused, or her sources are confused. This is something we'll need to find out. But there's no grand before 1243 so far... Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 10:59, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * PS: Iaroslav Vsevolodich = Yaroslav II of Vladimir. This is the first grand mentioned by Martin 2007. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:27, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Charles J. Halperin 1987 has the first unambiguous reference to a grand prince of Vladimir on p. 51, also concerning Iaroslav Iaroslavich / Yaroslav Yaroslavich, i.e. Yaroslav of Tver, grand prince of Vladimir 1263–1271: Two years later [1269], according to the Novgorod First Chronicle, the "great Vladimir baskak Argaman" helped grand prince Yaroslav impose his will on a recalcitrant Novgorod and then frightened off the German knights threatening the city. Well, that would be relatively easy to check whether the NPL actually uses the term "grand prince" for Yaroslav sub anno 1269. But we're interested in whether it is actually used earlier than 1243. Something like this should be found in the Kievan Chronicle in the Hypatian Codex or the Suzdalian Chronicle in the Laurentian Codex. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:09, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * It helps that I already went through the Kievan Chronicle and Radziwiłł Chronicle versions of Andrey Bogolyubsky in 1174 (misdated by both to 1175).
 * The Kievan calls him кнѧзь "prince": кнѧзь же вьзрѣвъ на н҃бо "The prince looked upon heaven" (this is probably an interpolation). Later it narrates: горожанѣ же Бо҃любьци розграбиша домъ кнѧжь. "But the townspeople of Bolyubovo [sic] plundered the house of the prince." ("Bogolyubovo" is misspelt, and "the noblemen" are omitted).
 * The Radziwiłł also mentions the latter: Горожане же боговлюбьскып' и дворяне разграбиша дом княжь "The townspeople and the noblemen of Bogolyubovo plundered the prince's house".
 * If Andrey's act of sacking Kiev in 1169 had made him the "grand prince of Vladimir", why don't these chronicles call him "the grand prince", but just "the prince", by the time he was killed in 1174? Perhaps simply because nobody considered Andrey to have been a "grand prince" at all, ever.
 * These chronicles are some of the closest materials we've got to the events. They were both copied as written here in the 15th century, by which time Vladimir-Suzdal was already gone, although there was still bitter rivalry over its legacy between its successors Tver, Moscow and Nizhny Novgorod-Suzdal. If I'm not mistaken, all three were by that time claiming to be "grand principalities". And yet, they don't retroactively call Andrey a "grand prince", just a "prince" (even though they could have, and had reasons to). I'm curious if the Suzdalian Chronicle of 1377 has a different view. But I'm working on the tentative conclusion that Vladimir didn't become grand in 1169. At least not yet. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:44, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Mellk Could you help me with translating this passage from the Suzdalian Chronicle to English?
 * Петръ же ѥму ѿтѧ руку десную. оубьѥн же бъıс̑ в суб̑ту на ночь. (...) горожане же Бо҃любьскъıи и дворане разграбиша домъ кнѧжь.
 * I think this means (edit, corrected by Mellk): "And Peter cut off his right hand. He was killed on Saturday night and dead at sunrise in the morning. (...) The townspeople and the noblemen of Bogolyubovo plundered the prince's house".
 * The Suzdalian Chronicle seems almost word for word the same as the Radziwiłł Chronicle here. The only differences seem to be that Radziwiłł says "And he was killed on Saturday night", and that his "dossiers" (дсш) were plundered rather than his "house" (домъ). Can you confirm or correct me on this, and that all three call Andrey just a "prince" and not a "grand prince"? Thanks! Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:11, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The Laurentian text says "on Saturday night" ("в суб̑ту на ночь" = "в суботу на ночь"). So, "Peter cut off his right hand. He was killed on Saturday night and dead at sunrise in the morning... The Bogolyuby townsmen and nobles pillaged the house of the prince." (Bogolyubovo is the current name for the town where his residence was). Can you provide a link for the Radziwiłł text you used? Mellk (talk) 21:01, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, apparently, his medical examination tells a slightly different story than that written in the chronicles. But I have not looked into this closely. Mellk (talk) 21:01, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Mellk Thanks so much! Yes, the Radziwiłł text is taken from page 138 of . Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:12, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * This also says "house", the PDF viewer just picked up the characters incorrectly. Mellk (talk) 12:48, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Mellk Ah you're right! It says дом, not дсш (I didn't copy it correctly). The Suzdalian (Laurentian) just uses an extra hard sign to spell the same word: домъ. wikt:домъ/Old Ruthenian versus wikt:дом/Russian (wikt:дім in modern Ukrainian). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:34, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Mellk Ah you're right! It says дом, not дсш (I didn't copy it correctly). The Suzdalian (Laurentian) just uses an extra hard sign to spell the same word: домъ. wikt:домъ/Old Ruthenian versus wikt:дом/Russian (wikt:дім in modern Ukrainian). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:34, 18 July 2023 (UTC)


 * On a separate note, Perfecky's 1973 English edition of the Galician–Volhynian Chronicle (GVC) makes a brief mention of a "grand prince of Suzdal" sub anno 6732 (1223/1224, related to the Battle of the Kalka River): An enemy, hitherto unknown, appeared: the godless Moabites called Tatars [who] attacked the Polovcian land. (...) All the princes held council in Kiev and decided that it would be better for them to engage the Tatars in a foreign land than in their own. At that time Mstislav Romanovic was reigning in Kiev, Mstislav [Svjatoslavic] in Kozel'sk and Černigov, and Mstislav Mstislavic in Halyč. These were the senior princes of Rus'. Jurij, the grand prince of Suzdal', was not present at this council.
 * Apart from the irony of claiming "All the princes held council" before saying one of them wasn't present, this appears a pretty unambiguous reference to Yuri II of Vladimir and Suzdal being a "grand prince" in 1223/4, although the GVC connects that title to Suzdal rather than Vladimir.
 * There is another reference under the year 1230: Then after some time had elapsed, Vasilko went to great prince Jurij in Suzdal' [to attend] the wedding of his brother-in-law. This is evidently the same Yuri II of Vladimir, now called "great prince of Suzdal'". "great prince Jurij" is mentioned again under 1237.
 * Under 1245/6, GVC reports about his successor Yaroslav II of Vladimir: Jaroslav, the great prince of Suzdal', was poisoned and Mixail, the prince of Černigov who would not worship their bush was stabbed to death with a knife together with his boyar Fedor.
 * This suggests that the author(s) of the GVC (completed in the late 13th century) regularly recognised a "grand/great prince of Suzdal" by at least the early 1220s, apparently shortly before the Mongol invasion. That's 1 generation earlier than Yaroslav II in 1243 (identified by Martin 2007), but still far away from Andrey in 1169/1174. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:59, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * If I remember correctly, the Hypatian Codex makes a mention of Bogolyubsky as a grand prince, but I need to check to make sure. Mellk (talk) 12:54, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * You mean the Kievan Chronicle part of the Hypatian Codex? That's possible, but in the passage above about his death he is simply called кнѧзь, without any вели́кий or variation thereof. But you are probably much better equipped at checking this than I. I can still only read it with great difficulty using transcription and translation machines and dictionaries. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:42, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I've been taking a few looks at the Suzdal-Vladimirian Chronicle (SVC) as preserved in the Laurentian Codex. In the narrative surrounding his death sub anno 1175 [sic], and his eulogy / panegyric, Andrey is referred to as a velikiy knyaz a few times, though more often simply as knyaz, and it is unclear which city this title is supposed to refer to. (Kiev? Vladimir? Suzdal? Bogolyubovo?). It seems more like part of an elaborate effort to praise and sanctify him as a Christian martyr than a serious attempt to describe his dynastic, noble, political status. From the official Lav. Codex website, https://expositions.nlr.ru/LaurentianCodex/_Project/page_Show.php, Folio 124, modern Russian translation:
 * Об убиении Андрея. В том же году убит был великий князь Андрей, сын великого князя Георгия, внук Мономаха Владимира. Об убиении его после скажем. Этот благоверный и христолюбивый князь Андрей с молодости Христа....
 * About the murder of Andrey. In the same year grand prince Andrey, son of grand prince Yuri, grandson of Monomakh Vladimir, was killed. About his murder we shall speak afterwards. This blessed and Christ-loving prince Andrey from the youth of Christ...
 * The SVC goes on and on for two more folios (that is, 4 pages) about what a devout and Christian prince Andrey was, and that he shed his blood for Christ, and so on. It's not really what you would call a disinterested account of what happened. (Random quote: For that you, Andrey, worthy of God, have received a victorious crown for your courage, namesake of God. Another one: And he was killed on the 26th day of June, on the memory of the holy apostles Peter and Paul, on the Saturday at night.) In passing during the actual story, he is just called knyaz, or in this case "blessed knyaz": они туда, где блаженный князь лежал в спальне, и силою проломали двери у сеней. They went to the place where the blessed prince lay in his bedroom, and by force broke down the doors to the hayloft. And now comes the part which I've explored before on the Andrey talk page: Петр же ему отрубил руку правую. Убит же он был в субботу ночью But Peter cut off his right hand. And he was killed on Saturday night. (The number of times that the Suzdal-Vladimirian Chronicle states that "Andrey / he was killed / murdered" is quite repetitive.) But just like the Radziwiłł and Kievan Chronicle, the SVC reports the following: Горожане же боголюбские и дворяне разграбили дом князя, и мастера, The townspeople of Bogolyubsky and the nobles plundered the house of the prince and the master,. It says knyaz, not velikiy knyaz.
 * Finally, the eulogy comes to an end with hagiographic statements like:
 * Те блага сподобившись видеть, во веки радуешься, Андрей, князь великий, дерзновение имея к Всемогущему и благами богатейшемуна высотах сидящему Богу, молись помиловать князя нашего и господина Всеволода, своего же присного брата,...
 * Having been able to see these blessings, you rejoice forever, O Andrey, the great prince, having boldness to God Almighty and richest in blessings sitting on the heights, pray to have mercy on our prince and lord Vsevolod, your own brother,...
 * I don't think князь великий should be understood as a formal court title and translated as "Grand Prince (of [city])", but as a "great prince", a prince who did wondrous deeds and should be praised. I can understand why modern readers might be confused, but historically, dynastically, it makes no sense to think of Andrey as a Grand Prince of either Kiev or Vladimir. I have yet to find a compelling reason to draw that conclusion. NLeeuw (talk) 22:53, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
 * , pages 240 to 246, show that in the Laurentian, Radziwill and LPS versions of the Vladimir-Suzdal chronicle, the phrases кназь же велликыи or variations thereof are not applied until 1185b, in the case of Vsevolod Yurievich "the Big Nest" of Vladimir. It's not clear why he was suddenly considered a "grand prince" rather than just a "prince". Christian Raffensperger (2021) had noted that the title velikiy knyaz doesn't really appear in pre-Mongol Rus' chronicles, except as a sanctifying honorific to refer to a prince who has died (as I observed above about Andrey, and as Dimnik 2004 observed about Volodimer I Svyatoloslavich). It's unlikely that such a move would be accepted by other chroniclers. Vsevolod was briefly prince of Kiev in 1173, but the appelation of velikiy knyaz all stem from the second half of 1185. It would seem that Vsevolod never really "became" grand prince of Vladimir in any formal sense; he just began calling himself that, and instructed his chroniclers to call him that, until eventually foreign chroniclers accepted it as if it were a fact as well through customary law. As I examined above, the chronicler of the Galician Chronicle seems to have recognised a velikiy knyaz from Suzdal in the 1220s, so it took at least some 40 years for other princes to consider the prince of Vladimir a velikiy knyaz. Hopefully I'll be able to find a reliable source for it sooner or later, but this appears to be a preliminary solution to the age-old question.
 * NLeeuw (talk) 19:13, 13 March 2024 (UTC)